NTFS and FAT32: Need Feedback

[MauerPower]

I have one primary 180 GB hard drive and a secondary 40 GB hard drive. The primary hard drive is split into two partitions. The first partition is roughly 20 GB in size and uses FAT32. This partition is the bootable drive and holds the windows and program files. The second partition is the rest of the hard drive and uses NTFS. This partition holds all of my other files, including emulators, music, videos, documents, etc. The secondary hard drive uses NTFS and is mainly used for DVD purposes.

I am deciding whether or not I should convert the bootable partition from FAT32 to NTFS. I have searched on ZeroPaid's forums as well as on other forums and have read differing opinions on the matter. I understand that NTFS is a better file system to use for larger drives, but I also read that for the bootable drives FAT32 offers a little better performance.

I am using the Windows XP Professional OS with a Pentium 4 and have used the program PartitionMagic 8 in the past. If I do convert file systems, then I will use PM 8 to do this.

I would like suggestions on which file system should be on the bootable drive: FAT32 or NTFS. I appreciate any comments on this matter.

[origin]

you're using Fat32 with Xp? you must be out of you're mind. Well quite sane in fact you can but it is not reccomended to Msxp using NTFS File system. I would reccomend to just stick with one File system don't mix em especially if you are using xp just use NTFS for best results it was built for that FS and should be used for it.

l8

[DemonusAE]

For me it would depend on what the computer is for. Personally I format all drives NTFS. If you have multiple users using your computer and wish to set the appropriate security permissions for many of the files contained in C:/, you have to format your drive NTFS. Other issues concerning file names and Last Access Time Stamp are also involved but i won't go into detail. Disk Quotas are also possible because of NTFS. Other things like automatic encryption and mounted drives are made possible by NTFS. Oh yeah, and sparse files.

My choice would be NTFS. Some would argue that there is a speed difference. I find it to be the same, I could be wrong.

[wonderboy2005]

I personally like NTFS better. one of my favorite things about it is that you never have to scan the disk for errors after a crash or quick shutdown.

[PiRaNeTuS]

Yes, I always use NTFS. It doesn't crash as much as Fat32, for me anyways. It really is a more stable FS. Whether or not it's faster or slower, I couldn't tell the difference.

[LordNIkon]

NTFS All the way, FAT32 should fade away with the windows 9x/ME versions of Windows.

[Krell]

Well, I think this is rubbish, you cant SEE NTFS files from Fat32!


If that wasnt rubbish enough, why in gods name would anyone put the huge drive or one of its partitions for boot?

AND . . . on top of that (as this may qualify as mental illness) GET RID of PM8, before you screw yourself SO badly, you declare chastity for life.

Dont be THIS person: http://www.ntfs.org/forum/showthread...highlight=NTFS

Fat32 may be a tad faster than NTFS, but NTFS is less corruptible and more secure than Fat32.

In the future, when you have questions like this, look under the Windiws section for "Some Hardware Links" http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=9363

and more specifically, use sites like www.NTFS.org, and www.NTFS.com

Heres a neat chart: http://www.ntfs.com/ntfs_vs_fat.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/tre..._and_fat32.asp


Start developing a plan to migrate your data and get things done right for future use.


.

[stts]

You now what it means when you say NTFS is more secure? It means that you cant see your data on the drive when you boot from a dos based disk. That sucks when the drive is corrupt. You cant use the miriad of fixit utilities to save your data. I have a p2p system on win2000 in heavy use that uses a seperate drive for all the temp files. It has a problem that I have been unable to identify that trashes all the files on that drive at least once a week. Windows scandisk is unable to recover the files, but dos based Norton Discdoctor works every time. I tried both NTFS and fat32 and they both corrupt with the same ease. NTFS however is unrecoverable for me because you cant use dos based NDD to recover an NTFS filesystem. Also, I have an identical mirror of this drive and I have recovered my data in the past by useing DOS based Diskedit to copy the format structures(partion table, FAT, Boot sector, Root directory) from the good drive to the bad one and recovered my data. You cant do this if its formated NTFS.

