Why was the Patriot post deleted?

[Feather]

Like the title says. It was a good thread that was off to a decent start even with the few bashers in there.

[The Hunter]

I am not sure why, or when it was deleted, but as threads like that often turn into a flame war, I can only guess that is what happened.

[notbob]

it's good that it was deleted

i don't know what he expected, as people from many countries come here--every time someone says "america is great" it implies everybody else's country isn't, which leads to hard feelings and arguments

[Feather]

it is a pretty sad day when you can not praise the men and women who protect your country without people from other countries thinking you are bashing them. notbob if i remember right you were one of the first to start flaming in that thread. some people need to grow up and quit thinking that anything that is not praising them is a flame against them.

[notbob]

the people in the military choose to be there

if they don't want to be, they don't have to be

it's a paid position, so why should they deserve any more respect than, say, an accountant? at least accountants aren't paid to kill people

[Wings_of_Azrael]

Originally posted by notbob
the people in the military choose to be there

if they don't want to be, they don't have to be

it's a paid position, so why should they deserve any more respect than, say, an accountant? at least accountants aren't paid to kill people

I'm not sure all of them want to be in Iraq right about now. And surely, they do have to stay, unless they want to be prosecuted for going AWOL. You don't just quit the military like any other job. Also, I know of a few who joined the military for the free training and education, not expecting there would be a war around the corner. Poor, foolish, unfortunate souls. Those draft guys aren't always the most honest people either.

A lot of troops probably got a candy coated picture of what being in the military is all about. They assume they'll be in there for a couple years, get some training and money, then go to college, get married, and live happily ever after. Ehh, wrong. In the course of a few months, they learn that they're gonna be shipped to Afghanistan, then Iraq.

Of course, there are some ass holes in the military who belong in Iraq. Like the ones who rape and sexually assault their female counterparts.

[nasrules]

Originally posted by notbob
the people in the military choose to be there

if they don't want to be, they don't have to be

it's a paid position, so why should they deserve any more respect than, say, an accountant? at least accountants aren't paid to kill people

exactly.

[notbob]

Originally posted by Wings_of_Azrael
I'm not sure all of them want to be in Iraq right about now. And surely, they do have to stay, unless they want to be prosecuted for going AWOL. You don't just quit the military like any other job. Also, I know of a few who joined the military for the free training and education, not expecting there would be a war around the corner. Poor, foolish, unfortunate souls. Those draft guys aren't always the most honest people either.



there hasn't been a draft since 1975 in the US

as for the "rosy picture" bit and the people who wanted the "free" schooling, just remember this -- if you make a deal with the devil, there is always a chance he'll call your bet

if you want to go to school, take out the loans--you will be in debt, but at least you'll have a chance at using your education

[Wings_of_Azrael]

Originally posted by notbob
there hasn't been a draft since 1975 in the US

as for the "rosy picture" bit and the people who wanted the "free" schooling, just remember this -- if you make a deal with the devil, there is always a chance he'll call your bet

if you want to go to school, take out the loans--you will be in debt, but at least you'll have a chance at using your education

Agreed, this is why I stated such a decision would be foolish. Still, it's certain that many people do this. This is America after all.

[method77]

The Patriot post was not about who is right and who is wrong but if another country was attacking mine, I wouldn't like to see people ancourage their people to kill my people (confused?). Maybe some innocent Iraqis were reading! Imagine how they felt?
(some kids even said "kick their ass!". This is not a soccer or football game!)

[notbob]

here's an amusing but relevant fake news bit from TheOnion.com

Bush Orders Iraq To Disarm Before Start Of War
WASHINGTON, DC—Maintaining his hardline stance against Saddam Hussein, President Bush ordered Iraq to fully dismantle its military before the U.S. begins its invasion next week. "U.S. intelligence confirms that, even as we speak, Saddam is preparing tanks and guns and other weapons of deadly force for use in our upcoming war against him," Bush said Sunday during his weekly radio address. "This madman has every intention of firing back at our troops when we attack his country." Bush warned the Iraqi dictator to "lay down [his] weapons and enter battle unarmed, or suffer the consequences."

[nukehella]

NotBob-At least stick with your own material if you are going to pursue this.
That's all I will have to say on the matter.

[maartendc]

HEY!

Ever heard of freedom of speech? Or doesn't that exist in 'the land of the free'?

I'm pissed of and outta here.....

[Winphuk]

The same Government who is trying to shut out our Internet freedom is the same one who is sending 18 year old kids into the Middle East to get shot.

[Winphuk]

My Summation of the War is this:

Right Idea

Wrong Time

and definetley WRONG MOTIVE!

[Winphuk]

This is the Government:

Hi. Your 18 years old. We won't let you drink beer, or smoke a joint, but here's an automatic rifle. There, go step on that landmine and blow yourself up.

[aqlo]

Notbob that's a great newsbrief. I also liked the bit in the War thread about how China needs to liberate US from her unelected dictatorship government. This is what humor is all about, you laugh so you don't have to cry.

The patriot thread was apparently removed by its creator because it wouldn't serve anymore to cheer up any soldiers that might be copping a listen there at the front. It was being used specifically to insult them, and this is sad. Most of them just wanted to go to school, it isn't that they were brutal or ignorant, just poor and not unpatriotic. Now they are going to get hurt and die just so that we can keep on saying whatever we want.

