Does your ISP like P2P users?

Discussion in 'File Sharing' started by Monyak, Apr 21, 2003.

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  1. Monyak

    Monyak Bare it & We'll Share it!

    CCSDUDE...You are so wrong in this statement. But its okay, I'll just take the time and teach you something.

    The ISP's HATE P2P users. Understand how you ISP works first, think about what I've written, and then answer.

    Your ISP has bandwith that they pay big money for. You ISP is a re-seller of a reseller cause in most cases, he nor the company selling your ISP the bandwith doesnt purchase direct from UUNET, SEABONE, etc., who are the real processors and allocators of bandwith.

    Your ISP receives the bandwith via their own private servers and routers. Your ISP makes his money by allocating his bandwith to his own subscribing users according to a statistical formula. Say for every 256k, your ISP docs 15 users - or whatever the ratio number is.

    There are no laws about the statistical formulas they use and believe me - ALL ISP's do this. Check around before you answer.

    Not all users are using their 256 upload on their DSL account. Not all users are using their whatever number download allocation at all times- in most cases its not symetric rather the upload and download are different.

    This affords the ISP's to oversale their bandwith according to whatever statistical formula they desire.

    Obviously they want to be competitive, so they fuck the numbers up and down. Its like how every now and then Marlboro adds extra nictotine to their cigarettes and when people buy and smoke them, they build a higher tolerance than what they are used to. Then Marlboro lowers the nicotine level and people smoke and buy more cigarettes because they require more nicotine.

    Obviously Marlboro doesnt admit to this, and they dont publish the nicotine level changes on the pack of cigarettes, but they do it.

    As for the ISP's. what happens is they dont expect all of their paying users to be logged in online all at the same time and even if everybody is online all at the same time, they dont expect everybody to be downloading/uploading all at the same time.

    If you are an ISP and have a mega byte and have allocated this megabyte on a statistical formula for 50 people, and all 50 people are logged in at the same time and are P2P downloading, what is the average rate they are getting on the download? But then some get more bandwith than others, so the math isnt split across, rather its a bit more difficult and the ratios grow farther apart. In most cases, the ISP's have the "first come first HOG" rule. The person who began downloading first gets privledge. Many ISP's today have even statistics for that scenario to spread the bandwith across.

    The ideal user for an ISP is a subscriber that logs in and only surfs the web to download static pages. Static pages require almost no bandwith to download.

    The ISP's tend to blame the providers of the local loop as well. They say the phone company is fucking you with your local loop rate (connection between your home and the telephone box), but just know that the telephone company has a statistical system of their own and they actually do fuck with you to.

    So when CCSDUDE is downloading using P2P on a multi threaded program like Kazaa, he is HOGGING the bandwith, and naturally your ISP hates you cause you fuck with their statistical system causing other users of the ISP to not be able to get what they paid for.

    The ISP's love the users who login in, check and send email, read the static CNN news page (their not hogging any bandwith cause the page takes nothing to download onto your screen), etc.

    The ISP's hate SPAM emailers cause they fuck with their servers and waist bandwith. Big time spammers cause mass flooding and the ISP providers receive alot of DOS ATTACK type return ping type floods from email that never arrived at its destination and was sent back to the originating servers.

    ISP's today arent making any money off of the bandwith. Those days are dead. Today, the ISP's give 'value added services' to make their money, and even then just look in the newspaper and you will see that ISP's are ALL losing money. Most are going bankrupt.

    Dont think for a minute your ISP wouldnt sell you out to the RIAA.

    They pray and wish for the day that the lawmakers will make P2P illegal.

    ISP's block and cap on a normal basis known port numbers of P2P programs. All ISP's will soon be using firewalls and special software to identify and block P2P programs. They are dying to do this. They do it now statistically to save bandwith.

    Your ISP is in the bandwith business. He doesnt give a shit about you, he cares about saving bandwith and overselling it to as many people as possible.

