Pledge of Allegiance ... under God

[wessman]

Can you all believe that 2 out of 3 judges ruled that the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional?

http://www.networkofminds.com/networkofminds/searchnews.cfm?q=pledge+allegiance

...all because of the two words "under God," added in the 1950s. The word God is on our currency, carved into federal and state buildings, spoken in court by witnesses giving oath, and most importantly, its in the damn Constitution itself!

I am not a member of organized religion and fall somewhere between being agnostic and athiest, but I would still proudly give my pledge of allegiance to our flag and this country.

The U.S. was colonized by those looking for religious freedom and this country was founded on God-like ideals.

It's because of judges like these and stupid parents that file lawsuits that our country has become so damn politically correct. Freedom of Speech has no meaning anymore because what I say may offend some pansy-ass jerk.

Whatever, the Supreme Court has already said that if this case makes it to their court, it's dead on arrival and the Pledge of Allegiance will remain legal and schools will be allowed to force their teachers to lead their students in pledge their faith in this country. God is not the issue, patriotism is.

:sw

[hguhgpiuhupp]

'God is not the issue, patriotism is.'

Great! Keep the patriotism and drop the God-thing; problem solved.

[hguhgpiuhupp]

And another thing: suppose the Pledge of Allegiance would be: 'Screw God, he's a total loser', I can believe not everybody would be very much amused and maybe.... go to court?

[Shannon57662]

80% of this country believes in GOD. If you do not believe in GOD omit that part from your pledge. I assume Mr. Newdow recited the pledge of allegiance when he attend school and is still a atheist, Looks like the brain washing did not work. You can not please everyone so lets go with the majority.

[PatientSaint]

here's a brilliant idea if it's such a big deal why not revert to pre 50's Pledge? i mean just take out the under God if people are gonna cry. heh i bet that girl didn't even care her Dad just wanted some publicity.

[mrgone4662]

"...with liberty and justice for all who can afford it."

[Ken17625]

Whats the pledge of alligance?

"I pledge alligance to Gebrowski's dead iguana because he haunts me so."

Be Afraid

[wessman]

See, I have to agree with Shannon57662's post.

And PatientSaint, I have no doubt you're right about this Dad coming up with this lawsuit all by himself. Some little girl wouldn't give a damn, even notice.

He obviously had some life altering experience with religion that makes him hate all those that follow a religion or believe in a god.

And here's another thing. I understand why parents who go to church force their children to follow the same religion, but this guy is atheist ... he is preventing his child from learning if she would like to be a part of an organized religion. I'm not saying she should at all, but I believe kids should have options.

Don't matter, today, the same appeals court put the verdict "on hold" until the next level of appeals court can rule on it.

:sw

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by wessman
He obviously had some life altering experience with religion that makes him hate all those that follow a religion or believe in a god.


That is fucking ridiculous. Just because the guy doesn't want his daughter forced to pledge allegiance "under god" doesn't mean he's some kind of hate monger with a chip on his shoulder. Oh right, he's atheist, it's okay to be prejudice against them.

Originally posted by wessman
And here's another thing. I understand why parents who go to church force their children to follow the same religion, but this guy is atheist ... he is preventing his child from learning if she would like to be a part of an organized religion. I'm not saying she should at all, but I believe kids should have options.


Aren't parents who force their children to follow the same religion preventing them from learning if they'd like to be atheist (or any other religion for that matter)?

BTW, Christianity isn't the only organized religion. So where is "under Allah" or "under Buddha" if organized religion is what this is supposed to educate people about?

[cinder829]

@mrgone

Not saying that the under God clause is right or wrong, but I'm pretty sure the real reason for including that clause in the pledge was because during the 50s, the country was in the middle of the Red Scare. Everyone was afraid of those Godless Communists (The U.S.S.R. enforced atheism as the state religion.). Also, WWII had just ended and people tend to look to religion for answers during times of war and crisis. Christianity was the largest religion at the time so it only made sense to add "under God" as opposed to "under Allah" or "under Buddah".

IMHO, you guys are right. I'm betting the guy just wanted the publicity. Honestly, who cares if children say "under God" in the pledge? I don't think you should force them to say it, but I also don't think you should stop them from saying it either.

[Foreverboard]

To each their own

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by cinder829
Christianity was the largest religion at the time so it only made sense to add "under God" as opposed to "under Allah" or "under Buddah".

