spanish general election

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by kiwibank, Mar 18, 2004.

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  1. kiwibank

    kiwibank Member

  2. Lord_of_the_Dense

    Lord_of_the_Dense Deicidic Chipmunk Revue Established Member

    Sure it is! I have no comment about Spain!
  3. The Spanish people are entitled to speak their minds, vote for who they wish, and request their troops be brought home. However, when the terrorists, after killing 200 of their people, claim the Spanish's people election as a victory, I would be up in arms if I was a Spanish voter. The world should come together and get rid of the al queda terrorist thugs...once and for all.
  4. babarfloyd

    babarfloyd Lost in a sea of madness

    I for one am glad to see the Spaniards step up and vote out their leader for lying to them and for not listening them in regards to Iraq (over 80% of Spain was against it). It sets a nice precedent for us to follow this November, which I think the US people will overwhelmingly follow....we are just as sick and tired as they are about our leaders lying to us.

    I also don't see how this is a victory for the terrorists since the new leader said he is pulling out of Iraq to focus 100% on terrorism. Going into Iraq was a victory for the terrorists, 'cause now they have an entire country filled with people who hate the US even more than they used to that they can now recruit. Al-Queda wasn't in Iraq before the war, but they sure are now.
  5. shawners

    shawners Hurt no more my son.

    I hate terrorism, i think fighting terrorism with terrorism is fair enough. Your boy grows up, joins al queda, and kills people. You too and all your family will be killed. Wipe the seed from the earth. Them dieing by carring bombs or 9/11 attacks wont stop them, but knowing their family will soon be off this planet may make them think twice.
  6. SuitablyTwisted

    SuitablyTwisted Eugenics Advocate

    A sad day, for democracy. The Islamofascists influenced an election. The people of Spain mistakenly think that they will be able to appease the terrorists. Unfortunately, they are mistaken about the depth of "jihad" and what it entails. Part of the reason for choosing Spain was revenge for driving out the (Islamic) Moors 500 or so years ago. As long as Spain remains predominantly Catholic, and part of the West, they will be a target. Their capitulation in the face of terror gives hope to the jihadists, and they will likely try this tactic again. Meanwhile, now that they are cowed, the people of Spain will be an easier target next time around.
  7. babarfloyd

    babarfloyd Lost in a sea of madness

    I have trouble believing that the Spaniards got scared after the train bombing and took the easy way out. They overwhelmingly did not like their leader lying to them and they voted him out. Period. The same thing is going to happen to Bush this year and it'll have absolutely nothing to do with the American people trying to appease terrorists...it'll all be because he lied to us over and over about everything that had to do with Iraq. We impeached a president for lying about oral sex, we're going to vote out one that lied about the reason to go to war where over 500 brave American soldiers needlessly lost their lives.

    Besides, the new leader said he's going to pull their troops out of Iraq so that they can fight terrorism 100%. How is that appeasing the terrorists? If anything that is telling the terrorists "Sorry, we got bogged down trying to fight Bush's oil war, but now we will be focused on you so you better watch out."

    Once Bush is gone the US will be able to finally do the same thing. Instead of focusing on Iraq we will be able to focus on fighting terrorism.

    "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
    - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

    "I am truly not that concerned about him."
    - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
    3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
  8. method77

    method77 High Fidelity

    just to let everyone know...
    the socialist leader that won always said that the troops don't belong there. Even before the terrorist bombings. So did the spanish people
  9. Aaron73153

    Aaron73153 Member

    Appeasement didn't work with Hitler and it won't work with Al Queda.
  10. Sounds like there's a bit of truth in what everyone is saying so far. I hope that you're not right, Suitably Twisted and Aaron--that would be sad for everyone.
  11. collideous

    collideous account can be deleted

    "L├╝gen haben kurze Beine" (German proverb meaning: Lies have short legs)

    Aznar was thrown out because he lied to the Spanish public (and the world) in an attempt to blame ETA for the train bombings. Had there been no cover-up, Aznar might still be in power. There are rumors that Aznar's party was planning to declare a state of emergency, and to use the army to halt the election. The King of Spain as commander-in-chief however did not give his go-ahead and the coup failed.
  12. que-em

    que-em Better Than Work

    Terrorism influenced this country also:

    -The Patriot Act was passed that stomps on our rights.

    -Bush approval rating shot up to 70% for no reason except for being president during the time. Imagine if Clinton were around during Sept. 11, he would get nothing but blame for letting 9-11 take place and he sure as hell couldn't run an ad on it but ole Bushie Boy gets a pass. The only way Bush will win in November is terrorism.

