Death Metal Rock Music - Christian View on why rock music should be banned

[Shadow, Thief of the Sun]

Lets continue our discussion about connection between music and crimes/insanity/murders etc. Here's what i have - an article "Death Metal Rock Music" from some Baptist group. I believe that its quite stupid, but i'm not sure that you will feel the same. Take a look at some excerpts:

"July 3, 1999 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) - Death Metal (also known as Black or Goth Metal, Shock Rock, or Grindcore) which arose in the 1990s in the United States and Europe, and has spread to Japan and other parts of the world, focuses on "a lyrical glorification of all things morbid and decaying" (Michael Moynihan, Lords of Chaos: The Blood Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground, 1998, p. 29). It is exercising a vast influence upon young people today, through recordings, concerts, and the Internet. "Between 1989-1993 Death Metal had become immensely popular worldwide, with bands drawing crowds in the thousands on an average night" (Ibid., p. 31). Black Metal "songs" exhibit a fascination with violence and death in general, murder, torture, rape, dismemberment, and mayhem. Death Metal groups have names like Venom, Extreme Noise Terror, Napalm Death, Unleashed, Darkthrone, Vicious Circle, Carcass, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Dismember, Deicide, Entombed, Cradle of Filth, Necropolis, and Obituary. Tampa, Florida, has been a center for some of the most popular Death Metal groups, including Morbid Angel and Deicide. Another center for Death Metal is Scandinavia, particularly Sweden and Norway. Some of the groups also praise Nazism and celebrate pagan gods. All exhibit an anti-Christian philosophy. Lead singer for the Swedish band Unleashed, Johnny Hedlund, makes "fervent declarations on the necessity of destroying the Christian religion" (Lords of Chaos, p. 30). Deicide has songs about the joy of killing Jesus. Lead singer Glen Benton, who branded an inverted cross on his forehead, named his son Daemon (”master of the supernatural”). Deicide’s bass player, Eric Hoffman, says, “Death metal is Satanic. We relay our music all into Satanism.” Varg Vikernes of the Death Metal group Burzum worships Odin, the Viking god of war and death, “the enemy of the Christian God.

Rock music has always been associated with an anti-Christian attitude, an immoral lifestyle, and violence. The first rock concert in 1952 (called a Moon Dog Ball), which was organized by disc jockey Alan Freed, resulted in a riot that sent mobs of young people rampaging through the streets of Cleveland, Ohio. Riots, beatings, and stabbings occurred at other Freed concerts. Following a riot in Boston in 1958, rock concerts were banned in several cities and Freed was kicked out of the concert business. Freed, called by Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock "the original Pied Piper of rock & roll," allegedly was the first to apply the term "rock and roll" to the new Blues-based music. He died in 1965 at age 42, penniless and drunken. Freed well epitomizes the wretched history of rock & roll.

The members of the German Death Metal group Absurd, composed of three high school students (Hendrik Mobus, Sebastian Schauscheill, and Andreas K.), murdered a 15-year-old classmate in April 1993. The group also called themselves "Children of Satan." Band leader Hendrik Mobus stated in an interview that we are at "the dawn of the New Aeon, when Christendom will perish and a neo-heathen state will arise" (Lords of Chaos, p. 260).

A member of the French Death Metal band Funeral, Anthony Mignoni (who uses the pseudonym "Hades"), says he created the group "to spread my ideas based on the destruction of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religions, and on the purity and supremacy of the true Aryan race" (Lords of Chaos, p. 275). He was convicted of desecrating a grave in 1996. He and three others exhumed the body of Yvonne Foin, who had been dead 20 years, and placed a cross in the cadaver’s heart area. Another youth police believe to be associated with Mignoni, David Oberdorf, murdered a priest by stabbing him 33 times with a dagger. He then carved on the body after the man was dead. He had confronted the priest with the words, "I am possessed by the demon—I must annihilate men of religion!" Investigators found a collection of death metal CDs in the teen’s room, and neighbors testified that they had heard "gnawing music, hard and stressful" blaring from his room.

In April 1999, Death Metal lovers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold walked onto the campus of their high school in Littleton, Colorado, and brutally murdered 12 fellow students and a teacher and wounded 20 others before taking their own lives. Some of those murdered were picked out because they were Christians. Before they shot 17-year-old Cassie Bernall to death, they asked, "Do you believe in God?" She replied, "Yes," and they shot her. They laughed as they destroyed and mangled their victims. Witnesses reported that "they were just hooting and hollering, having the time of their lives." Harris and Klebold loved the most wretched forms of rock music, particularly Marilyn Manson and German "techno" and Death Metal rock groups.

Marilyn Manson rips apart Bibles on stage and says: "Hopefully, I’ll be remembered as the one who brought an end to Christianity. … Each age must have at least one brave individual that tries to bring an end to Christianity. ... No one has managed to succeed yet; maybe through music we can finally do it" (Spin, August 1996, p. 34). We have news for Mr. Manson. True Christianity will never end. Of those who believe on Jesus Christ for salvation, Christ promised they "shall not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Everlasting is a very long time. John Lennon once said Christianity will vanish and shrink; I needn’t argue about that; I’m right and will be proved right" (Newsweek, March 21, 1966). Lennon is gone. Church of Satan founder Anton Lavey, who exercised much influence upon rock & roll, said that Christianity would be finished if a representative of the Church of Satan could have just one hour on national TV (Lords of Chaos, p. 236), but LaVey is gone. Jimi Hendrix considered the laws of God a form of bondage and saw himself as a liberator of young people from Bible-believing Christianity (‘Scuse Me While I Kiss the Sky, pp. 214,215), but he is gone. Famous Satanist Aleister Crowley, who had a large influence upon modern rock music and who has been glorified by rock stars such as Ozzy Osbourne, David Bowie, Graham Bond, the Beatles, and Mick Jagger, once offered himself to the Russian authorities to help destroy Christianity (Steve Turner, Hungry for Heaven, p. 92). Crowley is gone, though. After Marilyn Manson is gone, biblical Christianity will continue forever.