    I'll even go further to say something. There is a program out there that is streaming sex for free. We all know who it is so I wont bother mentioning the name. Do you think your ISP is in love with this paying customer who is jacking off to the internet sex stream for hours while hogging bandwith?

    The internet has not and will not die because of the dirty methods used by the ISP's. The ISP's will only continue to use the dirty methods given that people will always use internet.

    I'd love to debate this subject with anybody who thinks that the ISP's love P2P users!
  2. now if your paying for how much bandwitdh you use then your ISP my love you but if you share bandwitdh like a cable connection then they most definly hate you for hoggin it
  3. notbob

    notbob I say what I want Established Member

    they don't care if people have good connections (or slower ones because of "bandwidth hogs")

    all they care about is whether or not you send a check every month

    i upload 2 GB every day and download a whole lot too

    my ISP has never so much as given a dirty look--no emails no letters, nothing, and by now i've uploaded 300GB and downloaded at least 100GB
  4. Monyak

    Monyak Bare it & We'll Share it!

    Notbob, I am sure you and many other have uploaded/downloaded and hogged the bandwith.

    My point is that your ISP is in the bandwith business. Stopping P2P'rs means MORE BANDWITH for the ISP's.

    Just because you havent received the letters, it doesnt mean that your ISP likes you.

    The ISP's are waiting for a standard in the market, or for legislation to take place. One or the other. Most ISP's dont want to be the first to use their firewalls and other software to prevent P2P because they will loose customers, so they desire a standard that all ISP's do the same - and it makes sense to the bigger ISP's because they will be saving money, and making more money.

    But dont kid yourself. The lawmakers will probably pass legislation requiring the ISP's to use special software to block P2P traffic. The question is do the ISP's do it on their own, or wait for legislation.
  5. Wolfie

    Wolfie Aku Soku Zan

    I don't know about anyone else but the only reason I pay for high speed connection is to use p2p. The minute my ISP decides to get some ridiculus notion of playing snitch for RIAA or preventing the use of p2p programs I'm dumping them so fast their heads will spin. I can do with measly modem to browse the internet and get e-mail.

    I think a great deal of interest in high speed has come side by side with more mainstream ppl getting into p2p. The last thing the ISPs want is kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Why do think Verizon held out so much for no name John Doe with measly 600 files?

    I would not as far as saying ISP love p2p user (hogging the bandwidth and all) but they do love thier monthly checks. As for legislation, money talks and ISP have as much money as the RIAA and MPAA does. Can't say sure who's gonna win but both sides will put up one heck of fight, not sake of p2p users or artists but to line thier pockets.
  6. The Hunter

    The Hunter Janitor

    Simple answer, my provider is in business mainly due to p2p all they provide is high speed, no p2p, back to phone lines we go. Hell I dont need high speed to send mail, or browse. My IP will even help out newbies that dont know how to set up their file sharing programs.
  7. notbob

    notbob I say what I want Established Member

    blocking p2p is impossible

    if they start blocking ports, then we'll all just switch to port 80

    if they start sending me letters, i'll find someone else

    the ISP's will lose all their customers if they block p2p's--do you know of any other "legitimate" reason to have broadband? to browse the web? to read email? fuck that i'll go back to dial up and trade files by mail
  8. Monyak

    Monyak Bare it & We'll Share it!

    The ultimate problem of dial up is having a designated telephone line.

    Havent you guys been hearing what is happening in the congressional hearings?

    Congress has a sub committee who is right now looking into legislation and writing a law that will force ISP's to use tools to block internet traffic using either routers, firewalls or special software that identify the individual P2P programs traffic.

    We all know of the P2P program that can penetrate firewalls. Its time I said aloud that if laws are made and the ISP's adhere to restricting the P2P traffic, the only fucking way that you will do P2P (in the US) is by having a program that can penetrate a firewall. This isnt about one specific program, this will be a requirement for ALL multi threaded P2P programs.