    -"National Security" keeps us from investigating all the mistakes that happened for 9-11 to succeed. Has anyone actually been fired for September 11th? Apparently we still have confidence in those that allowed the event to take place. Also why is the person Republicans blame (Clinton in case you didn't know their default person to blame) for 9-11 freely answering questions yet Bush will only talk to 9-11 commision on his terms after previously refusing. Condoleeza Rice refuses to even talk to the commssion and she's the National Security advisor.

    - "We will never forget" or invoking September 11th is used to keep the American people uninformed.


    Elect a Democrat. Because they will be held accountable.​


    Bill Clinton couldn't even lie about getting his jimmy sucked without being impeached.
  13. Sephiroth

    Sephiroth Member

    Yeah he did, dont you remember Clinton going on national television and claiming that he never had sexual relations or a affair..

    Which your post has nothing to do with the elections in spain so please keep it on topic.
  14. que-em

    que-em Better Than Work

    Huh?? You got me there. Seriously bro, lighten up. SMH.
  15. There's an interesting and somewhat objective article at (liberal) Salon.com that questions whether or not the Spanish are guilty of appeasement to the terrorists. I think its a judgment call. Hopefully, it can liven the debate here.

    (You have to view a 30 second commercial on online newspapers to enter the site):

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/03/19/spain/index.html
  16. kiwibank

    kiwibank Member


    very good article...the right wing blog machines are working overtime.....

    some other opinions......

    "This is not at all a victory for terrorism. It is a victory for true democracy. The infamous manipulation of information about the bombings was just the last straw. We were tired of Aznar's autocracy."

    Paula, Barcelona, Spain


    "I live in London but I am from Madrid. My heart is broken not as a Spaniard but as a citizen of the world. I changed my vote away from PP many months ago. Some polls say PP was going to lose despite the terrorist attacks. I agree. I had already changed my vote as many others had too. Spain has chosen a healthy change towards democracy and tolerance. The terrorists did not change a democratic election. They just proved once again that Mr Aznar government is not what we want. We are against terrorism. I believe Mr Zapatero will bring a healthy change to Spain as part of Europe and I am sure he will not depart from the fight against terrorism. He has proved to be a gentleman in his opposition to PP. He will just represent Spain better."

    Marina Solana, London

    "Spain needed a change. The terrorist attacks just gave some people the strength they need it to go and vote. But before that horrible day, the Spanish people were not happy with Aznar government. There are several reasons - like the Prestige ship disaster, reducing the amount of money given to State Education, high house prices, not increasing Health and Social Services funding, and going to war when most of the Spanish people didn't want to. All these, and some others, are the reasons why Spanish people has decided to change. I am not surprised about the election results, I would be surprised if it was the other way round."

    Josefina Segura, Alicante Spain


    _____________________________________________

    on zeropaid, it pays to be "flame resistant". it`s a matter of survival.
  17. z05+3R0p5

    z05+3R0p5 Information Junkie

    1) Hooray for Spain! Zapatero is just as determined to combat terrorism as any Western leader. He's just not keen on having his soldiers run around in Iraq with a big crosshairs painted on them, or with his citizens running around in Spain and having the same tag. And the overwhelming majoirity of the Spanish think likewise.

    2) There was no state-of-emergency coup attempt, it seems. What happened, however, is hardly less sinister: for a period of 48 hours, the free media in Spain consisted of one news agency, one radio network and the independents (which were promptly DOSed by parties unknown). All other mass media had been cowed into submission, although even the most hardcore anti-ETA editors KNEW Aznar was having them on. The beauty of it, had it worked, would have been that this was in all respects a coup, but technically still legal (at least the election itself, not the censorship order by Aznar/Palacio). The state-of-emergency rumor was spread by (IIRC) 'El Mundo' to put blame on Cadena SER, the aforementioned radio network... Cadena literally 'stole the news' because one week ago, it was the only way for millions of Spaniards with no Web access to get information that was actually reliable.

