P2P in real world appilcations

[PatientSaint]

I thought that since some people on here only see P2P as a vehicle to trade files (mainly Music and movies). I figured i'd get some information to you on on some real P2P possibilities and its practicality in the world today

http://www.ud.com/company/gc/seti@home.htm

this company is one which specializes in software that links up users worldwide to solves problems that even bogs down some supercomputers. I'm sure there are more out there but i while back i was given a link to these people and they had a program which was decoding genetics to try and solve some cancers. This is the potential of P2P that i'd really liek some people to see. Actualyl scratch that i found the link again. I think we should all pitch in for this :)

http://members.ud.com/projects/cancer/index.htm

[Caitlyn Marble]

Go Patient Saint! This is something we all should d/l and make use of.

[Arby]

PatientSaint informs us about a use of p2p that is other than the stealing that RIAA, MPAA et al say it’s all about. Actually, I think that United Devices may represent more serious stealing than anything music file sharers are doing. Then again, seeing things that way depends on your values. If you’re a gung ho capitalist, then capitalism is holy and capitalists can’t do any wrong. If you both believe that mankind is an interdependent proposition, and act accordingly, then you may question market assumptions. Indeed, That is easier today than ever.

United Devices isn’t publicly funded. The capitalists have been getting away with socializing the costs and privatizing the profits for a long time now. In a word, they steal. And that includes biopiracy. I don’t believe Darwin is the answer. Nor do I condone exploitation and oppression. Therefore I don’t agree with capitalism. Would I like to see it done better? Of course I would. (Less exploitation and oppression is always better than more.) But most of those who want to see it done better still believe in it. I don’t. And I expect to see it destroyed soon.

“The Texas-based firm RiceTec was granted a patent for “Basmati” rice in 1997, even though in its patent application RiceTec admits that India and Pakistan have grown Basmati for generations. The patent was revealed in a recent report to have been inappropriately licensed from the public trust. RiceTec altered the traditional Indian rice very slightly. Granting a U.S. patent for a product native to India drew heavy protests in New Dehli, since Basmati is an important export crop with more than half a million tons sent to Europe, America and the Middle East each year. A coalition of eminent Indian civil society groups sent a letter to the U.S. ambassador to India challenging the premise of the U.S. intellectual property position, stating: “The truth is that the U.S. is pirating the intellectual property of the farmers, healers, tribals, fisherfolk of India and other developing countries.” Under the TRIPS Agreement, India is required to enforce the American company’s patent right over Indian farmers.” - from pg 109 of WHOSE TRADE ORGANIZATION?, by Lori Wallach and Michelle Sforza (www.citizen.org)

“Now market orthodoxy is coming apart as a result of its own distinctive failures. It can neither explain the economic disorders before us nor remedy them because, in fact, its doctrine of reckless laissez-faire produced them. The bursting bubbles are not accidents or the work of a few larceny-prone executives.” - The Nation magazine, Aug 19/26, 2002, pg 3. I agree with this assessment. And I would emphasize that it’s one thing when an individual makes mistakes, or commits crimes, and must pay the consequences. Of course, one’s actions rarely have consequences for only that person. Others are affected. A suicide, for example, hurts his or her friends and family. If the suicide victim has no friends or family, no doubt someone who learns of the suicide is saddened. Setting aside degrees, When we move into the world of capitalists and into capitalism’s higher echelons, we see that criminal activities affect ‘many’, and the effects are serious.

The editorial, titled “Bubble Capitalism,” which I quoted from above, also notes that with all of these corrupt corporations going bust, ‘the self-righteous prestige of Citigroup and J.P. Morgan Chase and stock analysts are going pop too’. And, I might add, the integrity of the mainstream media which knew about these things, has gone pop, in the sense that it knows how the system works, and yet, while all of this evil was cooking, it kept silent. “These dizzying events are not an occasion for champagne music [to progressives who might enjoy the discrediting of the concept of laissez faire government] because the bursting bubbles have cast millions of Americans into deep personal losses, destroying trillions of dollars in capital, especially retirement savings, and littered the economic landscape with corporate wreckage.”

Unfortunately, The Nation is left-liberal and itself believes in capitalism and can easily count it’s own contributors as being among those who it suggests “can neither explain the economic disorders before us nor remedy them, because, in fact, its doctrine of reckless laissez-faire produced them.” The editorial goes on to suggest that’s there’s hope - in reform. There isn’t. Reform would be nice. But it’s all relative. If we were all mushy reformers whose foundational beliefs are no different than those who made things so bad that reform was needed, then that would get us nowhere. That is to say, That would not get us to the best place we could go, namely someplace without exploitative capitalism. I personally don’t believe that you can have a ‘good’ capitalism. I don’t even believe in money. Money exists for one reason only, namely so that some can have more of it, and more of what it can buy, than others. But that’s another discussion - or this one widened.