THANKS FOR YOUR ARMS AND LEGS AND BALLS AND LIVES GUYS WE APPRECIATE IT

[don webb]

THANKS FOR YOUR ARMS AND LEGS AND BALLS AND LIVES GUYS WE APPRECIATE IT.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I second that motion.:bling

[grab_grab_the_haddock]

they just closed MY thread. seems like some irate mod was missing a sense of humor.

[Feather]

So in your eyes there should be no military to protect your country. What then, who would stop the people who dont care if you have a military and dont care about your personal rights. IE terrorists that kill for the sake of thier god or what ever thier sick demented mind rationalises.

That is the same rational of make guns illegal, if thier are no guns on the streets there will be no more problems. If you make guns illegal then the only people who will have guns are outlaws. But oh the police will protect you. Not enough police to go around. One cop per 5000 civilians. The outlaws love those type of numbers. Oh but wait we dont need cops to protect the city just like we dont need military to protect our country.
If you cant tell i am being sarcastic.

So you want to be a passifist (spelling) then run up to the next terrorist you see and give him a great big hug and tell him love is all we need while he slits you throat. I would also like you to go to your nearest military base and tell them that you think they join only because they are poor and ignorant and just want an education.

I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.

[SexySpammer]

Originally posted by Feather
So in your eyes there should be no military to protect your country. What then, who would stop the people who dont care if you have a military and dont care about your personal rights. IE terrorists that kill for the sake of thier god or what ever thier sick demented mind rationalises.

That is the same rational of make guns illegal, if thier are no guns on the streets there will be no more problems. If you make guns illegal then the only people who will have guns are outlaws. But oh the police will protect you. Not enough police to go around. One cop per 5000 civilians. The outlaws love those type of numbers. Oh but wait we dont need cops to protect the city just like we dont need military to protect our country.
If you cant tell i am being sarcastic.

So you want to be a passifist (spelling) then run up to the next terrorist you see and give him a great big hug and tell him love is all we need while he slits you throat. I would also like you to go to your nearest military base and tell them that you think they join only because they are poor and ignorant and just want an education.

I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.

Well said, Feather!

[Feather]

Thank you Sexy Spammer. I am glad there is still a few people that belive that something is still worth fighting for.

[kuajmc]

Originally posted by Feather
So in your eyes there should be no military to protect your country. What then, who would stop the people who dont care if you have a military and dont care about your personal rights. IE terrorists that kill for the sake of thier god or what ever thier sick demented mind rationalises.

That is the same rational of make guns illegal, if thier are no guns on the streets there will be no more problems. If you make guns illegal then the only people who will have guns are outlaws. But oh the police will protect you. Not enough police to go around. One cop per 5000 civilians. The outlaws love those type of numbers. Oh but wait we dont need cops to protect the city just like we dont need military to protect our country.
If you cant tell i am being sarcastic.

So you want to be a passifist (spelling) then run up to the next terrorist you see and give him a great big hug and tell him love is all we need while he slits you throat. I would also like you to go to your nearest military base and tell them that you think they join only because they are poor and ignorant and just want an education.

I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.

hmm let me get this straight, you are sitting in front of a computer, talking about you'll be happy to see your sons, who are now 5 and 6, to go to a war in the future. WHY DON"T YOU, yourself GO AND FIGHT IN THE WAR NOW, rather that sitting on zeropaid.com posting about it?

[notbob]

Originally posted by Feather
So in your eyes there should be no military to protect your country. What then, who would stop the people who dont care if you have a military and dont care about your personal rights. IE terrorists that kill for the sake of thier god or what ever thier sick demented mind rationalises.

we have the biggest military in the world and terrorists still did plenty of damage

That is the same rational of make guns illegal, if thier are no guns on the streets there will be no more problems. If you make guns illegal then the only people who will have guns are outlaws. But oh the police will protect you. Not enough police to go around. One cop per 5000 civilians. The outlaws love those type of numbers. Oh but wait we dont need cops to protect the city just like we dont need military to protect our country.
If you cant tell i am being sarcastic.

you want 1 to 1 cop ratio or what? if you believe in america, then freedom should be a factor--do you want to live in a police state? that's what the bush/ashcroft administration wants

So you want to be a passifist (spelling) then run up to the next terrorist you see and give him a great big hug and tell him love is all we need while he slits you throat. I would also like you to go to your nearest military base and tell them that you think they join only because they are poor and ignorant and just want an education.

you can't tell a terrorist by looking at them--remember timothy mcveigh? just your average white guy--terrorists don't have to be arabs or even men--anybody can strap a bomb to themselves

I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.

go ahead and let your sons die to put gas in some rich bastards SUV, or to keep some corporation profitable

war isn't about honor, it's about money and power, and the ones with money and power aren't the ones fighting (or their kids)

[Krell]

I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.



What he said was "would be proud", he didnt say "happy", theres a difference. The analogy, obviously over your head, compares the honor of risking ones life to fight for what they believe in, opposed to being pacifistic helpless victems.

There's no hipocracy in what he stated.

If theres any hipocracy here, its the fact that you play armchair quarterback judge and point the finger at him !

