Buying/copying CDs Legal issues

**icarus** · February 27th, 2004, 05:19 PM

I don't really know where I'm going on this one, it's 1am and I just suddenly thought of it, so feel free to close the thread when it gets silly.

I was basically thinking about the current DVD deCSS ruling, and I got thinking, you know how you're not allowed to copy your DVD for your own backup? (or say CD), well... where is that written?

So if I give mr record store my money and he gives me a CD in box, it's mine to do what I want with right?

Copyright law says you can't copy an authors work without the express permission of the copyright holder. Do we not get into some sort of zen/abstract thing. "explain to me mr record label how you own the pits on the metal sheet of the CD and also the sound created when you pass those pits over a laser spinning at xxy rpm decoded at 44.1 khz at 16 bit.."

surely if I passed cotton wool over a laser with the right algorithm it'd sound like something? at what point does it stop?

Just trying to bounce an idea about...

**gumdrop ink** · February 27th, 2004, 05:28 PM

yes your right and im sure most of the peep would agree with youb but unfortunaly you humans live on a planet where who ever has the most money is always right and has the power to make you wrong

**CompuGeek** · February 27th, 2004, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by icarus

I was basically thinking about the current DVD deCSS ruling, and I got thinking, you know how you're not allowed to copy your DVD for your own backup? (or say CD), well... where is that written?

So if I give mr record store my money and he gives me a CD in box, it's mine to do what I want with right?

Copyright law says you can't copy an authors work without the express permission of the copyright holder. Do we not get into some sort of zen/abstract thing. "explain to me mr record label how you own the pits on the metal sheet of the CD and also the sound created when you pass those pits over a laser spinning at xxy rpm decoded at 44.1 khz at 16 bit.."

You don't really buy a CD or DVD, you buy a license to make personal use of a particular copyrighted work.

DVDs and newer audio CDs have copyright protection built into them. The Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 (DMCA) makes it illegal to circumvent copyright protection mechanisms.

There is an established legal precedent of "Fair Use" that says you can make a backup copy for personal use of copyrighted material you have purchased a licensed copy of. Unfortunately it is illegal to make any copies for fair use if you have to circumvent copyright protection, such as CSS on DVDs.

**Scyth77521** · February 28th, 2004, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by CompuGeek

You don't really buy a CD or DVD, you buy a license to make personal use of a particular copyrighted work.

If you believe that, you've been brainwashed by the recording industry. You don't need a license to access a copyrighted work. If you own a copy of a work, you have the right to use however you want just like any other property. The only exception is you might not be allowed to copy it.

**CompuGeek** · February 28th, 2004, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Scyth77521

If you believe that, you've been brainwashed by the recording industry. You don't need a license to access a copyrighted work. If you own a copy of a work, you have the right to use however you want just like any other property. The only exception is you might not be allowed to copy it.

When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work, you agree to abide by the terms of the Licensing Agreement. If the Licensing Agreement says, "You are not allowed to do anything but listen to this CD at home in the dark on headphones in your underwear," then they can sue you for doing anything else.

**Malicious Intent** · February 28th, 2004, 02:43 AM

According to ZPs clock, you posted at 1am GMT. It really does depend on where you are in the world. In the UK, we have never had fair use rights. It is theoretically a criminal offence to turn a protected pdf file into a Word file.
You arn't allowed to break any copyright protection, although by the laws definition of copyright protection, if you can break it, then it wasn't protection anyway! I doubt the courts will see it that way. There are exceptions if you are blind, but then you can't tell anyone how you did it.
My point is that the laws are very stick, although badly written. I wouldn't like to be the first into court proving that I didn't break copyright protection as by my breaking it, it wasn't protection.

**shawners** · February 28th, 2004, 06:05 AM

you really need to go to bed and stop thinking =)

**Lehk** · February 28th, 2004, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by CompuGeek

When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work, you agree to abide by the terms of the Licensing Agreement. If the Licensing Agreement says, "You are not allowed to do anything but listen to this CD at home in the dark on headphones in your underwear," then they can sue you for doing anything else.

Wrong! If the Licence agreement says "you may only distribute this work if you sit in the dark in your underwear" it is enforcable, what you do with that CD is your buisness unless you illegally distribute it illegally, the same holds true for EULA's on software, they are also unenforcable because the copying involved in installation and running is clearly under fair use, you purchased it and are using it for yourself.