    This isnt about port 80. Good software can trace the traffic and identify that you are using Kazaa or whatever P2P program - So use the P2P program on any port you want, it still will be blocked. The trace software will be at your ISP. It will never leave your ISP's gateway cause the ISP will be held responsible. Get the picture? Only a program that can penetrate will be any good.

    This isnt about dial up. The same rules apply.

    Verizon didnt want to make an idiot out of themselves so they were willing to pay god knows how much to lawyers to protect Mr. John Doe. Believe me, they would like to ring that fucks kneck for all the money they spent on him, but it also served their interest. Otherwise, they would have let in and handed over the records.

    Since the ISP business today is so competitive, most ISP's if not all are not making any money off of dsl users. Most are losing money. The ISP's have alot of extra expenses like buying hardware, etc. Do some checking and you will see what I am saying is true. AOL is just an example. What about WorldCom and the list goes on.
  9. Siskabush

    Siskabush ZP Trancecore Cussin

    My ISP is also in the Cable/Digital Cable TV buisness.

    They make craploads of cash off that, they cound care less about losing a bit to bandwidth every now and then. But overall, they make lots of profit.

    The only letters they sent me was when they had to do maintenence on the system so I knew it would be down.

    P2P is keepin them alive.
  10. Krell

    Krell worthless dirtball Expert

    When CCSDUDE says "they want us to use their service" he refers to $$$. In order to get $$$, they resell a product, knowing full well some of it may get used DUH!


    On the other hand, you take it upon yourself to pick a particular statement, from a particular person that you have a problem with, and make a full blown thread about it, so you can come off as oh so smart.

    Can you say "Shrinkage Jerry !?"

    What an arrogant shmuck.

    You cant speak for all ISPs, at any given size. I worked for an ISP for 2 years, and when there were contraints, it wasnt the broadband users fault, it wasnt the dial up users fault, it was the ISPs fault. And btw . . when people cancel $50 accounts, the ISP doesnt say " HOT DAMNED - got rid of another one ! "

    Youre so full of yourself its sickening.
  11. WRFan

    WRFan Member

    the solution is to use big companies as your ISPs, because a big company can afford extra bandwidth passing through. in the last years many people signed with some small providers, because they were cheap, and now those providers closed the ports, and those people are sitting in front of their computers and don't know what to do. just look, on the other hand, at the big providers: German telekom doesn't give a phuck about p2p. all ports are open, you can share simultaneously on irc, fasttrack, edonkey and whatever, no problems. Same with the British Telecom, although here things are a little more complicated. BT doesn't close ports, but it seems to assign less priority to those members with highest traffic (obviously p2p users), meaning their speed will decrease dramatically. don't know whether BT still practices this, but at least they told the British Phonographic Industry to phuck off when BPI wanted them to close ports or to impose a bandwidth limit on per day basis. Just imagine, some ISPs allow 1 gb per day! ridiculous! on very many days I download over 1 gb, why should I be restricted? After all, I pay for adsl. Anyway, I am with the German telekom and I think their service is great. Don't be deceived by cheap ISPs, you will pay for it in the end.
  12. cheapprick

    cheapprick Member

    I imagine I have the same provider as Siskabush.

    No, they don't like p2p. Yes, they do want the business. I have to assume it's similar everywhere. Monyak is absolutely right, the ISP's won't cry if a concentrated crackdown comes, however, they don't want to piss their client base off. They will put up with some grief, 2 of my friends got letters for hitting 60 GB in 2 weeks, but they were letters telling them to either tone it down or pay for a commercial account.

    They can't afford to lose us in a bad light. If Rosen comes down your chimney and carves you up with a butter-knife they will chuckle, but they won't laugh in public.
  13. my isp likes p2p users. actually, to reel me in to getting a cable connection they talked about how fast my file sharing speed would be. and also so far no complains about file sharing.
  14. Monyak

    Monyak Bare it & We'll Share it!