One of the primary reason we can never have a discussion of politics and religion, is because people like you flood it with your 1/2 sarcastic posts.

Btw . . . how long DID it take you to think up that jewel? You didnt have help did you? NO fair !

[SexySpammer]

Originally posted by Feather
Thank you Sexy Spammer. I am glad there is still a few people that belive that something is still worth fighting for.

Take heart, friend . . .

I'd be willing to say that more than just a few people still understand that there are times when, ultimately, war becomes a necessary evil . . .a last resort . . . when all other options have failed.

If we allow ourselves to sit back and do nothing, we are just as guilty as those who promote terrorism and other evils against humanity.

You are not wrong in your beliefs.

[collideous]

Originally posted by Feather
So in your eyes there should be no military to protect your country. What then, who would stop the people who dont care if you have a military and dont care about your personal rights. IE terrorists that kill for the sake of thier god or what ever thier sick demented mind rationalises.

That is the same rational of make guns illegal, if thier are no guns on the streets there will be no more problems. If you make guns illegal then the only people who will have guns are outlaws. But oh the police will protect you. Not enough police to go around. One cop per 5000 civilians. The outlaws love those type of numbers. Oh but wait we dont need cops to protect the city just like we dont need military to protect our country.
If you cant tell i am being sarcastic.

So you want to be a passifist (spelling) then run up to the next terrorist you see and give him a great big hug and tell him love is all we need while he slits you throat. I would also like you to go to your nearest military base and tell them that you think they join only because they are poor and ignorant and just want an education.

I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.

In your way of thinking terrorists are a bunch of monsters killing everyone and destroying everything. Look at terrorist acts and their targets and you'll clearly see that it is not so. Basically, you can apply Newton's third law, and say that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. A study (http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb50.pdf) conducted by the Pentagon's Defense Science Board has shown that a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States clearly exists. Don't believe our "elected" officials and the media when they tell you we're being attacked because we are a free nation. Have you ever met someone who did not want to be free? History shows us those who seek to be free, not those who hate freedom, fight wars. Well, I'm not afraid to hug anyone who seeks to be free. No matter what race or religion, he/she is my brother or sister. Time to drop the guns, and drop the flags - there is only one humanity.

[notbob]

Originally posted by Krell
One of the primary reason we can never have a discussion of politics and religion, is because people like you flood it with your 1/2 sarcastic posts.

Btw . . . how long DID it take you to think up that jewel? You didnt have help did you? NO fair !

i have a son too, and there's no way in hell he will ever be in the military

a life given for a chunk of dirt is a life wasted

do you seriously think the US government gives a crap about the people of iraq? gerge w is just after "the guy who tried to kill [his] daddy."

as for how long it took me, it was about 6 minutes (mostly spent on the html tags)

here's a gem from Bill Hicks when asked if he was proud to be an american

"I'm an American only because my parents had sex here."

i'll add to that that i'd leave if i wasn't dirt poor--if anyone is willing to send me a ticket to somewhere in europe, i'll gladly take it

[Feather]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by notbob
we have the biggest military in the world and terrorists still did plenty of damage

-------yeah and what do you think they would do if we had no military.


you want 1 to 1 cop ratio or what? if you believe in america, then freedom should be a factor--do you want to live in a police state? that's what the bush/ashcroft administration wants

-------no i want the right to keep and bear arms like it says in the constitution. Just like it gives you the right to spew that anti american crap you spew.

you can't tell a terrorist by looking at them--remember timothy mcveigh? just your average white guy--terrorists don't have to be arabs or even men--anybody can strap a bomb to themselves

-------so then drag you but over to pakistan and go hug the taliban or osama himself

go ahead and let your sons die to put gas in some rich bastards SUV, or to keep some corporation profitable

------the only country this is really about oil is france. they dont want this war cause they will loose thier contract for all the oil the want with the iraqi government. and with russia it is all about money that the iraqi government owes them. they are afraid that they will not get thier money when thier is a leadership change.

war isn't about honor, it's about money and power, and the ones with money and power aren't the ones fighting (or their kids)]

------no honor is following a code of ethics of what ever group you are associated with [/QUOTE

kuajmc quote: hmm let me get this straight, you are sitting in front of a computer, talking about you'll be happy to see your sons, who are now 5 and 6, to go to a war in the future. WHY DON"T YOU, yourself GO AND FIGHT IN THE WAR NOW, rather that sitting on zeropaid.com posting about it?

first of all if they would let me in the military i would go but age and health does not allow.
second if you read my post and comprehended it you would know that my children are 12 and 13 and are 5 to 5 years away from age to go in the military
And i consider myself as serving my country when i was building missles and other defense electronic. for the government. Sadam has already tasted some of it from the gulf war.

Janet iam sorry but too many people have st back over the years and said oh it not worth it to explain it to them. and that is why we have folks like these now.


And sorry i am not good with the controls on this forum.

[SexySpammer]

Originally posted by Krell
I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.



What he said was "would be proud", he didnt say "happy", theres a difference. The analogy, obviously over your head, compares the honor of risking ones life to fight for what they believe in, opposed to being pacifistic helpless victems.

There's no hipocracy in what he stated.

If theres any hipocracy here, its the fact that you play armchair quarterback judge and point the finger at him !