I said that in regards to the idea that this guy was trying to keep his child in the dark about organized religion.

Democracy does not mean mob-rule. Just because the majority of people in America may be christian (or some form thereof) doesn't mean that the ideas, ideals, customs, and religions of the minority should be ignored or disrespected.

[Ken17625]

How about this

One nation, under "Iguana".

Nobody will complain then.......er....at least I won't.


Be Afraid.

[PatientSaint]

ok i'll say this just because you have to say "under God" doesn't enforce the fact you do or don't belive in one. It's not even saying you should or explore wherther there is or not. It's words. If you don't belive in it don't say it. should it be that complicated? The freedom of Speech goes both way to NOT say something or to SAY something. It is his DAUGHTER's decision. No one cares about that. I haven't heard any quote from her saying that she doesn't belive she did or didn't have to say the Pledge. I am all for minority rights and then being able to have their say. But in this case a minority might not have have the right to say whether they do or not belive in it. Because this *minority* is a child she has LESS rights than racial or religion minorities ot hell for any other for that matter.

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by PatientSaint
ok i'll say this just because you have to say "under God" doesn't enforce the fact you do or don't belive in one. It's not even saying you should or explore wherther there is or not. It's words. If you don't belive in it don't say it. should it be that complicated?

So let's try changing it to "under Satan" and see how quick the Christians change their tune.

[PatientSaint]

You can Skiew it however you want my friend, but in presonal retrospect. What is lost here is we are one nation not under religion but by one idea and one idea alone...freedom. I know everyone who sees this sites believes in that idea. That's why we are all here right? Instead of fighting amongst religions we should more concentrate on underrstanding one another and and combing our strengths to hold off those would want to take our freedoms away. For if we as educated and informed people are the last line of defense for those too ignorant to see freedoms taken away.

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by PatientSaint
Instead of fighting amongst religions we should more concentrate on underrstanding one another and and combing our strengths to hold off those would want to take our freedoms away. For if we as educated and informed people are the last line of defense for those too ignorant to see freedoms taken away.

Amen brother! Fortunately none of the above defaults us to being "one nation under god". Those ideals point us away from a government that tries to impose upon us, in any fashion, any custom or religion; for these are things for the individual to decide on. This is freedom.

[PatientSaint]

agreed. Let's jsut take out the "under God" and go onto slaying the other two headed dragon RIAA and MPAA :cross

[Shannon57662]

mrgone


The fact is like it or not religion is very much a part of this country and government. The people leading this country are religious, the people voting are religous, the people living in it are religious, and the people who say the pledge of allegiance are religous. Because someone has a none belief does that mean the rest of us should abandon are beliefs in order to please someone like Mr. Newbow? The word God can be appiled to all religions and people can worship most anything they like so under God means different things to different people and is subject to individual interpretation, therefore it is my opinion that the government is not imposing anything onto anyone.

[hguhgpiuhupp]

Originally posted by Shannon57662
mrgone

therefore it is my opinion that the government is not imposing anything onto anyone.

There are people who do not believe in a god. What about them? Not imposing hé?

In Europe there once was a man who thought God was with him too: 'Got mit uns' he said. You know who?

Keep religion and government seperated!

[Shannon57662]

Yes many terrible things have been done in the name of God and religion. Many terrible things have also been done in the name of freedom shall we remove that word aswell?

Keep religion and government seperated!

Not possible "The fact is like it or not religion is very much a part of this country and government. The people leading this country are religious, the people voting are religous, the people living in it are religious, and the people who say the pledge of allegiance are religous" our values and morals are based on religion (for most people) until you have people with no beliefs you will have religion in government.

There are people who do not believe in a god. What about them? Not imposing hé?

"God means different things to different people and is subject to individual interpretation"
Pick something you believe in and there is your God.

[hguhgpiuhupp]

"God means different things to different people and is subject to individual interpretation" Pick something you believe in and there is your God.

Satan can mean different things to!
BTW, not everyone is religious in the US, otherwise there would never have been a case like this.....

[Shannon57662]

Very true, I think however most people would associate God with good and Satan with evil. I do not wish to define with out loop holes everything I say. You must use some of your own brain power and common sense to grasp what I am apparently impling. In an earlier post I pointed out that while not all people in this countrty are religous the majority are and since these beliefs do not harm anyone why not leave it alone?

[roger d]

The way Hillary thinks it should be changed to"one nation under the laws of copyright as seen by the RIAA.

