Washingtonpost.com: Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.) was online to talk about his efforts to rein in the recording industry’s aggressive legal war against people who illegally trade music online. Piracy is wrong, Coleman agrees, but so too are some of the industry’s tactics.
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washingtonpost.com: Good morning Senator Coleman, thanks for joining us today. The war over online file swapping has been escalating in recent months, as was made clear a hearing you presided over last month. Having failed in efforts to shut down networks like Kazaa and Morpheus, the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) has mounted a legal blitz against individuals who trade songs online. The RIAA says the lawsuits are among the few effective tools they have to combat music piracy, but you and others have expressed concern about their tactics. Can you describe your concerns?
Sen. Norm Coleman: Good morning. It’s great to be here. I’ve noted publicly that law and technology in this area seem out of sync. This forum is a great opportunity for policy and technology to be in sync.
First we recognize that file sharing is wrong. It is taking without compensation someone else’s property.
But the question is how do you stop what 60 million Americans are already doing? I have three concerns about the RIAA approach.
First, the broad grant of subpoena authority has the potential to sweep in folks who may not have done anything wrong.
Second, the civil penalties in this area, including fines up to $150,000 per song, are clearly excessive. They can be used to intimidate and threaten folks who may or may not have done anything wrong.
Finally, I also have concerns about the impact on personal privacy protection. The technology used by the RIAA and P2P networks has the potential to undermine personal privacy protections.
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Bangor, Me.: What’s your reaction to the RIAA’s latest news that they will send warning letters before dumping lawsuits on suspected file sharers?
Sen. Norm Coleman: Good first step. This action still doesn’t solve the underlying concerns I raised before. You are not going to change the behavior of 60 million people through the use of lawsuits alone.
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Macon County Line: I heard you want to introduce a bill that would affect the recording industry’s campaign against file sharing. What will it do?
Sen. Norm Coleman: We anticipate having one more hearing before we begin looking at legislation. There is existing legislation that would change the subpoena process. I am in support of that in concept, but we need to hear from some of the technology companies before we finalize any legislative approach.
I do not believe the solution to this problem lies simply in legislation.
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Lyme, Conn.: It is my understanding the music industry has chosen a few unfortunate people and decided to make examples of them by suing them for large amounts of money in hopes of deterring others. Wouldn’t it be more effective, and fairer, if the industry sought smaller fines from a larger number of people? If people thought they could actually be caught and could face reasonable penalties, wouldn’t that deter more people?
Sen. Norm Coleman: That is a very reasonable approach and one we are looking at closely. The punishment needs to fit the crime.
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Greenfield, Mass.: How do you feel about the RIAA blaming online music piracy for their drop in sales. Do you think other factors, like the economy, could be just as much to blame?
Sen. Norm Coleman: The online piracy is certainly a factor in sales reduction, however so are high prices. It is clear that consumers deserve to have more safe, legal, affordable online downloading options.
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Lansing, Mich.: Do you think that the recording industry is in part to blame for the current degree of piracy of copyrighted music? What I do not understand is why it has taken approximately two years since the shutdown of Napster for a convenient legal outlet for mp3s to emerge, such as Apple’s iTunes. I do not know if the executives of the music industry ever tried listening to mp3s on their computers and realized that this was a extremely convenient way to listen to music (more so than compact discs) that was here to stay.
Sen. Norm Coleman: I do believe the industry should have more aggressively addressed consumer needs a long time ago.
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Red River Rock, Ark.: What do you think of the new guy running the recording industry? He doesn’t seem like a “music” kind of person. What sort of experience does he bring to this situation?
Sen. Norm Coleman: I am a big fan of the “new guy.” Let me just say this, the issue here is not just a music issue, it is a meeting consumer needs issue. It’s solving a problem in a “reasonable way” issue, and the new guy, Mitch Bainwol, has a history of getting that done.
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Arlington, Va.: What is your reaction to the latest word that the RIAA is sending warning letters before filing anti-piracy lawsuits? Is this enough, or just “a step in the right direction”?
Sen. Norm Coleman: As I stated before, a step in the right direction.
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washingtonpost.com: Senator Coleman, many of our participants are asking questions about the state of copyright law in general. Do you think 1998’s Digital Millennium Copyright Act struck the right balance between the rights of consumers and those of intellectual property owners? If not, what can Congress do to adjust that balance?