One of the primary reason we can never have a discussion of politics and religion, is because people like you flood it with your 1/2 sarcastic posts.

Btw . . . how long DID it take you to think up that jewel? You didnt have help did you? NO fair !

BRAVO Krell . . . I couldn't have said it better myself.

Some people are so inexcusable! They know who they are. SHAME on them!!!

[Krell]

I couldnt have reiterated my point more clearly.


15 seconds, no tags

[Feather]

very well put Krell Thank you

very well put Sexy spammer Thank you also

[notbob]

...said by Feather

first of all if they would let me in the military i would go but age and health does not allow

that's the perfect reason you should fight--let the fat old guys crying for war do the fighting and give the young kids a shot at living a life

[grab_grab_the_haddock]

no surprise - i have to take notbobs side here

people are not being sent to die in Iraq for a principle. They are being sent to die for a rich mans stock price.

hey btw krell, just let me know when you want BR. i can ICQ it to you or whatever.

[Feather]

Out of that entire post that is the best you can come up with notbob. your slipping there. go crawl into your dark corner and sing love is all we need until the bomb hits.

[aqlo]

I do think all the politicians and corporate execs should have to be in the war, no doubt about it.

Did you know that almost all the Royal dukes fought in the Falklands? Flew airplanes, had dogfights, no joke.

[grab_grab_the_haddock]

Originally posted by aqlo


Did you know that almost all the Royal dukes fought in the Falklands? Flew airplanes, had dogfights, no joke.

err not quite...prince andrew was there, but he was on a ship far away from the conflict..even though he was a marine he never tasted battle.

Im not aware of any member of the royal family who was in the RAF.

[Krell]

Coolio!


As a rule, I never get involved in political discussion, between the exagerations, the over simplifications, and the non productive dogma, I see very little ever getting accomplished.

I'm as fucking quiet as they come, and if I thought I could get in and out with night goggles and a sniper rifle, I would just go, I wouldnt even join the armed forces. I'd crawl my ass right up along side the British, and when they asked who I was with, I would say "OH nobody, I just fucking hate Sadaam" " Have any gum?"

If there were any other realistic ways to displace him, I would be all for it, but embargos and harsh talk just doesnt seem to be cutting it.

[aqlo]

I'm probably speaking incorrectly, that happens to me sometimes.

17 of the long line of commoners who might someday inherit the throne of England were in service in the Royal navy at that time along with Andrew. Charles Windsor was (and is) a group captain in the RAF, he flies helicopters.

[UBER-RAT]

when all those american troops get gassed, I wonder if Reagan will be prosecuted for selling those weapons to Iraq in the first place?

[grab_grab_the_haddock]

Originally posted by aqlo
I'm probably speaking incorrectly, that happens to me sometimes.

17 of the long line of commoners who might someday inherit the throne of England were in service in the Royal navy at that time along with Andrew. Charles Windsor was (and is) a group captain in the RAF, he flies helicopters.

LOL...yes an aristocratic englishman, always one to overstate your own importance....

krell PM me next time you are online, or get my ftp details from gorphon.

you are always welcome to my files, no matter your political persuasion ;-)

[Winphuk]

I have no problem with saying that Sadaam is evil and he must die, but my problem is that our so called "President" is busy banning abortion and chasing after a five and dime dictator in this rinky dink country while people are losing jobs and livelyhoods here in America.Companies are going broke and folding everywhere.
His job approval rating is declining steadily, so I truly believe in my heart that he is stirring up a war to give himself enough juice for the next election.
He needs to put Iraq on the back burner for now and take care of business at home.

[ronniebravo]

After the next few weeks we won't be talkin' about Sadam or Iraq anymore. Thank God!

[aqlo]

LOL...yes an aristocratic englishman, always one to overstate your own importance....
No I'm not English, I got interested in the Falklands war thanks to Pink Floyd's album The Final Cut.

take all your overgrown infants away somewhere
and build them a home a little place of their own
the fletcher memorial
home for incurable tyrants and kings
and they can appear to themselves every day
on closed circuit t.v.
to make sure they're still real
it's the only connection they feel
'ladies and gentlemen, please welcome reagan and haig
mr. begin and friend mrs. thatcher and paisley
mr. brezhnev and party
the ghost of mccarthy
the memories of nixon
and now adding colour a group of anonymous latin
american meat packing glitterati'
did they expect us to treat them with any respect
they can polish their medals and sharpen their
smiles, and amuse themselves playing games for a while
boom boom, bang bang, lie down you're dead
safe in the permanent gaze of a cold glass eye
with their favourite toys
they'll be good girls and boys
in the fletcher memorial home for colonial
wasters of life and limb
is everyone in?
are you having a nice time?
now the final solution can be applied
*mushroom cloud*

[method77]

I just have one thing to say... people please post your ages in your profile so we all know if you mean the things that you say or you are just saying it cause you're too young and ignorant!

[Rahwgwar]

Originally posted by method77
I just have one thing to say... people please post your ages in your profile so we all know if you mean the things that you say or you are just saying it cause you're too young and ignorant!

And also add if you you stereotypical or not. I'm sorry, but sophistication is not based on age. AND you can be a genius about this war and will that make you ignorant? Try saying that to Mozart when he was 4 years old and busy creating the greatest musical pieces in history.