**CompuGeek** · February 28th, 2004, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lehk

Wrong! If the Licence agreement says "you may only distribute this work if you sit in the dark in your underwear" it is enforcable, what you do with that CD is your buisness unless you illegally distribute it illegally, the same holds true for EULA's on software, they are also unenforcable because the copying involved in installation and running is clearly under fair use, you purchased it and are using it for yourself.

I'm not a legal expert, but I'm pretty sure that if you piss off a copyright holder, a violation of a License Agreement is more than enough reason for a team of expensive lawyers to sue you for everything you have. Unless you have a team of expensive lawyers you'll probably lose.

**Scyth77521** · February 28th, 2004, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by CompuGeek

When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work, you agree to abide by the terms of the Licensing Agreement. If the Licensing Agreement says, "You are not allowed to do anything but listen to this CD at home in the dark on headphones in your underwear," then they can sue you for doing anything else.

I've never agreed to a license agreement when buying music or movies and I don't think anyone else has either.

Even if there were a license, in the US agreements without consideration are unenforable. Consideration, in this sense, means the party offering the contract has to give the party signing the contract something in exchange for the things being agreed to. This is why I can't say something like "By reading the entirety of this post, you agree to pay me $100 a month for the rest of your life".

**CompuGeek** · February 28th, 2004, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Scyth77521

I've never agreed to a license agreement when buying music or movies and I don't think anyone else has either.

Even if there were a license, in the US agreements without consideration are unenforable. Consideration, in this sense, means the party offering the contract has to give the party signing the contract something in exchange for the things being agreed to. This is why I can't say something like "By reading the entirety of this post, you agree to pay me $100 a month for the rest of your life".

It is still a legal grey area, but technically a "shrink-warp licensing agreement" is a legal contract you agree to when you open up a CD or a DVD or a piece of software and it has fine print somewhere that tells you what you can and can't do.

**Scyth77521** · February 28th, 2004, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by CompuGeek

It is still a legal grey area, but technically a "shrink-warp licensing agreement" is a legal contract you agree to when you open up a CD or a DVD or a piece of software and it has fine print somewhere that tells you what you can and can't do.

I've never seen a music CD with a shrink-wrap license.

On top of that, you're quite write that it's a legal gray area. Depending on the circumstances, US courts have gone both ways when deciding whether shrink- or click- wrap licenses were enforceable.

**CompuGeek** · February 28th, 2004, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Scyth77521

I've never seen a music CD with a shrink-wrap license.

On top of that, you're quite write that it's a legal gray area. Depending on the circumstances, US courts have gone both ways when deciding whether shrink- or click- wrap licenses were enforceable.

For CDs it's a simple "DO NOT COPY THIS DISC."

DVDs have all the terms in the big warning screen at the beginning that everyone ignores. Something like "for private home viewing only. Don't copy this of the FBI will kick your ass."

Software actually has enough fine print to really call it a Licensing Agreement.

Whatever fine print any copyrighted media has is a legal contract that will probably (unless you can afford a good lawyer) hold up in court.

**Scyth77521** · February 28th, 2004, 10:21 PM

No, 'Do not copy this disc' is not a contract. If getting someone to enter a contract was as simple as showing them text, well then SEND ME MONEY. Legally, in order to enter into a contract, I have to give something and receive something in return. That statement doesn't offer anything, nor does it even ask me to offer anything. Those statements on discs are only there to remind you that it's illegal to copy the disc (in general), not because you've agreed not to, but because you're legally bound not to.

**CompuGeek** · February 28th, 2004, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Scyth77521

No, 'Do not copy this disc' is not a contract. If getting someone to enter a contract was as simple as showing them text, well then SEND ME MONEY. Legally, in order to enter into a contract, I have to give something and receive something in return. That statement doesn't offer anything, nor does it even ask me to offer anything. Those statements on discs are only there to remind you that it's illegal to copy the disc (in general), not because you've agreed not to, but because you're legally bound not to.

Sorry, that was a bad example. What I mean is that the big warnings in Software and DVDs are licensing restrictions and they could put something like that on CDs if they wanted to tell you what you could do instead of limiting what you can do with copyright-protected CDs.