Why is it that it is rock music that is always connected with debachery and violence, and not classical music or "easy listening" or bluegrass or Christian hymns? The fact is that Rock corrupts. Rock injures. Rock maims. Rock kills."

You can read this article here > http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/deathmetal.htm

Notice the fact that this article is called "Death Metal Rock Music" and in the end author is mentioning track by Queen. Stupid approach towards music in general, i guess.

[TipYourBartender]

Well, guess I'm going to hell.

[Winphuk]

This contraversy has been going on since rock n roll started in the 50s. Crazy fundamentalists should go back to the zoo.

[aqlo]

If that guy was real he would be feeding the hungry and clothing the naked like he was told instead of bitching about these damn kids and their terrible music. And if somebody blew his eardrum out with some awful ozfest squeal he would just turn the other ear.

Jesus can't save / what He never forgave

[Wings_of_Azrael]

I can already hear one of these sleaze-balls slurring in their southern accent, "death metal rock music." They didn't even bother to make the distinction between Black Metal and Death Metal. Two entirely different genres that originated in two different continents, mostly dealing with entirely different topics/ideologies, with entirely different sounds/moods, ect., ect.

I remember reading one article by a guy claiming that all drums are evil and that contemporary Christian music itsself is evil for having them. He said it was because the drum beats originated in Africa, where the Africans would dance and worship their pagan gods to the beat of the drum. So basically, all Africans, South Americans, and cool Europeans are all going to hell (Asians too, for being Buddhist, Shinto, Taoist, ect) for listening to music with a groove. I give these people no credence whatsoever.

[Grandmasta]

wow, sensationalism. feel my shock and amazement.

I do agree that german techno is one of the most wretched forms of music there is, though.

[ZippyTheVengefulAlpaca]

I guess whoever wrote that never heard of Stryper.. saying that "Rock music has always been associated with an anti-Christian attitude, an immoral lifestyle, and violence." yes, Stryper, and other white metal bands that I don't know, where often antichristian... I hate it when people blame violent acts on music and/or video games, when its clearly a parents or natures fault. yea.. anyway, i'm off to go blastpheme and stuff..

[DETROIT]

These people in our world today need to take responsibility for their selves, ect their thoughts, actions. People like this need to stop blaming others. This just shows how weak their minds our. As long as know it is only music you are fine.

Peace! :shy

[Krell]

In 1984 . . I took a large group of teens to Dallas, Tx to see STRYPER, with their "Yellow & Black Attack " album.

At first I was suspicious of them, and I questioned the their motives and methodology. Spandex, big hair and make-up isnt a traditional tool to try to reach people in a spiritual sense.

Since I had hung out with the Rez Band, and Daniel Amos, White Heart, Steve taylor, etc, I was open to new ideas and the thought of being less conventional. I had a friend in a christian metal band, who was bashed in a news letter by David Wilkerson.

I watched these guys get a whole auditoruim of people with body piercing and mohawks to sit down while they played acoustic and acapella, which takes some talent. Afterwards I had the opportunity to talk to Micheal Sweet, and although he was barraged with young girls, I found him to be very genuine. These young men were not "anti-christian", they were original.

One thing I learned in that scene, is that none of these people are perfect, or deserve to be worshipped. They have their share of problems. It was the same with White Heart, or the Sweet Comfort Band, whom I still despise.
(not Amy Grant, she was a sweety, I asked her for coffee)

David Wilkerson once accused Elvis of being a Pied Piper, piping our kids to hell. Then he changed his mind. Then he changed it again. Then he bashed my friends.

I do want to say this. Contemporary christian music, has a history of immitating secular music. So if you have little to offer, or nothing more than spandex for a paycheck, then get out. I have a problem with these so called "christian raves" . . . Now I have been to raves, and I cant connect the dots.

The Resurrection Band, aka Rez Band, were some of the hardest rockers I ever met, anywhere. Glen Kaiser, Stu, Wendy, were also the most GENUINE people I had ever met. They were 100% real, no fakers.

Bottem line is, if you want first hand information, dont listen to the baptists, or the people who are really closer to Kevin Bacon than knowing anything about this subject, go find out yourself.

.

[KurtCocain]

WTF,

look at the black music -- all that rap/hip-hop, etc trash - what the hell do they sing about: beatches, drugs, beatches, drugs, drugs, guns, murders, high competant in swearing.... that's superbly positive i guess and following the religious ideologies ...

[crazytrain]

Screw them they just want to draw attention to themselves.
I've been listening to all types of metal music for years and never once has it made me want to go kill someone.

It's just like KurtCocain said what about this music they call crap oops im mean rap.All it talks about is doing drugs.If I get arrested im going to blame it on rap music and tell the cops Nelly made me do it. :shy

[dogfood91]

Christians are saying music provokes violence? hahahahaha Religion promotes more violence in this world than ANYTHING else. Wars, the crusades, salem withcraft trials etc... I'm atheist and though i believe in the morals which religions "try" to teach they a a very poor way to teach them, especially when those trying to teach the morals rape little boys. Fuck that bullshit article.

[bobhss]

Originally posted by Krell
In 1984 . . I took a large group of teens to Dallas, Tx to see STRYPER, with their "Yellow & Black Attack " album.

At first I was suspicious of them, and I questioned the their motives and methodology. Spandex, big hair and make-up isnt a traditional tool to try to reach people in a spiritual sense.

Since I had hung out with the Rez Band, and Daniel Amos, White Heart, Steve taylor, etc, I was open to new ideas and the thought of being less conventional. I had a friend in a christian metal band, who was bashed in a news letter by David Wilkerson.

I watched these guys get a whole auditoruim of people with body piercing and mohawks to sit down while they played acoustic and acapella, which takes some talent. Afterwards I had the opportunity to talk to Micheal Sweet, and although he was barraged with young girls, I found him to be very genuine. These young men were not "anti-christian", they were original.