[notbob]

27

(i'd be a 15th round draft pick if there was a draft, but my insubordination would put me in the brig)

[method77]

don't compare some 13 year old talking about some oil war to Motsart!

[method77]

notbob ... you know I wasn't reffering to you ;-)

[Rahwgwar]

Originally posted by method77
don't compare some 13 year old talking about some oil war to Motsart!

Uhh, where do you see the comparison between Mozart and a 13 yo talking about oil? I was giving an anecdote to prove my point that age doesn't necessarily reflect how ignorant you are. And I know a lot of ignorant people who are well-established adults.

Moreover, you should be pleased that 13 yo's are trying to analyze the situation and give an opinion rather than doing a lot worse things. I think you can infer what I mean by that. Your comments only discourage them to at least try to learn the situation. Wisdom is not something you can just acquire. It takes years of experience being in different situations and environments. So at least commend them for trying while still correcting them. Fair enuff?

[method77]

It takes years of experience being in different situations and environments. that's exactly what I mean. Now you get it!


To cut a story long...
everybody agrees that the terrorists must be stopped (ok...killed) and nobody is against a war with them but don't try to convince me that this war is about terrorism and mass destruction weapons. 90% of the earth's population can't be wrong.

Let's talk about something else now...
so how is things? Do you like soccer? Who do you think is going to get the Champions League? I put my money on AC Milan! I've got an idea! I'll post a poll for us europeans to vote!

[fernandez]

Originally posted by Rahwgwar
Uhh, where do you see the comparison between Mozart and a 13 yo talking about oil? I was giving an anecdote to prove my point that age doesn't necessarily reflect how ignorant you are. And I know a lot of ignorant people who are well-established adults.

Well, it's quite difficult to link Mozart 13 year olds and oil. However, it's quite possible to link 18 year olds, oil, music, and Zeropaid. You end up with the RZOS that's an acronym for Rahwgwar Zeropaid Oil Symphony.

I'm sorry, just joking, take it easy.

[collideous]

Originally posted by ronniebravo
After the next few weeks we won't be talkin' about Sadam or Iraq anymore. Thank God!

I don't know if this ambassador is full of shit, but if what he says is true, then it won't be weeks, although I'm sure Americans will want to forget.

Quote: U.S. Ambassador to Turkey Robert Pearson told to deputies who rejected the motion that they would intervene Iraq no matter what happened and added ''we are going to Iraq to stay at least 25 years.'' (http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=9493) Pearson tried to convince the deputies who rejected the second motion and said in the dinner held for deputies ''Whether Saddam stays or not, we will intervene. We are coming to region to stay 20-25 years.'' Pearson met with the deputies who rejected the motion in Embassy residence in previous night. Pearson tried to convince the deputies, including Justice Minister Cemil Cicek, concerning the motion which was expected to be submitted again to Parliament and he gave information about Iraq policy of the United States. Emphasizing that no matter what the conditions were, his country was determined to launch operation against Iraq, Pearson said ''we will intervene whether Saddam stays or not and whether decision is taken in the United Nations or not.''

[Rahwgwar]

Originally posted by method77
that's exactly what I mean. Now you get it!


To cut a story long...
everybody agrees that the terrorists must be stopped (ok...killed) and nobody is against a war with them but don't try to convince me that this war is about terrorism and mass destruction weapons. 90% of the earth's population can't be wrong.

Let's talk about something else now...
so how is things? Do you like soccer? Who do you think is going to get the Champions League? I put my money on AC Milan! I've got an idea! I'll post a poll for us europeans to vote!

Lol. Yes, hopefully you understand my point as well. Being experienced doesn't automatically get you labeled as not ignorant just as being inexperienced doesn't necessarily make you ignorant. Then you have to take into account in what sense of the term ignorance are you talking. My father can probably be seen as ignorant to today's music and culture.

On a more lighthearted note, I don't like soccer. Not too adept with my feet, so it's mostly basketball and football for me. But more importantly, anybody gonna check out the Grand Prix?

Hehe, all in good fun. Sorry if I came off as an attacker in any of my posts. That was not my intent. I will simma down now.

@Fernandez: LMFAO, I liked that one.

[Ken17625]

The "war" is for the following reasons:

1.) Oil

2.) To improve the economy(again atributed to oil)

3.) To give Americans a sense of security that terrorism has been stamped out (saying it's the fault of Iraq alone). This is of course, also atributed to the economy (Americans will feel secure, and spend money--simple).

4.) Revenge of a sort.

5.) Because George W. Bush cannot deal with domestic problems. He must build a name for himself through foriegn policy and war.

6.) For reasons unknown. Besides, the biggest funder of terror is of course Saudi Arabia. Many of the terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. Will they be getting bombed tommorow? After all, "any nation that harbors or funds terror, supports it". Anyone see something wrong with this picture? There are probably business deals and underlying "things" that we do not and probably will never know.

Is this "war" all about money, economy? No, but for the most part. It's an economic war, with little humanitarian concerns on the side. But if you take the humanitarian route, many nations should be next on the "bomb your ass" list.


Everything these days is just much too hypocritical.

That was my two cents.

[ronniebravo]

Massive will solve all of our problems!