Sen. Norm Coleman: I think one of the problems with the 1998 DMCA is that it was created before the advent of KaZaA, Napster and the P2P technology that is used today to facilitate illegal downloading. This is what I mean when I say the law and technology are not in sync.
It is a great challenge for Congress to “adjust that balance” because technology changes so much quicker than the legislative process.
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Salt Lake City, Utah: I have heard many people say that it’s not stealing if you don’t sell it. How do we educate the public?
Sen. Norm Coleman: First, the P2P can do a better job of letting users know that trading copyrighted music online is illegal.
Secondly, the industry should use the same moxie it employs to sell its music, to educate consumers.
Third, we all have to recognize the challenge of educating young people that something that technology makes so easy; that you can’t touch or feel, is still wrong.
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Washington, D.C.: Gartner reports that a substantial number of P2P users utilize the same to “sample” music. How often have you bought a $20 album, only to find a single song worth listening to. This accounts for the popularity of “listening posts” popular at music stores. Do you think industry is missing the opportunity to use P2P as a marketing tool?
Sen. Norm Coleman: Yes.
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Phoenix, Ariz.: I am concerned that in an effort to protect copyrights, the FCC and congress are poised to mandate anti-copying devices in consumer electronics that will also prevent me from moving my own legally-purchased music and video between my home, car, and portable devices, or recording TV programs for time-shifting. (Such as transferring CDs to my iPod, or watching DVDs on my laptop computer.)
How do you view the apparent tradeoffs between preventing unlawful digital duplication through technology with what are today considered fair use by honest consumers?
Sen. Norm Coleman: This is a very complex issue. I share your concerns but on the other hand we need to bring the hardware and software industries into this discussion. They need to be part of the solution. I anticipate my next hearing will address some of the technology issues.
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Alexandria, Va.: What’s the atmosphere like up there when it comes to file sharing. I understand there are a couple of bills that vaguely talk about copyright protection (I think this is in the House) but is there any will to change the legal environment beyond the bill you’re proposing?
Sen. Norm Coleman: Though everyone would say that they want a fair and balanced approach there is no consensus today on how to achieve that approach. The reason I hold hearings is not to rubber stamp preexisting views, but to try to find common ground that protects the future of the entertainment industry while at the same time meeting consumer needs and treating them more fairly.
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Tupelo, Miss.: What’s your biggest objection to the RIAA subpoenas? Are you concerned about how easy it is for the industry to get them? how freely they seem to be doling them out? or how consumers can be hit by lawsuits without ever being informed that they are the subject of a corporate investigation?
Sen. Norm Coleman: All of the above.
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Last Mile Gorge, Penn.: I must be the only person in the world besides Cary Sherman and co. who thought going after the 12-year-old girl was a good idea. Stealing is stealing, even if you’re on a ventilator. Do you concur?
Sen. Norm Coleman: I agree if you are stealing and you are on a ventilator, it’s wrong- but we don’t pull the plug. The penalty has to fit the crime. I’m concerned about making an example of a few people to change the behavior of 60 million people. What is the fair response to the actions of this 12-year old honor student.
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Arlington, Va.: What do you hear from constituents on this issue of the RIAA’s lawsuits? Has it been a hot-button one, or overblown by the press?
Sen. Norm Coleman: For a while I was getting more comment about this than the war in Iraq. I have a 13-year old and a 17-year old. Like many other parents, we know this is something our kids are dealing with.
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Arlington, Va.: Does any other industry group enjoy the powers given to the RIAA? For example, can the Business Software Alliance get a clerk to issue a subpoena in cases of suspected software piracy?
Sen. Norm Coleman: The authority under the DMCA is not given to the RIAA specifically, rather it is given to any copyright holder. Some of my colleagues have raised concerns about pornographers utilizing the same authority to investigate the lives of whomever they choose.
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Edina, Minn.: How do you think the recording industry moves away from penalizing P2P users and moves toward deploying their own network of legal file sharing? In other words,when do you think they will capitalize on the technology rather than punishing people that are ahead of the curve?