One thing I learned in that scene, is that none of these people are perfect, or deserve to be worshipped. They have their share of problems. It was the same with White Heart, or the Sweet Comfort Band, whom I still despise.
(not Amy Grant, she was a sweety, I asked her for coffee)

David Wilkerson once accused Elvis of being a Pied Piper, piping our kids to hell. Then he changed his mind. Then he changed it again. Then he bashed my friends.

I do want to say this. Contemporary christian music, has a history of immitating secular music. So if you have little to offer, or nothing more than spandex for a paycheck, then get out. I have a problem with these so called "christian raves" . . . Now I have been to raves, and I cant connect the dots.

The Resurrection Band, aka Rez Band, were some of the hardest rockers I ever met, anywhere. Glen Kaiser, Stu, Wendy, were also the most GENUINE people I had ever met. They were 100% real, no fakers.

Bottem line is, if you want first hand information, dont listen to the baptists, or the people who are really closer to Kevin Bacon than knowing anything about this subject, go find out yourself.

.

Ok, surprise the crap out of me Krell. I personally don't like Rez Band's music, it's just not me, but I whole heartedly support their effort. They are JPUSA people and the JPUSA people put on Cornerstone, so I've also ran across Glen Kaiser (he was actually at the wedding last year) there.

When it comes to music, their is nothing evil about notes. Tourniquet, my favorite band, is hard Christian type music. I listen to all sorts of hard stuff in the Christian "genre". I grew up in a Fundamentalist Baptist Church, but I can't see how this guy and others like him think music is evil. I consider my self a "Christian" before I consider myself "baptist". Whatever comes out of a man's heart is what makes him evil.

[emohXc]

wow,
I must say that of the ? years I've been daily visiting this forum(like since the early stages of the whole "wall of shame" debacle) I've never felt compelled to actually say something until now. This kinda stuff just really bugs me. I'm a christian and I've been listening to underground hardcore and metal for years. actually, you'd be surprised how much of it is really good christian music. I'm sure TipYourBartender can probably name a few. I guess what I'm really getting at is that though there are so many "hyper-fundamentalist" christians out there giving my God a really bad name, not all of us are that bad to talk to. That's my two cents anyway. I guess I'll just crawl back into my little space now.

[CCSDUDE]

That's some funny shit....

Anyone ever come across that "Jesus Power Hour" mp3? It's an hours worth of crap by some hickish minister blasting Harry Potter for being the Devil's tool....

They had stupid ass "Ghost/Witch researchers coming in and 'giving the dope info' about it. Funny, huh?

Psychotic Christians crack me up....they seriously need to go jerk off or something...live alittle ya up tight jackasses! lol

[chipperrox]

Originally posted by CCSDUDE
That's some funny shit....

Anyone ever come across that "Jesus Power Hour" mp3? It's an hours worth of crap by some hickish minister blasting Harry Potter for being the Devil's tool....

They had stupid ass "Ghost/Witch researchers coming in and 'giving the dope info' about it. Funny, huh?

Psychotic Christians crack me up....they seriously need to go jerk off or something...live alittle ya up tight jackasses! lol


u think thats bad, i once found this site proclaiming SUGAR as the devil
yes sugar
u kno, that stuff in candy and kiddie snacks
is the devil

[Krell]

In the late 70, early 80's, I knew almost all of these people. I promoted them, helped set up their concerts, spoke with them, and even wrote them on matters that concerned me. So groups that hit the charts like Petra, Larry Norman, Daniel Amos, Carmen, Steve Green, Keith Green (before he died obviously) Kathy Tracolli, 2nd Chapter of Acts, John Michael Talbot, etc, were people that I was familiar with on a face to face level.

I took a group of college people in to inner city Chicago, to do some work in the Uptown district. I did that 4 years in a row. In that time, I had the opportunity to stop by the JPUSA hotel where they lived. They were a different bunch of folks for sure! Their communal life style and ministry concepts were alien to what most of the young men an women were used to.

A pastor there in Uptown, last name Queen, taught me something, referring to the 150,000 desperately poor people in that area, 7 major nationalities, 21 different dialects. He said, you must not view these people as "good" or "bad" they are different. I use that same view interdenominationally.

I consider my self a "Christian" before I consider myself "baptist". Whatever comes out of a man's heart is what makes him evil.

Exactly, the way it should be. Unfortunately, there are extremists that give sincere people a bad name. I got to the point where I rarely used the "B" word, as it undermined what I wanted to accomplish in the community. Of course thats ancient history now. These days "B" comes closer to "bastard" than anything.

I havent been to a Cornerstone in many years. I did make it to Creation, The Gorge Amphitheatre, in Wa 2 years ago. I liked Skillet, a few others.



emohXc great first post, welcome to Zero Paid! People like the ones that CCSDUDE refer to, the "theres a demon in your pants" nutcases, are the only ones that ever get mentioned. So dont crawl back in to your hole, participate. I seriously doubt that CCSDUDE, or most anyone here, know a real christian, that is sound in their belief. And maybe, just maybe, one day they will say, I bash religion, and all the hocus pocus, but I know this one guys that's real solid . . . .

[Nothingface5384]

lmao what a jack ass....music doesnt help engage into anything..its the damn persons actions..their weak minds giving into temptation...i listen to metal..matter affact its good for me...full of energy,its my stress and pain reliever...
and rock/metal doesnt have as bad themes as say rap..uneducated ppl just lable it as fuck your mother kill your sister..and all that stupid shit..some of my metal bands even talk about religion and what not...these kind of ppl need to wake up...and get some commen knowlege heh.

[[NK]Mutant]

Originally posted by dogfood91
Christians are saying music provokes violence? hahahahaha Religion promotes more violence in this world than ANYTHING else. Wars, the crusades, salem withcraft trials etc... I'm atheist and though i believe in the morals which religions "try" to teach they a a very poor way to teach them, especially when those trying to teach the morals rape little boys. Fuck that bullshit article.

Damn, you said what I was going to say. Oh well.