[gorphon]

quite frankly, some of the earlier posts in this thread made my stomach turn. it sounds like some of you (I also wont name names, you know who you are) would love to bring back loyalty oaths and 'all longhairs are pinkos!' and anyone who doesnt toe the party line is a terrorist or a f'in sympathizer! THAT is truly frightening to me.

This is supposed to be 'the land of the free.' and this was intended to mean freedom from persecution on the basis of many things- including thought. And now we have an administration (and a large part of the country apparently) who want to destroy ones GOD GIVEN RIGHT (no man, machine, or country ever gave it to me) to think for him or her self.

I would willingly, instantly, give up my life for what I believe in. For my home, my loved ones, and yes, my country. But if you think this "war" is about any of these things you are sadly mistaken. Iraq simply doesnt have the power to project any type of offensive against us UNLESS we attack them first. and in so doing, we will kill 10's or 100's of thousands of innocent people who have already been half starved due to UN embargos for the last decade or more.

So why not do as krell says and send a highly trained team of navy seals (or whomever, recon marines) in with nightvision scopes and sniper rifles to take saddam out and so minimize any deaths of innocents (I am not debating saddam's innocence, kill him. I will drink a beer in honor of the guy who does). its for a very simple reason. oil. and money. by spending $1billion of the taxpayers money EVERY DAY! GW will eventually have a pipeline into the persian gulf and all the oil it contains.

and just who do you think will get those energy contracts? All of GW's rich and powerful friends and campaign contributors- well, to be fair, it will only be those already involved in the oil industry.

or the defense contracts for the increased production of weaponry, supplies and vehicles this new war on terrorism will need? It will be all GW's and Co.'s friends in the defense industry. and, probably, dick cheney himself (cheney recieves over 1million USD a year in 'deferred income' from Haliburton- an interesting little ancillry benefit to being VP).

so perhaps I am rambling, but I say all this in the hopes that it helps some to take the blinders off and actrually look around, ask questions, and THINK before automatically towing the party line. because, strictly in my opinion, if you think this war is honestly about protecting the USA then you are not "preparing minnows for manhood" but instead ushering in a truly frightening, orwellian, new world.


anyone remember that quote from Scent of a Woman? "if you think you're prearing minnows for manhood here... You're building a rat ship! A sinking vessel for sea going snitches."

[ronniebravo]

But you see Sadam does train terrorists. Gives $ to suicide bombers. He is a threat.

[gorphon]

Originally posted by ronniebravo
But you see Sadam does train terrorists. Gives $ to suicide bombers. He is a threat.

then, as I said. kill him or otherwise oust him from power. train insurgents (as we did under Reagan in SOOOO many differnt countries) to stage a coup and so trade one power hungry despot for another, or *gasp* try some restrictions and embargoes that will actually effect Saddam and not the innocent people of his country.

or why not just rig the election? after all, they can do it here so it should be childs play in Iraq. and before anyone goes off on me for that (admittedly bitterly satirical) comment you may PM me for a supposedly "banned in the us" bbc documentary on just this subject. just leave me an icq # or aim nick.

[notbob]

here's a great article about Bush's "evidence" against saddam at http://salon.com/news/wire/2003/03/14/iraq_documents/index.html


in response to ronnieb--all governments fund terrorists--the US funds columbian and phillipene terrorists--one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter


Senator wants FBI to investigate fake Iraq documents

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Associated Press



March 14, 2003 | WASHINGTON -- The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee asked the FBI on Friday to investigate forged documents the Bush administration used as evidence against Saddam Hussein and his military ambitions in Iraq.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia said he was uneasy about a possible campaign to deceive the public about the status of Iraq's nuclear program.

An investigation should "at a minimum help to allay any concerns" that the government was involved in the creation of the documents to build support for administration policies, Rockefeller wrote in a letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller.

Secretary of State Colin Powell has denied the U.S. government had any hand in creating the false documents.

"It came from other sources," Powell told a House committee Thursday. "We were aware of this piece of evidence, and it was provided in good faith to the inspectors."

Rockefeller asked the FBI to determine the source of the documents, the sophistication of the forgeries, the motivation of those responsible, why intelligence agencies didn't recognize them as forgeries and whether they are part of a larger disinformation campaign.

The FBI did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Sarah Ross, a spokeswoman for Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Pat Roberts, said the committee will look into the forgery, but Roberts believes it is inappropriate for the FBI to investigate at this point.

The documents indicated that Iraq tried to by uranium from Niger, the West African nation that is the third-largest producer of mined uranium, Niger's largest export. The documents had been provided to U.S. officials by a third country, which has not been identified.

A U.S. government official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said it was unclear who first created the documents. The official said American suspicions remain about an Iraq-Niger uranium connection because of other, still-credible evidence that the official refused to specify.

In December, the State Department used the information to support its case that Iraq was lying about its weapons programs. But on March 7, Mohammed ElBaradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told the U.N. Security Council that the documents were forgeries.

Rockefeller said U.S. worries about Iraqi nuclear weapons were not based primarily on the documents, but "there is a possibility that the fabrication of these documents may be part of a larger deception campaign aimed at manipulating public opinion and foreign policy regarding Iraq."

At a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing Thursday, Powell said the State Department had not participated "any way in any falsification."