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by Shannon57662
mrgone


The fact is like it or not religion is very much a part of this country and government. The people leading this country are religious, the people voting are religous, the people living in it are religious, and the people who say the pledge of allegiance are religous. Because someone has a none belief does that mean the rest of us should abandon are beliefs in order to please someone like Mr. Newbow?

Noone asked you to abandon your beliefs. All that's being asked is that the government doesn't shove them down everyone else's throat.

Originally posted by Shannon57662
The word God can be appiled to all religions

No, it cannot. Prime example: Buddha is not (nor has he ever been) any kind of God.

Originally posted by Shannon57662
and people can worship most anything they like so under God means different things to different people and is subject to individual interpretation, therefore it is my opinion that the government is not imposing anything onto anyone.

"Under God" means many things to different people and it insults people who do not include "God" in their belief system.

If you want to preach in church then go ahead, but stop preaching in public schools.

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by Shannon57662
In an earlier post I pointed out that while not all people in this countrty are religous the majority are and since these beliefs do not harm anyone why not leave it alone?

Because as I pointed out in an earlier post "democracy does not mean mob-rule." The will of the majority shall not deny the constitutional rights of the minority. This includes freedom of religion. And yeah, just because someone is forced to say "under god" doesn't necessarily make them convert, if there was bible study in public schools and manditory church on Sundays these wouldn't necessarily stop someone from embracing a different religion either, but it would still be unconstitutional.

[cpugeniusmv]

ponder this:

there is a difference between what the constitution provides, "freedom of religion" and what it does not, "freedom from religion"

--mike

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by cpugeniusmv
ponder this:

there is a difference between what the constitution provides, "freedom of religion" and what it does not, "freedom from religion"

--mike

look back on all the attempts at prayer in school, it's the same issue and the same arguments apply.

[Shannon57662]

Noone asked you to abandon your beliefs. All that's being asked is that the government doesn't shove them down everyone else's throat

Stop trying to shove your belief of seperation of church and state down my throat and do not ask my government to shove seperation of church and state down my throat.

No, it cannot. Prime example: Buddha is not (nor has he ever been) any kind of God.

Do people worship Budda?

Because as I pointed out in an earlier post "democracy does not mean mob-rule." The will of the majority shall not deny the constitutional rights of the minority

I believe in killing old people just cause their old (not really just making a point). I am in the minority am I not? It is not mob-rule when you agree with it right?

You make some good points and we can go back and forth forever. You simply will not be able to please everyone on this topic and I say again how does this hurt non believers to have under God in the pledge of allegiance? No matter how it turns out I will continue to get a chill every time I recite the Pledge of Allegiance, will always be proud to be an American and will continue to believe we are all under God....

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by Shannon57662

Stop trying to shove your belief of seperation of church and state down my throat and do not ask my government to shove seperation of church and state down my throat.

You may not like our Constitutional rights, but they are the basis of what we're discussing here.

Originally posted by Shannon57662
Do people worship Budda?

Buddhism is an incredibly complex religion, but to answer your question in a nutshell: no, he is revered as a teacher.

Originally posted by Shannon57662

I believe in killing old people just cause their old (not really just making a point). I am in the minority am I not? It is not mob-rule when you agree with it right?

Now you're equating people who aren't Christian with murderers. I have to say it, you're a fucking bigot.

Originally posted by Shannon57662

You make some good points and we can go back and forth forever. You simply will not be able to please everyone on this topic and I say again how does this hurt non believers to have under God in the pledge of allegiance?

By the government claiming this nation is "under god" it is (in effect) excluding non-christians. We are lucky this isn't taken to more of an extreme as America's diversity is a thing of beauty and one of its biggest strengths.

Originally posted by Shannon57662
No matter how it turns out I will continue to get a chill every time I recite the Pledge of Allegiance, will always be proud to be an American and will continue to believe we are all under God....

Good for you, but try to respect other people's faiths and open your mind to diversity along with that.

[LordoftheNazgul]

It hurts us by forcing your stupid religion on us dumbass. Look atheist are not trying to force their beliefs on you or make you abandon them all we ask is for you NOT to cram your religion down our throats and for some reason you ignorant zealots can't seem to get that through your heads. Like I always say worship whatever dreamed up deity you like just don't force it on me cause when you do we're going to have a problem. Also noteworthy is the fact the most of the founders of this country were not christian many were deists(aka the believed in a deity but not in any particular relgion) some were agnostics and very likly atheists the only one I know about that was christian was the the one that was considered by many to be of low intelligence(Patrick Henry) Ben Franklin didn't think very highly of him.