[CCSDUDE]

Originally posted by Krell
In the late 70, early 80's, I knew almost all of these people. I promoted them, helped set up their concerts, spoke with them, and even wrote them on matters that concerned me. So groups that hit the charts like Petra, Larry Norman, Daniel Amos, Carmen, Steve Green, Keith Green (before he died obviously) Kathy Tracolli, 2nd Chapter of Acts, John Michael Talbot, etc, were people that I was familiar with on a face to face level.

I took a group of college people in to inner city Chicago, to do some work in the Uptown district. I did that 4 years in a row. In that time, I had the opportunity to stop by the JPUSA hotel where they lived. They were a different bunch of folks for sure! Their communal life style and ministry concepts were alien to what most of the young men an women were used to.

A pastor there in Uptown, last name Queen, taught me something, referring to the 150,000 desperately poor people in that area, 7 major nationalities, 21 different dialects. He said, you must not view these people as "good" or "bad" they are different. I use that same view interdenominationally.

I consider my self a "Christian" before I consider myself "baptist". Whatever comes out of a man's heart is what makes him evil.

Exactly, the way it should be. Unfortunately, there are extremists that give sincere people a bad name. I got to the point where I rarely used the "B" word, as it undermined what I wanted to accomplish in the community. Of course thats ancient history now. These days "B" comes closer to "bastard" than anything.

I havent been to a Cornerstone in many years. I did make it to Creation, The Gorge Amphitheatre, in Wa 2 years ago. I liked Skillet, a few others.



emohXc great first post, welcome to Zero Paid! People like the ones that CCSDUDE refer to, the "theres a demon in your pants" nutcases, are the only ones that ever get mentioned. So dont crawl back in to your hole, participate. I seriously doubt that CCSDUDE, or most anyone here, know a real christian, that is sound in their belief. And maybe, just maybe, one day they will say, I bash religion, and all the hocus pocus, but I know this one guys that's real solid . . . .

Notice, I said "Psychotic Christians", they ain't all like that, but some branches of Christianity are fulla freaks.

Take the fuckers who go door to door....some of 'em are real pricks. I've had a few tell me I was going to hell for being a Devil worshipping cocksucker. So they ain't all "nice" people by any means. And no I didn't egg the pricks on, I simply said I was an Atheist, like I always do. I'm not, in fact, Atheist but you know how some of them can be.

Anyway, welcome to the zoo, AKA ZP.

Peace

[Nothingface5384]

some1 deleat this b/s ..just pisses me off that some ppl are some damn stupid..i'd rather here hype about a shitty p2p app thn this shit...i mean come on..cant beleive theres still ppl still thinking like its the old days..when rock was introduced...come on ppl expand your minds....

[Krell]

Feel free to delete your posts in this thread, and move on. Otherwise, stop your bitching. No one is going to delete or close a thread because you dont agree with it. Welcome to reality.

This is a discussion on the extremist view of the impact of death metal music by people described as "cultic".

it is also a counter balance conversation that not all metal bands promote evil, and not all christian bands, are infallible.

Obviously you cant follow this, so please, just butt out.

[emohXc]

gee Krell,
you really do know all the classics. Glen Kaiser(if I remember correctly) came to creation east like three years ago. That was something else. I guess I found it a little cheesy but I was a little immature back then. I didnt understand what kind of an impact those bands made on christian music as a whole. Stryper played a reunion show at Cornerstone two years ago. A friend of mine told me how awesome that was. I personally cant do the 80's metal thing but "rock the hell outta you" definately kicks. They took alot of guff from their own kind, and I respect them for that.

CCSDUDE,
I understand completely where you're coming from. I myself come from a church that believes pestering others at their doorsteps is the greatest thing you can do for them. a word to the wise... telling them you're an athiest will only fuel their fire.

I suppose I should say a bit more about myself,
...yeah, I'm 20 years old and I've been sharing for a really long time. I started with mp3wolf and then napster made it huge. I dont even share music anymore though. I moved on to scour, then kazaa but it really sucked back then, so I experienced imesh's really buggy stages. then I discovered the donkey and I've never turned away. I'm a huge emule fan. K++ helps if I need something really fast or a keygen or whatever. as I said before I love hardcore rock and metal. I also love good emotional progrock bands(hence the emohXc). if another music thread pops up I'll list my bands. I guess this means I'll take part in daily converstion here. heck I've watched it long enough.

[SexySpammer]

A little headbanging never hurt anyone.

I'll take my chances with the "evil persuasion" of metal any day over the fanatical fringes of almost all religions who pose a far greater danger to our society as a whole . . .

Just thought I'd add my vote here; you guys carry on now . . . you're doing a great job!

: )

[Krell]

Why thank you SexySpammer, thats the validation I have been waiting for ALLLL day. I have stood toe to toe, and office to office with many these nutcases. Several of the scandels that you have heard of, I was either in the circle of people, or knew someone directly involved very well.

I also want to point out, that although I do not think that metal, or music itself, perpetuates evil, I have seen real evil, and I know that it exists. I have seen some truely scary scary shit.

For many years fringe people, counter-culture, have been my friends. Most of my crowd would scare the pants off the niave self-righteous, insolated, finger-pointing holier than thou. I mean to tell you , that the pierced up, green haired, tatood biker type friends are the people I trust. You cant judge a book by it's cover.

[Aaron73153]

Ozzy=GOD!

Guess since i also love AC/DC i'm "On the highway to hell"

<--- Gotta love the pun, I amuse myself sometimes:fire

[Ken17625]

burn baby burn

[aqlo]

Here's a nice link to some more inflammatory propaganda
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0034/0034_01.asp

[TipYourBartender]

Hey Krell,

John Michael Talbot??

<shudders>

[Krell]

Way too mellow for me . . . but to say he is a decent person, is an underestimate!

You should read his biography.

I've never had aspiration of becoming a monk, so *shudders* I think that I understand your reservation.

[nasrules]

yes, some rock/metal is anti-religion. so?

and hiphop aint crap. you jus gotta listen to some quality. download "Nas - Thugz Mansion". thats some quality rap!