Rep. David Obey of Wisconsin, the committee's top Democrat, noted a Washington Post report that said a foreign government might have been conducting a deception campaign to win support for military action against Iraq. When Obey asked Powell if he could say which country that was, Powell replied, "I can't with confidence."

The Niger documents marked the second time that ElBaradei has challenged evidence presented by the United States meant to illustrate Iraq's nuclear weapons program. He also rejected the U.S. position that aluminum tubes imported by Iraq were intended to make nuclear bombs.

ElBaradei has said his inspectors have found no evidence that Saddam has revived its nuclear weapons program.

[ronniebravo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gorphon
[B]then, as I said. kill him or otherwise oust him from power.
That's whats gonna happen.

[Wolfie]

Originally posted by notbob
here's a great article about Bush's "evidence" against saddam at http://salon.com/news/wire/2003/03/14/iraq_documents/index.html


in response to ronnieb--all governments fund terrorists--the US funds columbian and phillipene terrorists--one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter


Senator wants FBI to investigate fake Iraq documents

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Associated Press



March 14, 2003 | WASHINGTON -- The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee asked the FBI on Friday to investigate forged documents the Bush administration used as evidence against Saddam Hussein and his military ambitions in Iraq.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia said he was uneasy about a possible campaign to deceive the public about the status of Iraq's nuclear program.

An investigation should "at a minimum help to allay any concerns" that the government was involved in the creation of the documents to build support for administration policies, Rockefeller wrote in a letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller.

Secretary of State Colin Powell has denied the U.S. government had any hand in creating the false documents.

"It came from other sources," Powell told a House committee Thursday. "We were aware of this piece of evidence, and it was provided in good faith to the inspectors."

Rockefeller asked the FBI to determine the source of the documents, the sophistication of the forgeries, the motivation of those responsible, why intelligence agencies didn't recognize them as forgeries and whether they are part of a larger disinformation campaign.

The FBI did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Sarah Ross, a spokeswoman for Senate Intelligence Committee chairman Pat Roberts, said the committee will look into the forgery, but Roberts believes it is inappropriate for the FBI to investigate at this point.

The documents indicated that Iraq tried to by uranium from Niger, the West African nation that is the third-largest producer of mined uranium, Niger's largest export. The documents had been provided to U.S. officials by a third country, which has not been identified.

A U.S. government official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said it was unclear who first created the documents. The official said American suspicions remain about an Iraq-Niger uranium connection because of other, still-credible evidence that the official refused to specify.

In December, the State Department used the information to support its case that Iraq was lying about its weapons programs. But on March 7, Mohammed ElBaradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told the U.N. Security Council that the documents were forgeries.

Rockefeller said U.S. worries about Iraqi nuclear weapons were not based primarily on the documents, but "there is a possibility that the fabrication of these documents may be part of a larger deception campaign aimed at manipulating public opinion and foreign policy regarding Iraq."

At a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing Thursday, Powell said the State Department had not participated "any way in any falsification."

Rep. David Obey of Wisconsin, the committee's top Democrat, noted a Washington Post report that said a foreign government might have been conducting a deception campaign to win support for military action against Iraq. When Obey asked Powell if he could say which country that was, Powell replied, "I can't with confidence."

The Niger documents marked the second time that ElBaradei has challenged evidence presented by the United States meant to illustrate Iraq's nuclear weapons program. He also rejected the U.S. position that aluminum tubes imported by Iraq were intended to make nuclear bombs.

ElBaradei has said his inspectors have found no evidence that Saddam has revived its nuclear weapons program.

Why am i not surprised? :mellow

[method77]

in response to ronnieb--all governments fund terrorists--the US funds columbian and phillipene terrorists--one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter nice one notbob.

[ronniebravo]

Don't worry the deal is gonna be done in two shakes of a lambs tail. He might even go into exile. Eveyone wants Sadam gone.

[kuajmc]

Originally posted by Krell
I have 2 sons and in 5 to 6 years both of them will be old enough to join the military. I would be proud of them for servving thier country. Do i want them to die hell no but i would rather see them die for something they believe in then cower in a hole singing love is all we need.



What he said was "would be proud", he didnt say "happy", theres a difference. The analogy, obviously over your head, compares the honor of risking ones life to fight for what they believe in, opposed to being pacifistic helpless victems.

There's no hipocracy in what he stated.

If theres any hipocracy here, its the fact that you play armchair quarterback judge and point the finger at him !

One of the primary reason we can never have a discussion of politics and religion, is because people like you flood it with your 1/2 sarcastic posts.

Btw . . . how long DID it take you to think up that jewel? You didnt have help did you? NO fair !

Alright I admit, that I chose the wrong word, and I'm not even going to edit my previous message.
Problem is it's all talk: "the government says I'm not in physical condition..." alright, go buy a ticket, they the norwegian gov, didn't want people to go to iraq now, some did... it's no problem to do it. USA is using a whole lot of cash... how 'bout using them to fight homelessness, og those forgotten vietnam veterans?

oohh... BTW have you all heard the "mirage" plan by the europeans? No? check that out...

And that droneplane (yeah the one with a lawn mower engine) that jane's dismissed as impossible to be travel the "500 kilometers" powell said. hell, it probably drop after 200m...