While United Devices represents corporate health and medicine, namely areas that, even in a capitalist context, should positively be socialized (the way Canada’s Health system is, or was), I will say that PatientSaint is right that UD shows us how p2p technology can be used in interesting and beneficial ways. Of course, there’s no reason why the sort of p2p-assisted research that UD is doing can’t be done by hospitals and doctors in a publicly funded system. But when corporations already aren’t paying all of their taxes, the last thing I want to do is give them free money by saving them from paying their own way. Especially when it’s biotech, which UD is a part of, do I not want to assist them. On the contrary.

One of the greatest perversities that capitalists have performed and continue to perform is the scamming of the public, with the complicity of the mainstream media, into agreeing with more (costly) tax cuts, while corporations and the wealthy, via a whole slew of loopholes and other legislated (by bought and paid for politicians) meaures, actually don’t pay all of their taxes. Governments aid and abet this theft, then turn around and claim that they can’t afford social spending!!! No kidding! About 40 million Americans don’t have health coverage in the world’s most powerful, richest?, democracy.

The tax burden, as statistics will (clearly) show, has shifted from corporations and the wealthy disproportionately onto the backs of no- and low-income Canadians (Americans, etc.), completely turning on it’s head the idea of a ‘progressive’ tax system. You have ‘tax expenditures’ (literally hand-outs to companies on the trickle down theory that if companies do well, they’ll produce crumbs that might fall off their tables to those who have zilch), ‘deferred taxes’ or, in the U.S., ‘accelerated depreciation taxes’ (which means, as one Canadian federal politician once was so impolitic to note, simply taxes that will never be paid), ‘offshore tax havens’ and ‘international business companies’ (which Enron used to the tune of over 600; Also, See Ken Silverstein’s Mother Jones article, “Trillion-Dollar Hideaway,” archived on the Mother Jones magazine website.), and ‘Export Processing Zones’.

See Naomi Klein’s book, NO LOGO to get a good idea what those are all about. In a word, They are a tax holiday for cost cutting, social deficit causing corporations. They are zones in developing countries where there are zero rules, and where the minimal rules that there are aren’t followed. In them, big companies like Nike, General Electric and you name it, have contracted out work done in slave factories. They were touted by the United Nations back in 1964 as a way for developing nations to get a leg up and kick start their industrialization. Of course, as William Greider notes in ONE WORLD, READY OR NOT, this naturally was at the expense of the weak and vulnerable. They were supposed to fade away however. Rather than fade away, EZPs have grown and are a regular feature of cost cutting, neoliberal capitalism. Slavery is alive and well, with something like 850 EZPs worldwide (NO LOGO was published in 2000. Therefore, 850 is no doubt a too low figure now.), spread over some 70 countries and employing approximately 27 million workers. That’s a lot of slaves.

“A new candidate to become center of the file-swapping universe has been unveiled: Vanuatu, a small group of Islands in the South Pacific.
That's where Sharman Networks, the parent company of the hugely popular Kazaa software, is registered to do business, according to Chief Executive Nikki Hemming. After months of speculation about the mysterious file-trading company, Hemming went public with this and other details of her business in a conference call late Tuesday.” - from “Kazaa steps out of the shadows,” April 23, 2002, by John Borland, staff writer for CNET.

The Biotechnology Industry Organization recently held it’s annual get together, Bio 2002, in Toronto, and running parallel to it was a meeting held by it’s critics and opponents called Biojustice - Biodiversity (www.biodev.org/action.html). David Suzuki is a prominent Canadian scientist (who I personally dislike, and the feeling is mutual), the Chair of the David Suzuki Foundation and the host of a popular science program on television called The Nature Of Things. He notes that “In the future, biotechnology may in fact be a very important part of the environmental and the health and food crisis that we are going to encounter in the coming years. But believe me, it’s far too soon to have any of this stuff in our food stream in our medical stream or out in the open fields.” (See The Toronto Star, June 10, 2002; “Suzuki sounds alarm bells,” by Rachel Ross.) So then, Why do we? It is because we have traitorous politicians who listen to us at election time, and then, once they’re elected - which they are greatly assisted in with huge contributions from rich corporations - they listen only to the big contributors to their campaigns, who are, after all, members of their own well-off capitalist class. (See www.howdarethey.org)

Suzuki continues: “We have been involved in a massive experiment for five years now... GMOs [genetically modified organisms] are in the food stream and we’ve never given our consent!” I personally don’t believe in democracy. I agree with some of the things that people say democracy means. But I don’t believe that man is God. But I do believe in fairness. And what Suzuki is emphasizing here is fairness. He’s not saying biotechnology has no place in society’s progress, and he’s not saying that it won’t accomplish what it’s proponents say it will accomplish. (And I disagree with him on those points.) That’s just not the point. He’s saying that they, the pro-biotech folks ‘and’ the politicians who work for them, aren’t listening to us, and he’s saying that that’s seriously disconcerting.