[emohXc]

I dont even listen to rap(though I've been told I should) but jurassic 5 is hot stuff, with a good message too.

[nasrules]

yeh jurassic 5 is good, 50 cent, nas, tupac, etc u get my point

[iq214]

Whos to say rock isnt the tool of the devil? Afterall, it is a media of moral decline. I have listened to a lot of rock in my time and I have thoughts and desires for murder, rape, mutilation, genocide and random violence on a daily basis. And I dont even like metal!

[TipYourBartender]

Finding good rap is harder than hell. J5, the Roots, Nas, Mos def are really good. But Ja Rule is really bad.

[TC75580]

I am a Christian, but I do not agree with much that has been said. One person does not speak for all... it is not THE christian view that has been told, it is merely ONE christian view.

Rock music does have a history of containing many ideas that are anti-christian, but I can think of many bands from all throughout rock history that did not contain those secular beliefs ANY MORE SO than country, blues, jazz, etc. Those genres aren't perfect, either... they might not praise violence, but many times celebrate premarital sex. Pinpointing rock music as the problem isn't going to do it.

There will always be music that goes against certain beliefs, but that is the world we live in!! Let the goths listen to their music; it is their choice to make.

I do want to say this. Contemporary christian music, has a history of immitating secular music. So if you have little to offer, or nothing more than spandex for a paycheck, then get out. I have a problem with these so called "christian raves" . . . Now I have been to raves, and I cant connect the dots.
I have a problem with it as well. The only thing christian contemporary (CC) music has to offer is its christian lyrics, but it ALWAYS comes off in the wrong light. Since it is based off of secular adult contemporary music, the music can't come across the way it should. The only christian group I ever really liked was DC Talk, because their music was just much better than the others.

Nearly all christian songs played on the radio start with a verse of lyrics, maybe a bridge, followed by a chorus, and repeating the cycle until the end of the song. Of course, this is how many songs are in ALL of music, but with CC all the songs all SOUND the same. There is no variety in dynamics, tempo, or anything.

The paradox about christian music is that the emphasis shouldn't be entirely on the music, because it takes the focus off of the purpose, which is to express the christian life (and if it's worship music, to worship God). However, take the focus entirely OFF the music, and it ends up sounding like crap.

As for christian raves, I have nothing to say. I am not a sociable person so I have never been to one, and therefore I have no comment.

[emohXc]

hmmm...
I actually refused to listen to any type of music for a while because for years I was told that the music that I liked to hear was wrong. I hated christian music with a passion. To me, DC Talk was manufactured and unoriginal and the same went for alot of other bands like the Newsboys and(who else)....gee I hated pop to begin with anyway. Christians are beginning to make it absolutely huge by just being original. Many people hear POD and they're like "oh they sound like a Korn/Limp knockoff, but just with a good message." I'll be the first to say that Payable on Death has been around and had a huge following in christian circles since 1992. They even maintained the same sound from when they first started. knockoff? I think not. nobody in the secular "realm" really wanted any thing to do with their kind of music because rapcore just wasnt publicly embraced until about 1999. it's just a shame what's going on with their guitarist now though. that kinda stuff makes me feel bad.
I really think that there are enough original christian musicians out there to actually have at least one on the top of the charts at all times. personally, I think POD wont be big anymore. However I was flipping through the channels the other day and I was floored when I saw one of my all time favorites on the television screen. Since 1996 Blindside has been tearing it up in sweden and making occasional short tours in the US(mostly just playing at cornerstone). i bought their newest album the first day it came out and noticed that they actually went just a tad softer. but I guess that's just what happens when rock bands get on big labels(makes it more marketable, I guess). I dont think mainstream america is quite ready for what they used to do anyway. I like the direction they are moving. it's good stuff, and the lyrics to the song they're trying to break with, "Pitiful," are blatant and expressive at the same time. easy to understand, and very thought provoking. I guess I always liked their lyrical style though.
what I'm getting at is that there really are tons of good original christian bands out there who(in my opinion) are way better than anything else I've ever heard in some genres. they just arent big because christian music labels are so small that they are overlooked.... there's more to this spiel, I just kinda lost focus...

[proffasee]

first of all, i'm a christian (non-denominational), and i think nothing of the sort! i listen to all types of music, from classical to heavy metal, christian to gospel. you see, this is where so called 'christians' dig themselves a hole. they think of themselves as better than everyone else, and if everyone else isn't like them, those people are wrong and goin to hell. that's not the way a true 'christian' is supposed to think. no one is perfect, and that's that. and just because someone listens to gothic,heavy metal, rock type music doesn't mean anything! it's just a taste. everyone has their own taste in what they like. i mean, for cryin out loud, i listen to type o negative, tool, godsmack, disturbed and thats just the beginning. and as i said above, i'm a christian. i'm actually very involved in my church, and i truly love the Lord with all my heart. see, God didn't send his only son, Jesus, to die on the cross for nothing! Jesus died to set us free, and give us life! Jesus didn't come to the world to condem us...especially for the music we like and listen to. i could go on forever on this subject...lol, but i'll close right there. :)

[trinio]

A vast majority of rock music isn't the work of the devil. It isn't the work of anything except the minds & talent of the artists. Music does not *force* anyone to commit suicide, or otherwise go off the deep end. It does, however, manipulate brain waves, to some extent, and thus, a person's mood. But the effect music has on someone depends largely on that person's normal baseline mental state. Music is not going to corrupt a totally mentally healthy individual. But it might be enough to help a depressed person wallow in their misery, for example. Still, the music itself should not be to blame. Noticed my example involved a *depressed* person. This person would be depressed whether or not they listened to music.

Music is a form of expression, and without freedom of expression you cannot have a free society. You cannot actually ban any type of music without setting a dangerous precedent that threatens the fabric of individual freedoms. However, there IS a "part B" to the deal: with rights come responsibilities. Your right to listen to music only goes so far as it does not infringe on someone else's right to peace & quiet or to listen to their own music. Meaning, you cannot blast your music so that the neighbors can hear it through THEIR walls. That isn't fair, either. If you want to listen to 2 Live Crew or some Satanic rock, be my guest, that's totally your freedom and your right and no matter how bad the content is, it's your unabridged right to listen to it. That's the beauty of freedom. I think freedom (& self-responsibility) should be perpetuated.