    I may be arrogant, but Krell, I dont spend over 12 hours of my day babysitting ZP cause I have a life, a woman, and lots to do with myself. I dont sit in a small room all day for no pay at high concentration watching ZP posts.

    You make personal remarks and begin flame wars by stating remarks like "oh what an arrogant ass" expecting me to answer on the same bullshit level. I dont live in your little room 12 hours a day, thats not my world. The truth is you simply have nothing better to say - Or you scream "this is another ESV thread!".

    You see Krell, people arent stupid. Everybody that has posted on this specific thread understands that the ISP's hate P2P users.

    If you worked at an ISP, then please explain to the ZP members about the statistical system instead of getting personal. I mean be a bit bold and show us your tech skills.

    In fact, please post the name of any ISP that doesnt use a statistical system. I want to know if such a thing exist. Also, please post the name of a telephone company on this fucking planet that doesnt use a statistical system on their local loops. I mean if you want to debate me, show the great people here at ZP what your made of.

    Otherwise, you just posted something that makes no sense.

    So long as the service they sell doesnt excede the ISP statistical pattern that cause hogging of bandwith whereas other users suffer.

    Again, you and everybody will see how the good ol' Uncle Sam will in the near future make some crazy legislation requiring that the ISP's use software or require that the physical hardware prevents the traffic.

    I agree that no ISP wants to be the first to do this because they will loose clients. But in the name of Uncle Sam, they will be more than happy to oblidge.

    Bandwith capabilities and needs will only increase with technology and evolotion - people wont go back to dial up. As I said before in other threads, VOIP and other applications like online gaming will require the bandwith.

    But you seem to think that without P2P, internet broadband will return to the stone age. Only time will tell how wrong you are.
  15. SUprEMeBeiNg

    SUprEMeBeiNg Rofl, you own a pentium?

    MY ISP'S SLOGAN IS "IF YOU DONT SHARE WE DONT CARE!"



    (ATTBI)

    plus ur very wrong without p2p they would lose alot of money but if they keep p2p users it uses a crapload of bandwith. What have we learned kids?

    A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION
  16. Evil_Dweller_01

    Evil_Dweller_01 Your Favorite News Mod

    Woah..calm down everybody

    First off, Small companies that are cheap are obviously going to start blocking ports because the users are hogging the bandwidth and they don't want to spend extra money (the isps) on more bandwidth.. so they block the users so they can't hog anything..

    Bigger ISP's that own Cable Tv/ Internet and some that only own Internet but are very big... don't give a fuck about someone hoggin their bandwidth because they have enough money to support the bandwidth they need...

    How the fuck are you hogging the bandwidth if that is what you are paying for? If I pay for 1.5mbps/256kbps I will get that speed and use it to the fullest.. nobody is going to tell me that I'm hogging anything because I'm fucking using the bandwidth that was provided to me and that's what I pay for..
    What I pay for is what I get....and the the big prosperous ISP's understand that and that's why they don't give a rat's ass if you are using up what you get..only small cheap ISP's would risk their customers and bankrupcy by ending P2P by blocking ports and or telling the users they can't use file sharing programs because of bandwidth problems..

    Face it, bigger ISP's KNOW that the users purchase broadband simply for the fact that they will p2p sometime in the near future.. if they stop letting people p2p then they might as well just go bankrupt as nobody will get the broadband services they provide..

    The BIG ISP's know that and in order to stay prosperous they will continue letting people p2p... the cheaper ones dont give a fuck
  17. Krell

    Krell worthless dirtball Expert

    February 7, 2003

    Broadband's Reach Gets Broader

    The gap between broadband and narrowband is closing, as Internet users disband dial-up for high-speed. Strategy Analytics found that global sales of broadband modems in 2002 increased by 52 percent to 26.3 million units, and the firm further predicts annual sales of 60 million units a year by 2008, representing an average growth rate of 15 percent.