[Shannon57662]

Now you're equating people who aren't Christian with murderers. I have to say it, you're a fucking bigot

It has been my experiance in life that when someone runs ot of valid arguments they resort to attacking me as a individual. I refuse to believe that you are not intelligent enough to understand the point I was trying to make. I do not think people who do not believe in God are equal to murderers and you do not know me well enough to formulate the opinion that I am a biggot.

Good for you, but try to respect other people's faiths and open your mind to diversity along with that

I am trying to understand why this is important to you (you seem not to be trying to understand why it is important to me you only want to make sure I know it is important to you) and I do not believe I have disrespected you to the extent you have me. Why do people like you think it is better for you to take away my right to believe that we are one nation under God then it is for me to take away your right to believe we are not?

Buddhism is an incredibly complex religion, but to answer your question in a nutshell: no, he is revered as a teacher.

Ok do Buddist believe in a higher power then Man?


LordoftheNazgul

Look atheist are not trying to force their beliefs on you or make you abandon them all we ask is for you NOT to cram your religion down our throats and for some reason you ignorant zealots can't seem to get that through your heads

I believe we are one nation under God... You were saying?

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by Shannon57662


It has been my experiance in life that when someone runs ot of valid arguments they resort to attacking me as a individual. I refuse to believe that you are not intelligant enough to understand the point I was trying to make. I do not think people who do not believe in God are equal to murderers and you do not know me well enough to formulate the opinion that Iam a biggot.

Funny, the analogy you were making was equating non-christians with murderers. Maybe you'd like to rephrase it.

The point you were trying to make it mute. Murder denies others of their rights (mostly notably "life") while someone not being christian does nothing of the sort.

If you don't like being called a bigot then try being tolerant of people's differing belief systems.

Originally posted by Shannon57662
I am trying to understand why this is important to you and I do not believe I have disrespected you to the extent you have me. Why do people like you think it is better for you to take away my right to believe that we are one nation under God then it is for me to take away your right to believe we are not?

Noone is trying to take away your right to believe in anything. All that is being asked is that that belief isn't shoved down children's throats in public schools.

Originally posted by Shannon57662

Ok do Buddist believe in a higher power then Man?

To make this part of the thread a lot shorter, you're not going to find anything in traditional Buddhist religion that will work with "one nation under god."

Originally posted by Shannon57662

I belive we are one nation under God. You were saying?

Congrats, just don't use public schools to try to force that belief on our nation's youth.

[Shannon57662]

Ok let me make sure I have your tolerant enlightened view correct. As long as I am not in a public enviroment it is ok for me to freely express my beliefs. If I am in a public place then I can not express my beliefs freely so as not to offend the person next to me who does not share the same view. That is what you get from the Constitution? Saying a prayer or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is not manditory for the children in my school district. If you do not want your child to pledge his or her allegiance to his/her country because you do not like the words under God then write your own version and tell your child if he/she would like to he/she can join the rest of the class when they stand to pledge thier allegiance. How about instead of teaching my kids to keep their mouths shut about thier beliefs you teach yours that people have different beliefs and they have the same right as you to express them when ever where ever the would like? If that means you have to sit quietly for three minutes in the morning when you get to school as the rest of the class shares a good morning prayer or recites a pledge you do not believe in then be respectful and prepare for the days lessons or just sit there? You want me to respect your beliefs and I would like you to respect mine in return.

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by Shannon57662
Ok let me make sure I have your tolerant enlightened view correct. As long as I am an adult not in a public enviroment it is ok for me to freely express my beliefs. If I am a child or in a public place then I can not express my beliefs freely so as not to offend the person next to me who does not share the same view. That is what you get from the Constitution?


I find it hard to believe you don't understand the difference between "public" environment and "public" schools. I hope you're just playing the sophist here.

Originally posted by Shannon57662
Saying a prayer or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is not manditory for the children in my school district. If you want your child to pledge his or her allegiance to his/her country because you do not like the words under God then write your own version and tell your child if he/she would like to he/she can join the rest of the class when they stand to pledge thier allegiance. How about instead of teaching my kids to keep their mouths shut about thier beliefs you teach yours that people have different beliefs and they have the same right as you to express them when ever where ever the would like? If that means you have to sit quietly for three minutes in the morning when you get to school as the rest of the class shares a good morning prayer or recites a pledge you do not believe in then be respectful and prepare for the days lessons or just sit there? You want me to respect your beliefs and I would like you to respect mine in return.