BTW: I break all the rules: I'm a very spiritual Christian (for those of you who think we're lame), an American (for those of you who think we're all stupid), and I'm conservative (for those of you who otherwise think conservatives suck)

[emohXc]

"Noticed my example involved a *depressed* person. This person would be depressed whether or not they listened to music."

you better believe I was depressed before I started listening to music. hardcore saved my life...seriously. I do like some secular music though. It's just when I hear secular bands I usually find(in my opinion) a better christian one(or bands with christians in them). I remember the time one of my friends was like "dude, check these guys out...AFI," and I was like 'hmmm...no" and they were like "what? you dont like this?," and I said "check these guys out, and you'll see why." Now they are completely stuck on Stretch Arm Strong(christian lead singer, check 'em out). I guess it's my thing...I love enjoying good christian artists, and I like to spread the word about them. some of these bands deserve respect. tons of secular bands deserve a good listen also... Coheed and Cambria for one(I cant wait till they come back over here). good shows, good times

[celticone]

It amazes me that people actually believe in god, jesus and the devil

[emohXc]

well, Jesus was every bit as real as George Washington. There's physical evidence that he lived. The real issue with the whole Jesus situation is whether or not you believe he is who he said he was. As for god and the devil, those are just faith issues. You either believe it or you dont.

[celticone]

Re. Jesus - I’d be surprised if there was physical proof that he did the things that he was actually supposed to have done. He might’ve existed but.

I never usually post, and it’s turning too religious, apologies again, I’ll go back to downloading my porn.

[Ken17625]

Here comes the religious debate.

These threads, (besides spam) are the only threads to rival the war threads in length and amount of flames.

Enjoy!

[emohXc]

woops,
guess I got a little carried away.:mellow I'll move on to a different topic

[Krell]

NO, there will be no debate.

I held off of this post, waiting to see. Now that Ken17625 seems to think its a good idea, I may as well say it.

Speak about your personal experiences, etc, but if you start the dogma and contradiction, the thread will be closed.

[aqlo]

Debating religion is retarded, if you don't have anything to share shut up. Claiming there is "physical evidence" of something to do with faith is just letting yourself in for a whole world of hurt that isn't even in the same universe as helping, couldn't possibly help even if you were educated enough on the subject to talk and actually right, which you are not.

I'm amazed God and the Devil still believe in yall.

PS: God may talk to me all day long but it's always about what I should already be doing, never about what anyone else does.

[emohXc]

my intelligence is insulted and cant even defend it due to the nature of the arguement brought against me. this is quite a rut.

this thread is about music anyway... let's get back on the subject. I like this discussion.

[aqlo]

No offense Emo, if you really do want to debate that topic (useless as it is) your best bet for a fair forum is the CrossTalk email list. If you want to debate me specifically let me know and I will arrange something at DoD in IRC or else at the message board on Church of the Antichrist.

Krell did you actually know Wilkerson? I've never met him but he seemed to have an uncanny charismatic ability directed toward inspiring other people. As long as he spoke in generalities about people's sins it was uncanny to them like he was seeing into their heart, it made them ashamed enough of all the heroin or assault-and-battery or whatever it was in there to do something about it. But whenever he got out of his field talking about other people's subjects he wasn't any smarter than Sigmund Freud or Charlie Sheen, just some guy with an opinion. At least he was reasonably humble about it, he didn't try to pretend that he hadn't changed his mind about things or ever try to make out like he wasn't a great sinner like say the Bakkers.

[emohXc]

The Bakkers... that's a story in itself. you know their son, Jay, owns a music venue in Georgia and metal bands play there all the time. It's called Revolution and it's designed to keep kids off the street. He also wrote a book called "Son of a Preacher Man." It tells the whole situation with his parents from his point of view. I heard it was really good, just hard to find.

[Krell]

mmmmm no, I didnt know Wilkerson, I was just angry with him, enough to call him and write him. I didnt really have to, as my friend left his office after confronting him, Glen Kaiser had flown down from Chicago and was on his way in. I would LOVE to have heard that conversation.

emohXc, when aglo said it was retarded, you did not come to mind, and I honestly do not think it was directed at you.

Regarding Bakker, Swaggert, etc, . . . well lets just say . . . I knew who they were bonking, before it the the press. One woman, reformed and relocated, (and nice looking) attended a church I participated at. I hated to see her drug across the news a few years later to testify in New Orleans.


Now back to the thread, not only is there WAY to much bickering here over war etc, we just dont need another heated religion debate.

Frankly, as far as the topic, I think its been pretty well covered. So bicker, and I close. sorry.


.

[aqlo]

Yeah emohxc, I had heard the Bakkers had gotten humble again in their misfortunes. I was always mad at Jim for not just jumping up and yelling darn it I'm a great terrible sinner! Haven't I been confessing that to you for years just like you have to me? But instead he had to make like he was Gary Hart or somebody.

Kind of off the topic of the music though, before this thing gets closed does anybody remember who sang the heinous 80's rock remake of the hymn that goes

On the first day of the week
Mary came the Lord to seek

I think the chorus was "He's alive!" or something Paul Bearer like that, I really miss this song.

PS I'm listening to "Angel Roll Da Stone Away" right now, thanks for the general idea

[emohXc]

sounds like something that probably came off of Jesus Christ Superstar... I could be wrong though

[aqlo]

No I have Superstar and Godspell and about a jillion other similar things, these guys were more like the people Krell and the others have been mentioning but it doesn't seem to have been any of them. I am listening to Kansas now, those poor guys get attacked from either side.