[my name]

i use fat32 with winxp pro. no crashes no curroptions and no nothing.
i have no idea why people using partitioning programs. the fdisk command is extreamly simple. i learned it once when i had to just by reading the options(arnt that many).

or you can ready this(ignore the fact that its writen for win98 it makes no difference)
http://www.auldfart.co.uk/howto/createapartition.html

[Krell]

You now what it means when you say NTFS is more secure?

What I mean is this:

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/ntfs/index.htm

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/file/ntfs/implFAT-c.html

http://www.paulsadowski.com/sadowski/c_ntfs.htm

* SECURITY: FAT16 and FAT32 have absolutely no security for local
folders and files. Anyone who logs on to your computer can gain access to the
files. NTFS allows you to define permissions for every user on each
individual file/folder.

* SEPARATE RECYCLE BINS: On FAT16 and FAT32 volumes, everything you
delete gets put into the same Recycle Bin, regardless of the current logon
account. On NTFS volumes, each user has a unique Recycle Bin.

* ENCRYPTION: To truly secure your sensitive files, encrypt them. NTFS
offers transparent, automatic encryption.

* RECOVERABILITY: NTFS provides the ability to recover from file system
errors. It also performs sector sparing to remap data to good clusters
and mark bad clusters as unusable.

* COMPRESSION: NTFS offers support for file compression, which allows
more space for storage.

* DISK QUOTAS: NTFS also supports disk quotas. This feature helps limit
disk usage on workstations that are shared by multiple users.



Do you have any idea how many people that we tried to talk thru using 3rd party utilities to recover data this past year? Stop using DOS utils to manage and recover NTFS, and quit using esoteric schemas for cashing temp files.


http://www-tcsn.experts-exchange.com..._20792050.html

CAN YOU COMPARE AND CONTRAST THE FAT AND NTFS SYSTEMS

SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE (BUSINESS) “Personal Technology”
Monday Sept 2, 2003 “Q & A Windows” by Jim Coates ,Chicago Tribune

There is a lot of confusion as folks right click on their C: drive icon in Windows
XP, pick properties and see that the file type has changed to NTFS, or New
Technology File System, from their long familiar FAT32. or File Allocation
Table.

NTFS could stand for Never Tell File Secrets, and FAT for Files available
For the Taking. NTFS is a way to format a hard drive that allows users to
encrypt files beyond the powers of even the most proficient hacker.

It also permits file compression far more powerful than the FAT32-bit
system that came with Microsoft operating systems ever since later
versions of Windows 95. The earlier FAT 16-bit system was a DOS
format.

The NTFS benefits are legion. NTFS stores data in orderly rows rather
than scattering it about the hard drive surface willy-nilly as the FAT
systems did.

This makes defragmenting of hard drives far faster and easier. It also
makes the drive spin less to do more, a nice feature that probably
lessens wear and tear on the working parts.

More importantly, NTFS permits huge file sizes of up to the entire drive,
while FAT32 files can be no larger than 2 gigabytes, which means, for
example, that one can store an entire 4.7 gigabyte movie DVD in a single
file on NTFS.

This new file system also facilitates indexing of file contents, which makes
it far faster to do things such as use the Windows Find function to seek a
work processing document by looking for a word buried deep in its text.



Information About Windows and Broadband You Can Use!

January 17, 2002 - Vol. 2, Issue No. 19

By Scot Finnie


Lowdown on the NTFS File System
A lot of you out there are budding operating system experts, whether you know it or not. If you find yourself posing questions about file systems — trust me — you're a hopeless geek. I had to own up to this exact point over a decade ago. It's painful, but it passes.