Too often, those with political power do what they want - at the expense of the wider society and with very dire consequences. Look at the freakish, destructive global weather events that are in the news daily right now! That’s the result of human, industrial activity, which folks of all political stripes are acknowledging. More importantly, the very scientists who have been commissioned to make that determination have indeed come to that conclusion. (Interestingly, George Bush senior gave the go-ahead to scientists to study that very question, and they recently arrived at the conclusion that global warming etc, is indeed as a result of human activities. Since it went counter to the present U.S. admin’s ‘oil is well’ line, the report got no serious press. It’s on the EPA website, somewhere, reportedly. I had a look around, but didn’t really know what I was looking for. It didn’t help that there were all these broken links there.

[gorphon]

you give a small bit of info and get a short essay on the dangers of capitalization... which was, btw, pretty well written. But I must point out that you jumped all around and almost seemed to purposefully avoid your central point as staded in your first paragraph... what exactly does United Devices havet odo with any of what you spoke about? Indeed, your essay was informative, but it misses this central point. The ony argument we get is UD=biotech=capitalists= Bad! and this is just plain foolishness surrounded by a long, informative essay on the danges of globalization and large capitalist run companies. I am not saying I disagree with you, just that I am guessing that you've been staring at shadows for too long or forgot to back up your main point whatwith all the other info you had to give.

heres another link: Team Discovery

[Arby]

As you wish.

[PatientSaint]

Well i was trying to let some people know there are some legit uses of P2P applications instead u make it a capitalist over taking scheme. But, honestly you don't really want to get into my economic views as i can tell you're socialist which is cool everyone is entitled to their opinion. I jsut don't see how u got from some research project( which if u read the homepage is based in Oxford UK) to how bad capitalism is and how it is going to sink the world. *shrugs* If it help any i think Bush is stupidest president :cross ( this is coming fro ma Texan as well ) ;)

[Arby]

At no point did I say I was a socialist. It's fundamentally dishonest for you to call me one, as though I have suggested that I am one. And I must say your tone is insulting.

I have no use for capitalism. Your obsession with my political views won't change them. I welcome anyone's thoughts - about anything. But I'm not representing anyone or any group, and I resent being misrepresented. I have my opnions about this ideology and that group and so forth. But I believe in simple, as opposed to worldly, honesty. Which means that I will not deliberately misrepresent anyone or any group. I do not try to manipulate people.

A political discussion is just what is needed on a website like this. I applaud someone's decision to create it. Capitalists are causing problems for the free p2p community. (If that fact bothers you, that's not my problem or my fault. If you believe in capitalism, that is fine by me. I'm not suggesting that every capitalist is of the Kenneth Lay variety. Do you know who Kenneth Lay is? Is it your opnion that socialists are causing problems for the free p2p community? Good grief!) But the point is, Do you folks want to know what's hitting you or not?

Furthermore, It's disheartening that I can make an effort to contribute to the kind of discussion that you folks need more of, and then be shot down for it -by folks who are 'not' contributing anything to the discussion.

I will not respond to lamers and flamers. If you don't hear from me in the future, you may want to remember that.

[PatientSaint]

I don't think my tone was condenscening. As for the flaming one my friend u are the belligerant one. I am trying to be open minded about things. As for capitalism affecting P2P that's your call on that although i'd make the arguement system isn't wrong jsut the people running it are. Every ecominic system has it's faults it's jsut a matter of the people running it making up for it. I don't blame systems like it seems you are i blame the fears of the people running it. Much as i hate to admit it the world is based on money that's the point of every economic system. I don't think personally that is the point of life but you need moeny to get the basics you need in an industrial soceity. I don't mean to be rude or pry but would you enlighten me on the best way an economic system should be ran? Tell me who deiceides to make what and when and at what cost. Should it be more enviromentally concerned or should it concern the ecomnomics of it's citizens? Personally i think a proper balance can be made. I support capitalism to a degree i think it should be a modified free enterprise ecomony. I know you prolyl would have your gripes about that as well. Which i am open to hear. If you are going to be forwardly belligerent about your views and ideas at least back them up witth you ideas at least. For as far as i see my friend u are dancing around them. i would love to hear your ideas and expand upon my own. you see not everyone is close minded. I think understanding each other isa key to solvinga lot ofthe world's problems. So further more i am here and willing if you want to talk cordially.