    Strategy Analytics estimates that 27 percent of all U.S. Internet homes presently use broadband connections, with expectations of more than 70 percent by 2008 — that's approximately 64 million subscribers or 59 percent of all U.S. homes.
    http://cyberatlas.internet.com/markets/broadband/article/0,,10099_1580601,00.html#table



    U.S. 3Q Cable Subs Double DSL

    "The third quarter results demonstrate strong continued adoption of broadband Internet in the United States," said Bruce Leichtman, president and principal analyst for Leichtman Research Group, Inc. "While cable operators lost over 250,000 video subscribers in the third quarter, the industry-wide focus on high-value customers clearly paid off in cable's growth of high-speed Internet subscribers."
    http://cyberatlas.internet.com/markets/broadband/article/0,1323,10099_1496731,00.html



    U.S. Internet Population Continues to Grow

    Internet use in the United States is growing at a rate of 2 million new Internet users each month, according to a study by the U.S. Government.

    The study, "A Nation Online: How Americans Are Expanding Their Use of the Internet", published by the National Telecommunications and Information Administration and the Economics and Statistics Administration, found that 143 million Americans (54 percent of the population) used the Internet in September 2001. That's a 26 percent increase over August 2000.
    http://cyberatlas.internet.com/big_picture/geographics/article/0,,5911_969541,00.html




    ISP Marketing— Broadband Price Inflation (and How to Fight It)
    psssst : hey clueless . . . it's NOT the broadband users . . its the corperate greed . .

    Section - Play of the Week
    Once again, the big plays of the week involve big bankruptcies.

    In Europe the complete collapse of KPNQwest (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_2036000/2036110.stm) meant that half of the continent’s broadband capacity could die between my writing this and your reading it. The beleaguered company said it would shut down unless customers paid their bills this week.

    Here in the U.S. one of the largest cable operators, Adelphia Communications, appeared to be circling the bankruptcy bowl (http://money.cnn.com/2002/06/05/news/companies/adelphia/index.htm), but before going down it fired its accountants (http://money.cnn.com/2002/06/10/news/companies/adelphia_deloitte/index.htm), blaming them for the alleged fraud and self-dealing that has brought it low (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/18471).

    In all this, it appeared, the StarBand bankruptcy (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42235-2002May31.html) was practically lost. Perhaps this was because its fall became inevitable weeks ago, when EchoStar dropped the Israeli-based satellite broadband service. (It hopes to offer DirecPc after acquiring Hughes.)



    Pacific Internet Exceeds Full-Year 2002 Profit Target; Broadband Segment Revenue Increases 132% From Year-Ago Levels

    Ko Kheng Hwa, Chairman of Pacific Internet Limited, said, "We have delivered our fourth consecutive quarter of net profits and returned Pacific Internet to full-year profitability in 2002. We have exceeded the profit target of US$1.5 million that we made in the earlier half of 2002. During the year, while we focused on returning the company to full-year profitability, we have also strengthened our position for future growth. Moving forward, we will pursue both profitability and growth objectives through our strategies in broadband, corporate customers, value-added services, deepening penetration in our existing markets and exploring new opportunities in high-growth markets in Asia."
    http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030205/lnw009_1.html



    The basic economic principles of supply and demand apparently don't apply to the broadband market.

    Placing the blame
    Some analysts and industry executives believe the high costs of advertising and promotions, aimed at attracting new customers, is one culprit. Others say that too many competitors forced prices lower more quickly than the small providers ordinarily would have trimmed their rates.

    "The number of players in the market led to price competition that is out of sorts with the actual cost of deployment," Brooks said, noting that the Baby Bells, with their scale and wholly owned ISPs, are more capable of absorbing the slimmer-than-expected profit margins.

    Many smaller broadband providers have spent money quickly in an aggressive effort to gain market share early.