Why do I say this? Because I'm getting a steady stream of email asking for explanations about the differences between Windows XP's NTFS file system (NTFS stands for New Technology File System, and yes, NT, like Windows NT) and FAT32 (File Allocation Table), which originated in the Windows 95B version but was made popular by Windows 98, Second Edition, and ME.
Most of the questions I've been getting are from people who are considering Windows XP in one fashion or another. To make sure of my answers, I interviewed Microsoft's David Golds, group product manager for file systems and storage. And I have some useful information to pass along to you. Even if file systems sound ... yawn ... boring as heck to you, strap in and check this out for a few minutes.

If you've bought or are buying a new PC with Windows XP, the odds are extremely high that it will come with a single NTFS partition, or volume. One giant Drive C:, that is. Microsoft has tested NTFS with a single partition of up to 19 Terabytes (TB), but the theoretical maximum is at least 8 Petabytes (PB).
By contrast, FAT32 is effectively limited to volume sizes of 2TB (although this point is debatable, and this is a theoretical maximum). One of the big differences is that FAT32 doesn't scale as well as NTFS. The larger the volume size in FAT32, the larger the cluster size. At 64GB, FAT32 moves up to 16K clusters. Even a 512byte file uses 16K of space just to exist under FAT32 on a 64GB volume. That means FAT32 does not store data efficiently on larger volumes. NTFS is able to keep to its 4K cluster size default even on huge disk volumes. NTFS also stores files that are under 700bytes in the Master File Table, where they displace 1K instead of 4K, further improving storage efficiency. No other Windows file system stores files as efficiently as NTFS, especially on large disk volumes.

What's So Good About NTFS? —
It sounds like NTFS might be a hassle, so why would you want it? Surprisingly, there's just no question that you do. NTFS offers a ton of advantages. It's more secure, more efficient, just as fast as FAT32 on typical drives when properly installed, and is extensible in several ways that could make it even more useful in the future.

Here's a few of the advantages:
Reliability. None of those reasons I mentioned in the previous paragraph are the main reason why I like NTFS better. What I really prefer about NTFS is that it's a journaling file system. NTFS literally keeps a log file (Microsoft calls it a write-ahead log because it writes what it's going to do before it does it) of all changes made to the hard disk. That way, if the power goes out or the operating system freezes or some other calamity occurs in the midst of a write to the disk, NTFS can resume the operation automatically as soon as the operating system is running properly again. Under the FAT file systems, that kind of situation winds up in file system or disk corruption — a sort of permanent error that can bring down the operating system or your data like a house of cards. Journaling is the main reason to use NTFS. It doesn't matter whether you're a business user or a home user, NTFS is more reliable. And reliability is what you want from your file system.

Storage efficiency. I've explained this already, so I'll keep it brief. Windows XP's NTFS is far more efficient at storing files than FAT32. In other words, you'll use less space on the disk storing a given set of 1,000 typical files under NTFS than you will with FAT32. And the larger your hard disk, the more true that is. No Windows file system is stores data more efficiently (in the least amount of disk space) than NTFS.

Drive performance. This is less black and white. Microsoft claims performance improvements on boot times. And NTFS is faster than or equal to FAT32 on smaller drives (sub 10GB) according to PowerQuest's Eggett. Microsoft has worked to maximize NTFS's performance, though; and it does appear to be inherently faster than FAT32. But as you grow into larger disk sizes, NTFS retains its smaller cluster sizes (the very attribute that delivers excellent storage efficiency). Smaller cluster sizes drag down performance. My estimate: On drive sizes over 30GB, you can expect modest reductions in NTFS performance over FAT32. According to Eggett, any such reductions really aren't noticeable. The difference is minor. That may sound pretty bad, but it's actually a pretty neat technical achievement. The performance/efficiency thing has long been a trade-off on the desktop.

One other performance point, the actual code size for NTFS is larger than for FAT32. So in a highly memory constrained environment, such as a handheld device or embedded situation, NTFS requires more space, and that can slow things down. On the typical user PC with at least 128MB of RAM, this is pretty much a non-issue.

Security. Every file in NTFS has an ACL (Access Control List). That means that technically you can create user-based security for every file on your computer. What's more, Windows XP Pro has built-in file encryption. Encryption is even preserved in backups. NTFS is far more secure than FAT32.
Disk compression. Remember how you used to use file compression before FAT32? NTFS has always supported file compression. It's just another added benefit.