[evilmegaman]

An idea I really liked was matt's cell phone idea where the cell phones all connected to eachother to have a better reception.

[gorphon]

as you didnt respond to me I guess I am either a lamer or flamer.... hmm... I wonder if everyone who doesnt agree with- or merely questions- your point of view falls into one of the above categories. And you speak of condescension and in the same breath write as if you are of some sort of political elite. All we're telling you is to stick to the topic. If you wantto have a debate over socialism and capitalism I am all for it, but make it its own thread. Since the point of your little essay was, in your own words, " that United Devices may represent more serious stealing (such perfect grammar!) than anything music file sharers are doing" and your only background information involved quoting other peoples works about entirely different companies.... well, Id give you an F if it were a paper I was grading and you were given the topic beforehand... going just on content, well, its worth a C.

Pisses you off doesnt it? to be talked down to.... keep that in mind the next time you post here. That was my only point in the last few sentences.

Its fundamentally dishonest to deny your subjectivity, to consider yourself preordained to be more objectivethan others, and to become semihostile when your beliefs are questioned in the slightest. You seem to have a lot of good info, and no doubt No Logo is a good book... but having read it, researched the topic and even understanding it fully does NOT give you the ability to preach the gospel and expect unquestioning devotion.

Ive had my say.

[Arby]

gryphon wrote:

"As for capitalism affecting P2P that's your call on that although i'd make the arguement system isn't wrong jsut the people running it are. Every ecominic system has it's faults it's jsut a matter of the people running it making up for it. I don't blame systems like it seems you are i blame the fears of the people running it. Much as i hate to admit it the world is based on money that's the point of every economic system"

Seriously, You don't know what you're talking about, and there's nothing that I can do about that. I know you're a great person. You are reasonable and nice etc, etc.. You say so. Therefore it must be so. Besides, Your pretty sure that as long as the fellow arguing with you (who you don't know at all) is an anti-capitalist, then most of the other folks here will back you up when you get nasty with him. Right?

Shooting the messenger isn't going to make your file sharing safer, nor is it going to improve your hopelessly flawed capitalism. You can whine at me for pointing it out, which I've done in an authoritative manner. But that doesn't change anything.

We simply have to agree to disagree, if you can do that. I know I can. But really, Where the heck is your contribution to the discussion? What are you offering me that refutes my claims that the system which you worship and the holy money that you believe in is all there is or will ever be? I mean, This 'is' a political thread, Isn't it? Go for it! Is someone stopping you from getting serious about this discussion?

I'll bet you know more about computers and programming and file sharing than I do. I can say that with a fair amount of confidence. But that doesn't make me upset with you. A little jealous perhaps. But that situation is hardly going to make me want to beat you up. On the contrary, I come to forums like these because I think that folks like yourselves have something to offer me when it comes to knowledge about computers and file sharing. As for myself, I don't need to beat anybody up. That's not the way I get my kicks. I'm not a glory seeker. I don't join the nasty crowd. If I happen to be on top of the political situation - and trust me, in relation to others political animals, I know diddly squat - and feel that I can offer you folks (and I 'am' a file sharer myself) viewpoints that can assist you (how exactly, I don't know) in your efforts to deal with the problems that Hollings, Berman, et al are causing us, Why is that a problem for you?

If you can't see that capitalism is the root of the problem here, I think you're spinning your wheels big time. If you see things differently, Well that's okay by me. Our having different views on this matter isn't something, necessarily, that's going to stop me from continuing to care about social injustices, including the stomping on little people, like us file sharers, that those with power continue to do. Bottom line: If you want to be my friend, you don't have to believe what I believe or see things the same way as I do. We don't have to agree on the big issues. But that doesn't mean I believe that you're doing yourself a favor.

By way of clarification: By 'authoritative', I do not mean 'special'. I do not mean someone who is laden with accreditation. While such ones certainly are authoritative in many cases, that in fact doesn't mean that they can't also be 'authoritarian', which is a problem. You can teach two ways, namely in an 'authoritative' manner or else in an 'authoritarian' manner.

I believe that among humans, 'good' teaching means teaching that is both teaching 'and' learning. In other words, Humility is important. If I don't think that I can learn something from those who I teach, then I reveal thereby that I really don't have anything to teach - in the long run.