[Shadow, Thief of the Sun]

Actually, i think that this article is a good source for analysis. On another board someone asked me not to mix extreme form of Baptism and Christianity in general . I do not believe in religion, but i respect an opinion of both sides in this thread (both religious and non-religious). Anyway, i don't want to say that all Christians are againt rock music and in fact i like some bands with religious messages - like Raison D'etre or Caul, for example.

If anyone is offended by this thread - my apologies.

[Krell]

I never thought that you posted this thread just to stir controversy. The article reflects a fringe opinion by a ultra conservative group, and is a matter of historicle record. I doubt that anyone is offended by this thread, but will be offended by the use of personal attacks.

aglo, I noticed that you used Kansas as an example. I recall when Kerry Livgren decided to become a christian. He was spoken to about it by Jeff Pollard from the Louisiana's LeRoux.

Kerry Livgren had been searching, as indicated by his 1980 album, Seeds of Change. You may also recall the song " Dust in the Wind" by Kansas. It wasnt until Kansas and LL toured together that Pollard had the chance to share his beliefs with Livgren.

Ironically, Seeds of Change heralded Pollard on vocals, Barriemore Barlow of Jethro Tull as drummer, David Pack of Ambrosia and . . Ronnie James Dio, the one that sang with Black Sabbath on lead vocals! . . . can you say "The Mask of the Great Deceiver " ? Still astounded, did I mention Mylon LeFevre yet?

Livgren left Kansas, and formed his own venture, AD, which did not work well for either he or the remaining members of Kansas. In my opinion, The Art of State, was not near as good as Seeds of Change.

[aqlo]

*nods* that's exactly what I'm thinking of, Kerry gets condemned by the right for Seeking and condemned by the left for Finding. A person can't win! *stamps foot*

PS: here's another hot coal
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/rockm/satanic.htm

[Kevin06906]

death metal music, rock music, heavy metal music, is the best damn music around...better than rap,reggae, and other crap. I'm roman catholic and since i have common sense, if i hear a death metal song saying that you should drugs etc. I have the common sense to say...uhhh no.

Just because Christians are against it, doesn't mean it should be banned.

But yeah the part about marilyn manson ripping apart the bible and crap, it bothers me, but then i think about how hes an ass and what he did to himself. (Fans of marilyn manson know what im talking about) But his music sucks anyhow.

[nasrules]

Originally posted by Kevin06906
But yeah the part about marilyn manson ripping apart the bible and crap, it bothers me, but then i think about how hes an ass and what he did to himself. (Fans of marilyn manson know what im talking about) But his music sucks anyhow.

First off, you're kinda late man!

Second, I can understand why it bothers you. I am completely sympathetic, I'm not at all religious but if I was I wouldn't exactly feel happy about it.

Then, we get onto the "He's an ass, look what he did to himself" bit. IMO, people should be able to do what they like to themselves, and if they want to express themselves in that way then so be it.

[XtraNtnse]

fundamentalists are in no state of mind to say anything even remotely intelligent.

[angiedecay]

Blame it on the evil Death Metal. Blah, you Christians think you are holier than thou. Christianity in the past has condoned nothing but violence. You shouldn't be putting your noses into a scene you absolutely know nothing about. No wonder it's one of the most hated religions on the face of the Earth. All you do is judge people if they don't meet your damn standards. Which makes you Christians absolute hyprocrites.

[angiedecay]

Lets continue our discussion about connection between music and crimes/insanity/murders etc. Here's what i have - an article "Death Metal Rock Music" from some Baptist group. I believe that its quite stupid, but i'm not sure that you will feel the same. Take a look at some excerpts:

"July 3, 1999 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) - Death Metal (also known as Black or Goth Metal, Shock Rock, or Grindcore) which arose in the 1990s in the United States and Europe, and has spread to Japan and other parts of the world, focuses on "a lyrical glorification of all things morbid and decaying" (Michael Moynihan, Lords of Chaos: The Blood Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground, 1998, p. 29). It is exercising a vast influence upon young people today, through recordings, concerts, and the Internet. "Between 1989-1993 Death Metal had become immensely popular worldwide, with bands drawing crowds in the thousands on an average night" (Ibid., p. 31). Black Metal "songs" exhibit a fascination with violence and death in general, murder, torture, rape, dismemberment, and mayhem. Death Metal groups have names like Venom, Extreme Noise Terror, Napalm Death, Unleashed, Darkthrone, Vicious Circle, Carcass, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Dismember, Deicide, Entombed, Cradle of Filth, Necropolis, and Obituary. Tampa, Florida, has been a center for some of the most popular Death Metal groups, including Morbid Angel and Deicide. Another center for Death Metal is Scandinavia, particularly Sweden and Norway. Some of the groups also praise Nazism and celebrate pagan gods. All exhibit an anti-Christian philosophy. Lead singer for the Swedish band Unleashed, Johnny Hedlund, makes "fervent declarations on the necessity of destroying the Christian religion" (Lords of Chaos, p. 30). Deicide has songs about the joy of killing Jesus. Lead singer Glen Benton, who branded an inverted cross on his forehead, named his son Daemon (”master of the supernatural”). Deicide’s bass player, Eric Hoffman, says, “Death metal is Satanic. We relay our music all into Satanism.” Varg Vikernes of the Death Metal group Burzum worships Odin, the Viking god of war and death, “the enemy of the Christian God.

Rock music has always been associated with an anti-Christian attitude, an immoral lifestyle, and violence. The first rock concert in 1952 (called a Moon Dog Ball), which was organized by disc jockey Alan Freed, resulted in a riot that sent mobs of young people rampaging through the streets of Cleveland, Ohio. Riots, beatings, and stabbings occurred at other Freed concerts. Following a riot in Boston in 1958, rock concerts were banned in several cities and Freed was kicked out of the concert business. Freed, called by Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock "the original Pied Piper of rock & roll," allegedly was the first to apply the term "rock and roll" to the new Blues-based music. He died in 1965 at age 42, penniless and drunken. Freed well epitomizes the wretched history of rock & roll.