Link tracking. You know how under Win98 if you create a desktop shortcut for something, if you move that target file, the shortcut is broken? Not so under XP with NTFS, which can dynamically update file shortcuts by automatically searching for the new location of the target file.

Extensibility. I could use up a lot of white space explaining NTFS's architecture. Suffice it to say that every structure in NTFS is nothing more than a simple file. The Master File Table (MFT), directories, free space map, each of these items is a file, not some special structure. Because everything is so simple, and because Microsoft designed NTFS with database properties, the file system is highly extensible, and new functions like Link Tracking, can be added easily. And there are others functions like that already. Built-in disk quotas, for example. This extensibility means that Microsoft can keep innovating with NTFS to make it more and more useful as time goes by.


And Fat32 is better for P2P in what way?

.

[my name]

its all academic stuff. im sure it wont make any difference to a regular user what file system he has. im sure 80% of the pc comunity doesnt even know theres such a thing as a file system.
secure files? whos gona take my files? the boogiman?
takem have fun.

[stts]

I dont need all that security stuff in my file system. I have 1 hard password for entry and nobody is going to guess it. I dont care if I just have 1 recycle bin or that I cant disk quota since I and my family is the only users. I use divx to compress down to 700Mb which is way better than what windows can do so I dont waste 4.7gigs of drive space. I use a p2p app that does outstanding job at getting files that seem to be rocking the entertainment industry. Unfortunately, it crashes often and I must recover the temp files on the seperate drive I use for that p2p. When I format fat32, I have been able to recover all those files consistently. When I format NTFS, I end up kissing all those partly downloaded temp files goodbye and I have to start all those DL's over again from scratch. The loss of my data is totally unacceptable and I will stick with win2k on fat32 for the forseeable future. By the way, I have 13 WD2000JB's in my big system currently and they are all fat32 with virtually no wasted space because all the files are large. With large files, fat32 is every bit as space efficient as NTFS.

One other note I discoverd. I put my winxp laptop on my network and I discovered that my other pc's cant access the ProgramFiles directory of my laptop and xp wont let me share it. And thats not the only directory unshareable either. What a hassle. When I want my drive shared I expect the whole thing unless I lock out a directory of my choice. Now xp complicates that more and I have to copy crap to my shared folder to be seen on the network. Its such a hassle and there is no point in remote administration if I have to keep going back to the laptop to putts around with access rights.

[stts]

LOL the boogiman, thats a good one.

[Psilaxs]

its all academic stuff. im sure it wont make any difference to a regular user what file system he has. im sure 80% of the pc comunity doesnt even know theres such a thing as a file system.
secure files? whos gona take my files? the boogiman?
takem have fun.

Then you never ran a system under dos/Win 95/Win 98 if you say that.
Constant hard drive corruption, scan disk, error checking severely fragmented files, ahh the good 'ol days. It does make a difference to users, as that is what forced me to move away from fat16/32 operating systems.

[begoodbebad]

I used Partition Magic 8 many times, for formatting new drives and for making changes to drives already in use. It has always worked flawlessly for me. It comes with all the documentation you could need and is simple. A person can always back up their data before using it (as recommended) and if MauerPower is just going to convert the bootable partition containing the OS then what is the big deal. If it screws up (which it almost certainly won't if you read the manual) and you didn't back up then you just format and clean install the OS and apps and you end up with a nice new system (and a day missing from your life of course :upside ).

I followed the link about pm8 and the user having difficulty seems to have decided to partition his drive with no research, no time spent with the manual, no understanding of what he was doing, just an irresistable desire to press the big red button :devil . PM8 comes with a flash presentation and full documents. It's not a bad idea for a new user to take 5 minutes looking at the flash and print the documentation b4 beginning a major exercise like modifying your HDD!

But however you do it NTFS is the one to use for XP.