The person who teaches in an authoritarian manner says 'This is how it is, because I say so' and doesn't add anything to that. It's all about the teacher rather than the subject. The person who teaches authoritatively says 'This is how it is, and I'll try to explain to you why I think so'. Then he (or she) proceeds to reason with his audience. There's two-way communication. The sources of information which the authoritative person consulted and which led him to the conclusions he's now sharing with others are pointed to by him. The audience members therefore have the option of consulting those same sources of information. That approach has the benefit (depending on your values) of allowing feedback that can correct the teacher/ learner's faulty ideas, since a student/ teacher may draw different 'and' correct conclusions from examining the same information that the teacher/ student drew. As long as there is meaningful, well-intentioned dialog, such progress is possible.

Later...

[gorphon]

check it out my man....
first off the name is gorphon, second I didnt say any of that and third.... I dont think anyone here at zeropaid has anything against anticapitalists... If you stick around enough you would surely realize that. And as for shooting the messenger.... well, what was the message again? That big business isgoing to come down hard on file sharing? What a shock that was to me! To me, this seemed obvious. Speaking for myself, I have no problem whatsoever with your views, you may even find that we agree on more things than you could possibly realize. My problem is simply that you have no real backing for your intended point.... and for the record I challenge you to find anyone on this site who 'worships the system' or the 'holy money' ofwhich you speak. The majority of regulars on thissite consider themselves pirates, file sharers, or file sharing pirates. The definition of pirate here being: One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization. Hmmm.... ifyou can agree with me on this then it should be obvious that none of us are good capitalists. We all wouldwish to see the big corporations and big money burn to the ground.... we might even dance around the fire and roast marshmallows wile we sang our favorite (copywritten of course) songs.

You seem like you are of highly above average intelligence arby and I do not disagree with your views butmerely with your presentation and point you are trying to prove. Im not asking you to change any of yourviews or conform, merely to take your thoughts to their logical conclusions before posting things insultingto members of this site... it was you who originally found something said insulting and then glibly started insulting others yourself. Worship the system... indeed. So. I do believe you have a lot to add to any conversation here arby, but I do NOT see you as a messenger. sorry dude, most ofthe regulars here are fully aware of the legality of what they do and do it anyways- and not simply for the bragging rights of having massive amounts of copywritten information. My point being, no one will shoot the messenger. So enjoy it here, and do not forget (as I believe you did state something of the sort) that you have as much to learn as you do to teach.
and for myself... ofcourse capitalism is the root of the problem, its a great idea in theory. but coupled with the human instinct with survival- in this situation, in a political or business sense, power/money=survival- well, capitalism is more full ofrot, more full of corruption than communist russia... which was another great ideal, communism that is, but horribly implemented as someone must always be the ruling class. But you know doubt no all this, I imagine you are likely a well informed, constructive, anarchist. And your manner of speaking comes from the knowledge that if enough others believed as you then we could truly change the world. But that does not give you the right, as I said before, to preach the gospel and expect unquestioning belief. You yourself, being on the flip side of the coin, would not do so. Anyways, I say enough of all this foolish debate, it is a dead end as is, lets talk about something more clearly defined then political structures and their effect on filesharing. Like whether or not filesharing really hurts the capitalists, and if not, why they bitch and moan like it does...


And one more thing: Cant we all just get along? :wings

[gorphon]

if you have any specific info on UD Id love to hear it....

[Ken17625]

Well all this has certainly been informative......and entertaining.

[PatientSaint]

ok i'll agree with everything GORPHON wrote. Again i'll say you really haven't stated much other than preaching alot about nothing. If you give me set examples i'll be fine to see your point of view. I can see u are obviosly educated which is great hey more information you have the more power to you bro. I never said i was anti-capitalist btw. you took the defensive on that my friend. For you to rally say moeny isn't the basis on any econmy i am sorry any other point is a lie. I mself just need the essentails in life but in the bigger picture i do need moeny for those few things. I'll say once again give me an idea of your economic principles and then u can start to make whatever point u are making besides capitalism is whats wrong. Although i'd still make the point in any system the idea works on paper just it's in reality between human interaction will it work. I haven't read u suggesting any system or political agenda. As for Gorphon wow man hey if u wanna PM me anytime u seem lieka very interesting intellingent person as well as arby and i'd really love to sit down with both of you an discuss ideas for as i say misunderstanding is mostly the root of all evil. I jsut want to better understand what you are saying Arby i have never in my posts "shot the messenger". I feel i have reasonably asked you to explain some of your ideas in discussion so anytime you are ready to get off the defensive standpoint and amicably discuss ideas let me know ireally would love to hear them for expanding the mind is a great thing. :)