    However, the "If-you-build-it-they-will-come" strategy was resoundingly slapped once the stock markets faltered earlier this year. As a result, the investment capital markets withered, leaving unprofitable start-up broadband companies without a clear means of gaining the money necessary to finish funding their ambitious plans.
    http://news.com.com/2100-1033-249439.html?legacy=cnet


    All ISPs use metrics, no revelation there! Unless you have a business strategy with someones name on it, or a market anaylsis proving that broadband providors intent to stab their cash-cow, maybe your just talking out of your ass?

    I have indeed seen times when bandwidth was reaching limitations, but NOT due to usage, but due to lack of distribution ability. The bottlenecks were "out there" not internally, or off the pipe.

    Here is some glib, since you like to go on and on about notions that you have no verifiable proof of, I will just add some pretty blinky lights . . . subject to interpretation, while I study, and baby-sit nutcases like you.

    Healthy
    http://www.internetpulse.net/

    Click on the maps . . .weeeeeeee
    http://sla.cw.net/

    Call the NOCs and ask them if they are out of bandwidth.
    http://puck.nether.net/netops/nocs.cgi



    And . .oh yea . . I almost forgot

    CCSDUDE
    One big question is how data customers will react to such broadband meter-reading and consumption fees. Will cable-modem subscribers take extra usage charges in stride or rebel against them, flocking to DSL and other broadband providers that don't impose such fees? How much can cable operators charge for usage without irking customers? How should such bandwidth-chomping annoyances as spam e-mail be counted by bandwidth tacking tools? "There are lots of issues," as one cable executive put it. Nobody knows the answers yet.

    Although cable operators and DSL providers know there are plenty of bandwidth hogs out there, they don't necessarily know who those customers are yet because they're just beginning to track individual usage. Many heavy users don't know how much bandwidth they're gobbling up either because they have no way of gauging their usage. "Most people don't even realize how much they're using today," an AT&T Broadband spokesperson said.

    http://www.cabledatacomnews.com/oct02/oct02-2.html

    Monyak
    Monyak - ...You are so wrong in this statement

    Read the whole article, they didnt use the word hate anywhere in thier statements
  18. RJ5500

    RJ5500 sailed away

    Actually, that slogan now belongs to Comcast.

    lol. That's so true. Corporate greed is one of the factors that lead to the collapse of Enron, Arthur Anderson, and Worldcom. Theres too much of that in America today.

    Back to the thread subject, I use an Earthlink dial-up account. I don't think my ISP really cares exactly how much as I upload or download on P2P. My total bandwidth consumption per 'x' period of time is physically capped.

    Overall it will be the people with the ultimate say on whether P2P sticks around. The consumer will speak with their wallets and vote.

    If ISPs try to block P2P, some people will switch ISPs.

    If record companies try to shut down P2P (and they do try), some people will not buy music.

    And if politicians try to pass bills to restrict/ban P2P, the bills will either never get voted in, or some people will try to vote the politicans out of office and (or) not re-elect them.
  19. jonny5

    jonny5 Mr Roboto

    So what have we learned?

    wrong

    so do you

    Small companies can't deal w/ p2p users hogging their bandwidth. Big companies can.

    Did i get everything? :fire
  20. FileHoover

    FileHoover Member

    Cablemodem users all share the bandwidth for an entire segment. Once that cable becomes saturated, everyone suffers.

    I work for an ISP (not in the US) and about a year ago we started bandwidth limiting the ports for gnutella, kazaa and edonkey in the OUTBOUND direction, because, the users don't notice it. They do notice if their downloads are slow, but there is no way for them to really know that their uploads are slow.

    I'm not the one who monitors the entire aggregate bandwidth so I'm not sure how much we saved by doing this but I was asked to track down the port numbers involved and give the info to the tech who works the CISCO routers. I do know our entire network was bogging down due to P2P users who were unknowingly sharing files and then blaming the ISP (us) when their connections got sluggish.

    That's why, when designing Earthstation5, from the very beginning it was designed to not be vulnerable to port bandwidth throttling or filtering by packet content.

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