Does your ISP like P2P users?

[Monyak]

ISP's will never be required to do such things...they're willing to put up on that and fight back for the most part. They WANT us using their service. They know broadband is pretty fuckin' useless for downloading anything but 'free' stuff. And they know once they're forced to do something like that they can kiss their asses goodbye when everyone drops right back on dialup.

CCSDUDE...You are so wrong in this statement. But its okay, I'll just take the time and teach you something.

The ISP's HATE P2P users. Understand how you ISP works first, think about what I've written, and then answer.

Your ISP has bandwith that they pay big money for. You ISP is a re-seller of a reseller cause in most cases, he nor the company selling your ISP the bandwith doesnt purchase direct from UUNET, SEABONE, etc., who are the real processors and allocators of bandwith.

Your ISP receives the bandwith via their own private servers and routers. Your ISP makes his money by allocating his bandwith to his own subscribing users according to a statistical formula. Say for every 256k, your ISP docs 15 users - or whatever the ratio number is.

There are no laws about the statistical formulas they use and believe me - ALL ISP's do this. Check around before you answer.

Not all users are using their 256 upload on their DSL account. Not all users are using their whatever number download allocation at all times- in most cases its not symetric rather the upload and download are different.

This affords the ISP's to oversale their bandwith according to whatever statistical formula they desire.

Obviously they want to be competitive, so they fuck the numbers up and down. Its like how every now and then Marlboro adds extra nictotine to their cigarettes and when people buy and smoke them, they build a higher tolerance than what they are used to. Then Marlboro lowers the nicotine level and people smoke and buy more cigarettes because they require more nicotine.

Obviously Marlboro doesnt admit to this, and they dont publish the nicotine level changes on the pack of cigarettes, but they do it.

As for the ISP's. what happens is they dont expect all of their paying users to be logged in online all at the same time and even if everybody is online all at the same time, they dont expect everybody to be downloading/uploading all at the same time.

If you are an ISP and have a mega byte and have allocated this megabyte on a statistical formula for 50 people, and all 50 people are logged in at the same time and are P2P downloading, what is the average rate they are getting on the download? But then some get more bandwith than others, so the math isnt split across, rather its a bit more difficult and the ratios grow farther apart. In most cases, the ISP's have the "first come first HOG" rule. The person who began downloading first gets privledge. Many ISP's today have even statistics for that scenario to spread the bandwith across.

The ideal user for an ISP is a subscriber that logs in and only surfs the web to download static pages. Static pages require almost no bandwith to download.

The ISP's tend to blame the providers of the local loop as well. They say the phone company is fucking you with your local loop rate (connection between your home and the telephone box), but just know that the telephone company has a statistical system of their own and they actually do fuck with you to.

So when CCSDUDE is downloading using P2P on a multi threaded program like Kazaa, he is HOGGING the bandwith, and naturally your ISP hates you cause you fuck with their statistical system causing other users of the ISP to not be able to get what they paid for.

The ISP's love the users who login in, check and send email, read the static CNN news page (their not hogging any bandwith cause the page takes nothing to download onto your screen), etc.

The ISP's hate SPAM emailers cause they fuck with their servers and waist bandwith. Big time spammers cause mass flooding and the ISP providers receive alot of DOS ATTACK type return ping type floods from email that never arrived at its destination and was sent back to the originating servers.

ISP's today arent making any money off of the bandwith. Those days are dead. Today, the ISP's give 'value added services' to make their money, and even then just look in the newspaper and you will see that ISP's are ALL losing money. Most are going bankrupt.

Dont think for a minute your ISP wouldnt sell you out to the RIAA.

They pray and wish for the day that the lawmakers will make P2P illegal.

ISP's block and cap on a normal basis known port numbers of P2P programs. All ISP's will soon be using firewalls and special software to identify and block P2P programs. They are dying to do this. They do it now statistically to save bandwith.

Your ISP is in the bandwith business. He doesnt give a shit about you, he cares about saving bandwith and overselling it to as many people as possible.

I'll even go further to say something. There is a program out there that is streaming sex for free. We all know who it is so I wont bother mentioning the name. Do you think your ISP is in love with this paying customer who is jacking off to the internet sex stream for hours while hogging bandwith?

The internet has not and will not die because of the dirty methods used by the ISP's. The ISP's will only continue to use the dirty methods given that people will always use internet.

I'd love to debate this subject with anybody who thinks that the ISP's love P2P users!

[Undying Wizard]

now if your paying for how much bandwitdh you use then your ISP my love you but if you share bandwitdh like a cable connection then they most definly hate you for hoggin it

[notbob]

they don't care if people have good connections (or slower ones because of "bandwidth hogs")

all they care about is whether or not you send a check every month

i upload 2 GB every day and download a whole lot too

my ISP has never so much as given a dirty look--no emails no letters, nothing, and by now i've uploaded 300GB and downloaded at least 100GB

[Monyak]

Notbob, I am sure you and many other have uploaded/downloaded and hogged the bandwith.