    3) If we associate with lying, scheming scum-of-the-earth like Aznar who, to win an election, just so declares freedom of the media abolished (shame on the Spanish media that followed suit, without a word of protest!), we deserve 'neither liberty nor security'. What's worse, Aznar actually AIDED AND ABETTED TERRORISTS! Had these guys planned to do more bombings last Fri/Sat, they would have gotten away with it - Foreign Sec. Palacio, on Aznar's orders (not that she needed), deliberately passed MISLEADING INFORMATION to all of Western Europe's security services - they were busy checking out on any ETA activity or known pro-ETA activists, all the while the murderers of Madrid walked away, cool as you like, right under their noses!
    It is only by sheer luck that half of Europe didn't erupt in a bloodbath, and we have the likes of Senor Aznar how are clearly guilty.
    BTW now ally #3 to the US (after NATO and Israel) shall be Pakistan. You know, that country that harbored (or still does) Bin Ladin, devised and proliferated the 'Islamic Nuke', is eager to get their hands on some guns 'n' planes made in the U.S.A. so they can up the ante with India over Kashmir (and in the process, just maybe preemptively nuke New Delhi), gave the world madrassa-style Islamic fanatism and the Taliban and is ruled by a cuddly dictator, who, while not as bad as Saddam, is certainly worse than Aznar. Talk about defending democracy, talk about defending Western values, then do a reality check - the terrorists may be terrorists, but their point that GW Bush is a liar and a hypocrite (and by that, according to the Christian, Muslim and Jewish holy books, a disgrace in the eye of God, it may be noted) is a valid point indeed.

    4) To all those whining about 'terror's coming home, what are we gotta do about it?': well, such is the nature of war. You cannot dictate your enemy to roll over and die, just because you want to win! These terrorist bastards are in it for the whole road; they want to win, too, and as they say: if you want to win a war, you can't be picky about your tactics. Hell, we sure weren't picky when we blitzed Baghdad. If you take 'an eye for an eye' as a guideline, the Coalition still owes the Muslim world bigtime - we killed about ten times as many innocents fighting Terrorism as the terrorists did fighting us.

    5) Which leads to my conclusion that fighting terrorism with war is a sure way to loose. Luckily, the concept of jihad does provide the easy way out of a non-military struggle, namely one by dispute and philosphical argument (note that the concept of crusade does not. Note also that jihad is a defensive undertaking, however, what constitutes an 'offense' may vary according to the degree of fanaticism of the beholder). Thus, adopting a convincingly defensive (instead of aggressive) stance towards Islam as a whole (instead of harrassing Iraqi girls and letting your sniffer dogs into Afghan's living quarters, not to mention the indiscriminate killing of civillians by aerial bombardment) will not necessarily reduce Islamic terrorism to zero, but reduce the perceived 'threat' to the Muslim world by the West so much that Islamic terrorism will have no fertile ground to grow on.
    Also important ould be to get rid of the patronizing attitude - it is actually (IMHO) worse than outright dissing (the Arab culture is one that has taken creative dissing to quite a height): if you dis a Muslim on a personal level, s/he might just dis back, but keep it personal at any rate. But to assume that, e.g. Islam is per se incompatible with democracy is to condemn each and every one of those people - the same might be said about evangelist Christianity, if one just checks out Diebold or what Greg Palast has to say about the 2000 Florida elections. It is just that a 'flavor' of democracy that was developed and influenced in a Christian culture cannot be expected to fit the Islamic moral code quite well - if Islam had influenced democracy, we could expect a less hierarchical structure with more emphasis on the lower levels of the decision-making apparatus. It is obvious that when the Western model of democracy is attempted to be fitted over a society dominated by clan and family structures like there is in much of Irak, let alone Afghanistan, people will feel sidelined, and justly so. In fact, the Iraqi population is again beginning to wish for a 'strongman' - not because they want Saddam back (hardly anyone does down there), but because they figure that if they don't get self-determination and democracy, they'd at least have security from crime and terrorism (which both were about as common onder Saddam as they are in, for example, the Netherlands - discounting the regime's own crimes, of course).

    6) A final note: the 'al-Qaeda' statement that announces an unilateral ceasefire on the Spanish front (as one would put it in military jargon) might be seen as proof of Zapatero's 'appeasement'. Still, I think we can trust these guys' words more than we can trust those of George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Jose Maria Aznar etc., for to the Islamists, 'honor' is not a concept you need not adhere to if you can get away with that, but a necessity.

    It should be remembered that the fact that the West has won most wars does not mean we can this one, at least not if we fight it as a war. The terrorists have the one advantage that they can still fight in half a century, when all the US' military might lies mothballed around in the Mojave because depletion of oil reserves also means it's damn hard to get some fuel to fly the nice shiny Stealth bombers to the Middle East and bomb the shizz out of some mud huts.
  18. collideous

    collideous account can be deleted

    I side with this opinion of the events.
  19. As an American, I fnd it interesting to hear all the different points of view on this subject matter, particularly from the foreigners... Before the posts here, I didn't know enough about the situation to have an opinion one way or the other. I appreciate the conflicting responses, which appear to be well thought out...

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