I'm not pro-saddam, hell, i want him stripped from power too, but I'm definitely NOT with bush...

[PatientSaint]

Gorphon as usual we share exact sentiments. I haven't seen you around as much lately but i totally see where u are coming from. Ken agreed you fully. Notbob if u get tickets to Europe can i come along?

I hate how conservative and ill mannered America has become as a whole now. Alongwith what gorphon said If u don't buy into the whole anti-terrorism card that Bush and the whole adminitration plays everytime something goes bad now. Or can try and use it as a trump card to sell this war to Americans and people that don't buy into it are way too liberal and tree hugging hippies. I am liberal but that doesn't mean we just wantto sit around sing love tunes and say love will save us when war comes. what we're really thinking is if we act now in the name of peace we won't have to deal with any WAR!

The fact is it's getting harder to say i am proud to be American everyday with Bush at the helm. Or when i see anti French sentiment for them not buying into the need to for war or the germans. Note: i love FRENCH FRIES screw that freedom fries crap that guy should be bitch smacked. the point is old Europe is saying they've gone this route before and the underlying causes to WW1 are eerie if u ask me.

To the soldiers. I am sorry you have to get caught up in this BS. I amsure you'rea bunch of guys and girls who wanted and education or a chance to start anew with your life and get some discipline and character. that's great and i hope both of them come true. But we both know You don't want to kill anyone.

as for feather or something sorry i forgot your name but i see the same arguement everyday so it's gets to be different faces same arguement. This war isn't about honor or protecting ourselves. It's exactlyabout what Ken and notbob are saying. You'd want your sons to die for a unjustified and dishonorable war?

My last thing is yes i love my country(the 21 drinking law is BS tho). We should be world leaders but by example and diplomacy. Not by military force. We should be helping other developing nations strengthing trade bonds with our FRIENDS in Europe developing new technologies to help everyone. casue in the end we look around in the universe searching for other signs of life. We must remeber we should be sharing the earth with our best friends. There's only one humanity and one Earth.

[Wolfie]

Originally posted by ronniebravo
Don't worry the deal is gonna be done in two shakes of a lambs tail. He might even go into exile. Eveyone wants Sadam gone.

The problem does not lie in killing or getting rid of saddam, but how many Iraqi civilians (what Rumsfeld refers to conviently as collateral damage) will get killed during the fighting till you can close enough to get rid of saddam. Heck if there was magic bullet that would go and find saddam and kill him, I am all for it.

BTW a cluster bomb (not gonna even get into MOAB) can kill lot of people in 1/16 of time one shake of lamb's tail. :-)

[CCSDUDE]

Heres one for ya....

Ever see one of those stupid buying drugs funds terrorist deals?

Hmm....let's analyze this for a second...

If cocaine is illegal...it makes it 'underground' and 'underground' stuff seems to be dealt by the seedier side of the human race....

So since drugs fund terrorism and you can surely say anyone who has a drug problem won't stop cuz little Timmy's gonna get blown to bits....what's the answer?

LEGALIZE THE FUCKING STUFF! Once it's legal and it's street value drops...no more income for the fuckwitt with the diaper on his head!

Which means they have less money to fund these radical SOB's. How about rethinking the whole gas deal too....fuck the oil....find a new source of power.

Once you remove all of their export economy they can kiss any power they have goodbye. What are they gonna do? Sell products to the masses they've already got working for dirt cheap? Haha...yes...that sounds fuckin' smashing! Pay this dude .5 cents a day and try and charge him 2 bucks for a gallon of gas. Ain't gonna happen....and all those dictator fuckers won't have shit coming in....

If the rest of the world could and would jump on the no gas bandwagon we could cut those fuckers outta the economy hopefully knocking them outta power by removing any sources of income till they over throw the bastards who do all this intolerable garbage. Be hilarious to see all those little Taliban fuckers over throwing the dictators they sought to protect and follow for a bag rice.

[method77]

Originally posted by ronniebravo
Don't worry the deal is gonna be done in two shakes of a lambs tail. He might even go into exile. Eveyone wants Sadam gone. ronnie
the sad thing is that a few hundred innocent people (add the dead from the embargo) are going down with him. I agree he must go but isn't there some special team of killers in the US army to do it? They always say they have the best army and the most intelegent weapons+FBI+CIA but they must blow up a whole country to get the job done.

[Ken17625]

I agree he must go but isn't there some special team of killers in the US army to do it?

Just to clarify things, killing Saddam Hussien will do nothing. It's the entire administration(regime?) that is the "problem".

Regardless, any military action these days is, like I said, hypocritical.

Double standards exist everywhere. Prime example, Saudi Arabia(like I said before).

[ronniebravo]

Originally posted by method77
ronnie
the sad thing is that a few hundred innocent people (add the dead from the embargo) are going down with him. I agree he must go but isn't there some special team of killers in the US army to do it? They always say they have the best army and the most intelegent weapons+FBI+CIA but they must blow up a whole country to get the job done.

Hey method I was thinking about the same type of situation. Why not slip in there kill him and get out. I guess that's easier said then done. But yea that would set in motion regime change without having to bomb. Hey I just put those MOAB pictures in to rile some people up. I'm not gung ho for war but If it does happen, I still feel he may seek exile, much of the responsibility lies at Sadam's feet.