My point is that your ISP is in the bandwith business. Stopping P2P'rs means MORE BANDWITH for the ISP's.

Just because you havent received the letters, it doesnt mean that your ISP likes you.

The ISP's are waiting for a standard in the market, or for legislation to take place. One or the other. Most ISP's dont want to be the first to use their firewalls and other software to prevent P2P because they will loose customers, so they desire a standard that all ISP's do the same - and it makes sense to the bigger ISP's because they will be saving money, and making more money.

But dont kid yourself. The lawmakers will probably pass legislation requiring the ISP's to use special software to block P2P traffic. The question is do the ISP's do it on their own, or wait for legislation.

[Wolfie]

I don't know about anyone else but the only reason I pay for high speed connection is to use p2p. The minute my ISP decides to get some ridiculus notion of playing snitch for RIAA or preventing the use of p2p programs I'm dumping them so fast their heads will spin. I can do with measly modem to browse the internet and get e-mail.

I think a great deal of interest in high speed has come side by side with more mainstream ppl getting into p2p. The last thing the ISPs want is kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Why do think Verizon held out so much for no name John Doe with measly 600 files?

I would not as far as saying ISP love p2p user (hogging the bandwidth and all) but they do love thier monthly checks. As for legislation, money talks and ISP have as much money as the RIAA and MPAA does. Can't say sure who's gonna win but both sides will put up one heck of fight, not sake of p2p users or artists but to line thier pockets.

[The Hunter]

Simple answer, my provider is in business mainly due to p2p all they provide is high speed, no p2p, back to phone lines we go. Hell I dont need high speed to send mail, or browse. My IP will even help out newbies that dont know how to set up their file sharing programs.

[notbob]

Originally posted by Monyak

But dont kid yourself. The lawmakers will probably pass legislation requiring the ISP's to use special software to block P2P traffic. The question is do the ISP's do it on their own, or wait for legislation.

blocking p2p is impossible

if they start blocking ports, then we'll all just switch to port 80

if they start sending me letters, i'll find someone else

the ISP's will lose all their customers if they block p2p's--do you know of any other "legitimate" reason to have broadband? to browse the web? to read email? fuck that i'll go back to dial up and trade files by mail

[Monyak]

The ultimate problem of dial up is having a designated telephone line.

Havent you guys been hearing what is happening in the congressional hearings?

Congress has a sub committee who is right now looking into legislation and writing a law that will force ISP's to use tools to block internet traffic using either routers, firewalls or special software that identify the individual P2P programs traffic.

We all know of the P2P program that can penetrate firewalls. Its time I said aloud that if laws are made and the ISP's adhere to restricting the P2P traffic, the only fucking way that you will do P2P (in the US) is by having a program that can penetrate a firewall. This isnt about one specific program, this will be a requirement for ALL multi threaded P2P programs.

This isnt about port 80. Good software can trace the traffic and identify that you are using Kazaa or whatever P2P program - So use the P2P program on any port you want, it still will be blocked. The trace software will be at your ISP. It will never leave your ISP's gateway cause the ISP will be held responsible. Get the picture? Only a program that can penetrate will be any good.

This isnt about dial up. The same rules apply.

Verizon didnt want to make an idiot out of themselves so they were willing to pay god knows how much to lawyers to protect Mr. John Doe. Believe me, they would like to ring that fucks kneck for all the money they spent on him, but it also served their interest. Otherwise, they would have let in and handed over the records.

Since the ISP business today is so competitive, most ISP's if not all are not making any money off of dsl users. Most are losing money. The ISP's have alot of extra expenses like buying hardware, etc. Do some checking and you will see what I am saying is true. AOL is just an example. What about WorldCom and the list goes on.

[Siskabush]

My ISP is also in the Cable/Digital Cable TV buisness.

They make craploads of cash off that, they cound care less about losing a bit to bandwidth every now and then. But overall, they make lots of profit.

The only letters they sent me was when they had to do maintenence on the system so I knew it would be down.

P2P is keepin them alive.

[Krell]

When CCSDUDE says "they want us to use their service" he refers to $$$. In order to get $$$, they resell a product, knowing full well some of it may get used DUH!


On the other hand, you take it upon yourself to pick a particular statement, from a particular person that you have a problem with, and make a full blown thread about it, so you can come off as oh so smart.

CCSDUDE...You are so wrong in this statement. But its okay, I'll just take the time and teach you something

Can you say "Shrinkage Jerry !?"

What an arrogant shmuck.