The members of the German Death Metal group Absurd, composed of three high school students (Hendrik Mobus, Sebastian Schauscheill, and Andreas K.), murdered a 15-year-old classmate in April 1993. The group also called themselves "Children of Satan." Band leader Hendrik Mobus stated in an interview that we are at "the dawn of the New Aeon, when Christendom will perish and a neo-heathen state will arise" (Lords of Chaos, p. 260).

A member of the French Death Metal band Funeral, Anthony Mignoni (who uses the pseudonym "Hades"), says he created the group "to spread my ideas based on the destruction of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religions, and on the purity and supremacy of the true Aryan race" (Lords of Chaos, p. 275). He was convicted of desecrating a grave in 1996. He and three others exhumed the body of Yvonne Foin, who had been dead 20 years, and placed a cross in the cadaver’s heart area. Another youth police believe to be associated with Mignoni, David Oberdorf, murdered a priest by stabbing him 33 times with a dagger. He then carved on the body after the man was dead. He had confronted the priest with the words, "I am possessed by the demon—I must annihilate men of religion!" Investigators found a collection of death metal CDs in the teen’s room, and neighbors testified that they had heard "gnawing music, hard and stressful" blaring from his room.

In April 1999, Death Metal lovers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold walked onto the campus of their high school in Littleton, Colorado, and brutally murdered 12 fellow students and a teacher and wounded 20 others before taking their own lives. Some of those murdered were picked out because they were Christians. Before they shot 17-year-old Cassie Bernall to death, they asked, "Do you believe in God?" She replied, "Yes," and they shot her. They laughed as they destroyed and mangled their victims. Witnesses reported that "they were just hooting and hollering, having the time of their lives." Harris and Klebold loved the most wretched forms of rock music, particularly Marilyn Manson and German "techno" and Death Metal rock groups.

Marilyn Manson rips apart Bibles on stage and says: "Hopefully, I’ll be remembered as the one who brought an end to Christianity. … Each age must have at least one brave individual that tries to bring an end to Christianity. ... No one has managed to succeed yet; maybe through music we can finally do it" (Spin, August 1996, p. 34). We have news for Mr. Manson. True Christianity will never end. Of those who believe on Jesus Christ for salvation, Christ promised they "shall not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Everlasting is a very long time. John Lennon once said Christianity will vanish and shrink; I needn’t argue about that; I’m right and will be proved right" (Newsweek, March 21, 1966). Lennon is gone. Church of Satan founder Anton Lavey, who exercised much influence upon rock & roll, said that Christianity would be finished if a representative of the Church of Satan could have just one hour on national TV (Lords of Chaos, p. 236), but LaVey is gone. Jimi Hendrix considered the laws of God a form of bondage and saw himself as a liberator of young people from Bible-believing Christianity (‘Scuse Me While I Kiss the Sky, pp. 214,215), but he is gone. Famous Satanist Aleister Crowley, who had a large influence upon modern rock music and who has been glorified by rock stars such as Ozzy Osbourne, David Bowie, Graham Bond, the Beatles, and Mick Jagger, once offered himself to the Russian authorities to help destroy Christianity (Steve Turner, Hungry for Heaven, p. 92). Crowley is gone, though. After Marilyn Manson is gone, biblical Christianity will continue forever.

Why is it that it is rock music that is always connected with debachery and violence, and not classical music or "easy listening" or bluegrass or Christian hymns? The fact is that Rock corrupts. Rock injures. Rock maims. Rock kills."

You can read this article here > http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/deathmetal.htm

Notice the fact that this article is called "Death Metal Rock Music" and in the end author is mentioning track by Queen. Stupid approach towards music in general, i guess.

I bet you are the biggest hyprocrite of them all. Fuck off and die you miserable excuse of a human being.

[DrewWilson]

I bet you are the biggest hyprocrite of them all. Fuck off and die you miserable excuse of a human being.


It seriously took you 6 years to come up with that?

[evilmegaman]

I bet you are the biggest hyprocrite of them all. Fuck off and die you miserable excuse of a human being.



learn to read, and comprehend. you do realize that was a quote right? fucking troll

[angiedecay]

It seriously took you 6 years to come up with that?

No, but you must seriously have no life due to you having to check back on a post you did 6 years ago. I just happen to come across that pathetic article you wrote about Death Metal and I would have to say you are wrong by a long shot. Get a life and quit judging people because they may listen to a type of music you don't like.

[angiedecay]

I may be a troll but u ugly

[w31n3r]

hey, drew's one sexy icecube bub (i think...)

angiedecay, i don't know what crawled up your ass, but pull it out quick. not only did you bump a 6yr old thread, but you're acting like a troll.

ban worthy in 4 posts, these kids just keep getting better...

[DrewWilson]

No, but you must seriously have no life due to you having to check back on a post you did 6 years ago. I just happen to come across that pathetic article you wrote about Death Metal and I would have to say you are wrong by a long shot. Get a life and quit judging people because they may listen to a type of music you don't like.

I wrote that article? Cool. I must write articles in my sleep or something. I didn't know I was that good.:drunken_s

[wapazoid]

Repent, you heathens!! Let not the Iron Maiden corrupt your misguided souls.

... I'm off now to mentor our youth group at the all-girls camp. But first, to the liquor store for sacramental wine.

[mountain_rage]

The church is just jealous that new, more innovative entertainment has come along and destroyed their own congregations of death worshipers. If you don't innovate, move with the times you die. Now lets get Jesus back into the limelight and have him playing an axe while crucified to a cross.

[wapazoid]

Glorious VAG!!!!!

[w31n3r]

Penis!!!!!

yes, what can i do for you?

[mountain_rage]

Glorious VAG!!!!!

Man you need to get laid.

[w31n3r]

lmao watch out, he's minding school girls!!

[wapazoid]

Man you need to get laid.

Hey!! Nuzzle my hairy beanbag, you fu ... *cough*

Forgive MR, Lord, for he not knows what he says.

[Signa]

ban worthy in 4 posts, these kids just keep getting better...
+1 points for calling it!

Seriously, I didn't have to read any more than his first post.