Sen. Norm Coleman: The long term solution to this problem will not come about solely through lawsuits. That is simply one tool.
I do not think the answer lies in simply more legislation. The solution must be led by the industry and be a combination of law, technology, and creative business solutions. The industry has a right to be protected, but you have to do a better job of meeting consumer needs.
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St. Paul, Minn.: You say the penalties are too high, but clearly record companies are in a tight spot here. With 60 million Americans trading songs, they can only hope to go after a tiny fraction of the offenders. Don’t you think they need stiff penalties if they hope to scare anyone away from piracy?
Sen. Norm Coleman: When the current law provides a penalty of up to $150,000 per illegally downloaded song. We know that penalty will never be imposed. My concern is the threat of that penalty is so severe that you force someone who didn’t do anything wrong to settle because of fear of bankruptcy.
Lorraine Sullivan, one of the witness at the hearing related that her discussions with the RIAA were like talking to an abusive debt collection agency. I have concerns about using the law to threaten people. I don’t think you are going to change the behavior of 60 million consumers by the threatening a few individuals with lawsuits.
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Washington, D.C.: You mention your myriad concerns both with the RIAA subpoenas and with the damages awardable under existing copyright law, but the record industry is bleeding and these lawsuits seem to be the only bandage that works. What kind of an olive branch you’re willing to extend to artists so they can track down the people that steal from them?
Sen. Norm Coleman: Artists have a legitimate right to be compensated for their work. My goal is a stronger recording industry with more workable protections for artists. Testimony at the hearing reflected consumer backlash to the RIAA litigation strategy.
As stated before, more safe, legal, affordable downloading options will provide greater opportunity for artists to be compensated for their work.
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Salt Lake City, Utah: What do you feel would be a fair and proportional punishment for unauthorized file swapping?
Sen. Norm Coleman: We are trying to sort that out right now. The purpose of my hearings is, in part, to help determine the answer to that question.
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Cherry Hill, N.J.: OK, everyone’s asked you whether you’ve been a file sharer. Now, are your kids? What would you do if you had a subpoena served and you end up under the lawsuit gun because one of your kids couldn’t keep away from a free copy of that latest Avril Lavigne single?
Sen. Norm Coleman: First, I’d be pretty mad at my kids. I’ve had the discussion with them, but as any parent can tell you, it is difficult to control the actions of even the most responsible teenager.
The reality is I would have the resources and knowledge of the law to deal with this issue in a way in which it would not be much more than an embarrassment. However, many consumers like Lorraine Sullivan are frightened by the prospect of litigation. What will it cost? What are the penalties? How will I pay?
Again, I want to ensure the penalty fits the crime. I also want to ensure the people who are targets of investigations are in fact those people who engaged in the illegal downloading.
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Thunder Bay, Minn.: Senator – good to “see” you online. You say $150K is too much to demand for one stolen song. Last I checked they haven’t exercised that clear legal right to go for that much cash. If they’re suing people and settling for $2,000-$3,000 a pop — and they’re suing 1000s of song swappers — it seems like the RIAA already is operating with forbearance. That said, what’s a good maximum pairer damages award?
Sen. Norm Coleman: Glad to see Thunder Bay online. Two observations. First I am pleased the RIAA seems to be using forbearance however, the law does not require that and gives what I think is excessive broad discretion to protect their copyright interest, (both in subpoena power and potential penalties).
Again, part of this process of holding hearings is to find the answer to that question.
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Binghamton, N.Y.: Sen. Coleman – good morning – I know it’s a little off-topic, but who were some of the acts you worked with before you were in Congress?
Sen. Norm Coleman: I was a roadie for ten years after 1969. I drove a truck for Jethro Tull. Carried some equipment for Savoy Brown. Did concerts at both the Spectrum in Philly, and the racetrack at Laurel, Maryland. One of my jobs was to stand behind the big marshall amps and make sure they didn’t fall over. In those days there was no wireless technology.
That was a long time ago in a universe far, far away.
It was fun being online, I will try to get to some of the unanswered questions later. If you have any additional comments or questions, please contact me at opinion@coleman.senate.gov
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washingtonpost.com: Unfortunately we’re out of time. We would like to thank Sen. Coleman for taking the time to join us and our audience for asking so many thoughtful questions.
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