You cant speak for all ISPs, at any given size. I worked for an ISP for 2 years, and when there were contraints, it wasnt the broadband users fault, it wasnt the dial up users fault, it was the ISPs fault. And btw . . when people cancel $50 accounts, the ISP doesnt say " HOT DAMNED - got rid of another one ! "

Youre so full of yourself its sickening.

[WRFan]

the solution is to use big companies as your ISPs, because a big company can afford extra bandwidth passing through. in the last years many people signed with some small providers, because they were cheap, and now those providers closed the ports, and those people are sitting in front of their computers and don't know what to do. just look, on the other hand, at the big providers: German telekom doesn't give a phuck about p2p. all ports are open, you can share simultaneously on irc, fasttrack, edonkey and whatever, no problems. Same with the British Telecom, although here things are a little more complicated. BT doesn't close ports, but it seems to assign less priority to those members with highest traffic (obviously p2p users), meaning their speed will decrease dramatically. don't know whether BT still practices this, but at least they told the British Phonographic Industry to phuck off when BPI wanted them to close ports or to impose a bandwidth limit on per day basis. Just imagine, some ISPs allow 1 gb per day! ridiculous! on very many days I download over 1 gb, why should I be restricted? After all, I pay for adsl. Anyway, I am with the German telekom and I think their service is great. Don't be deceived by cheap ISPs, you will pay for it in the end.

[cheapprick]

I imagine I have the same provider as Siskabush.

No, they don't like p2p. Yes, they do want the business. I have to assume it's similar everywhere. Monyak is absolutely right, the ISP's won't cry if a concentrated crackdown comes, however, they don't want to piss their client base off. They will put up with some grief, 2 of my friends got letters for hitting 60 GB in 2 weeks, but they were letters telling them to either tone it down or pay for a commercial account.

They can't afford to lose us in a bad light. If Rosen comes down your chimney and carves you up with a butter-knife they will chuckle, but they won't laugh in public.

[Sockfulloflove]

my isp likes p2p users. actually, to reel me in to getting a cable connection they talked about how fast my file sharing speed would be. and also so far no complains about file sharing.

[Monyak]

Originally posted by Krell
When CCSDUDE says "they want us to use their service" he refers to $$$. In order to get $$$, they resell a product, knowing full well some of it may get used DUH!


On the other hand, you take it upon yourself to pick a particular statement, from a particular person that you have a problem with, and make a full blown thread about it, so you can come off as oh so smart.


Can you say "Shrinkage Jerry !?"

What an arrogant shmuck.

You cant speak for all ISPs, at any given size. I worked for an ISP for 2 years, and when there were contraints, it wasnt the broadband users fault, it wasnt the dial up users fault, it was the ISPs fault. And btw . . when people cancel $50 accounts, the ISP doesnt say " HOT DAMNED - got rid of another one ! "

Youre so full of yourself its sickening.

I may be arrogant, but Krell, I dont spend over 12 hours of my day babysitting ZP cause I have a life, a woman, and lots to do with myself. I dont sit in a small room all day for no pay at high concentration watching ZP posts.

You make personal remarks and begin flame wars by stating remarks like "oh what an arrogant ass" expecting me to answer on the same bullshit level. I dont live in your little room 12 hours a day, thats not my world. The truth is you simply have nothing better to say - Or you scream "this is another ESV thread!".

You see Krell, people arent stupid. Everybody that has posted on this specific thread understands that the ISP's hate P2P users.

If you worked at an ISP, then please explain to the ZP members about the statistical system instead of getting personal. I mean be a bit bold and show us your tech skills.

In fact, please post the name of any ISP that doesnt use a statistical system. I want to know if such a thing exist. Also, please post the name of a telephone company on this fucking planet that doesnt use a statistical system on their local loops. I mean if you want to debate me, show the great people here at ZP what your made of.

Otherwise, you just posted something that makes no sense.

When CCSDUDE says "they want us to use their service" he refers to $$$. In order to get $$$, they resell a product, knowing full well some of it may get used DUH!

So long as the service they sell doesnt excede the ISP statistical pattern that cause hogging of bandwith whereas other users suffer.

Again, you and everybody will see how the good ol' Uncle Sam will in the near future make some crazy legislation requiring that the ISP's use software or require that the physical hardware prevents the traffic.

I agree that no ISP wants to be the first to do this because they will loose clients. But in the name of Uncle Sam, they will be more than happy to oblidge.

Bandwith capabilities and needs will only increase with technology and evolotion - people wont go back to dial up. As I said before in other threads, VOIP and other applications like online gaming will require the bandwith.

But you seem to think that without P2P, internet broadband will return to the stone age. Only time will tell how wrong you are.

[SUprEMeBeiNg]

MY ISP'S SLOGAN IS "IF YOU DONT SHARE WE DONT CARE!"



(ATTBI)

plus ur very wrong without p2p they would lose alot of money but if they keep p2p users it uses a crapload of bandwith. What have we learned kids?

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