This is the same argument some people tried to use to get prayer time alotted in schools. Read up on why that has been repeatedly shot down and apply those reasons here.

[Shannon57662]

There is a difference between teaching religion in school and being religious in school. The point is if you don't want your kid to think we are one nation under God then teach him/her that but do not ask me to teach my children to be tolerant of your point of view by compromising thier right to express thiers.

[cinderellaman]

Since this assertion has been thrown around endlessly, I would like to set the record straight. This country wasn't founded by christians, it was founded by "Freemasons",children. A secret society that, anybody....anybody......, has occult origins!!!!!
Further info on the intentions of our founding fathers on this subject matter can be found here.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

quote:

Originally posted by wessman
The U.S. was colonized by those looking for religious freedom and this country was founded on God-like ideals.

[LordoftheNazgul]

Shannon57662 my ignorant friend you just proved my point thanks. My point was zealots like you will never be able to get it through your head that having us say "one nation under god" is infact your attempt to cram your beliefs down our throats. When I was a kid I had to say the pledge but a sense I was a believer at the time it was no big deal but I will tell you that those kids who sat quietly through it got harassed about it by the other kids. Wake and smell the coffee kids are by nature not very nice. They don't have the empathy and understanding older people have. Well atleast you don't just limit your ignorance to your religouse beliefs.

----------------------------
How about instead of teaching my kids to keep their mouths shut about thier beliefs you teach yours that people have different beliefs and they have the same right as you to express them when ever where ever the would like? If that means you have to sit quietly for three minutes in the morning when you get to school as the rest of the class shares a good morning prayer or recites a pledge you do not believe in then be respectful and prepare for the days lessons or just sit there? You want me to respect your beliefs and I would like you to respect mine in return
----------------------------

How about you take that quote and cram it

----------------------------------
The point is if you don't want your kid to think we are one nation under God then teach him/her that but do not ask me to teach my children to be tolerant of your point of view by compromising their right to express theirs.
----------------------------------

well hopefully your children are more intelligent than you so they don't grow up to be the intolerant ass you turned out as.

and just to respond in advance I am tolerant of pretty much everthing but ignorance (we all have are flaws) and if anyone wants to argue the pros of ignorance and why I should be tolorant of it, feel free(but don't expect a response).

[backmann]

Sorry but... What's the Pledge of Allegiance???

Ivan
"In the dark we make a brighter light"

[Shannon57662]

Ok maybe this will help you understand where I am coming from.

The congress inserting the words under God in to the pledge of allegiance,
Is unconstitutional. (I would have and did disagree before you pointed out God does not include all religions.)

The government printing In God We Trust on our currency,
Is unconstitutional.

The government taking away someone’s ability to express their beliefs,
Is unconstitutional.

The government forcing someone to pledge allegiance to this country (under God or not),
Is unconstitutional.

Reciting the pledge of allegiance (with or with out under God),
Not mandatory by law (West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette 1943).

Children being cruel to other children,
Inevitable, this is where we as adults began learning to be tolerant of our differences.

You are right we are discussing constitutional rights.
The phrase Separation of Church and State, not found anywhere in the Constitution.

I also hope my children grow up to be more intelligent then me. Don’t all parents?
The constitution is subject to interpretation, Because I interpret it’s meaning differently then you does not make me ignorant it only makes my opinion different then yours. With that in mind stop using your professed tolerance to mask your oblivious intolerance of my beliefs (In other words practice what you preach).

I would like to apologize to anyone I may have offended when I equated atheist to murderers.

The point I was feeble attempting to make is that freedom is not absolute. Mankind will always be confined by the constraints of society and it is the majority of that society that determines what those constraints are. In my opinion to say the majority shall not rule over the minority (That statement also not found anywhere in the constitution) is flawed. Having said that it maybe necessary for you to be tolerant of the beliefs of the majority.

BTW—Are Buddhist allowed to believe in God? (Not that it matters anymore as I said I agree that the word God does not apply to all religions. Just checking your knowledge of the Buddhism, mine is very limited but it sounds like an interesting religion.) Oh and Cinderellaman wessman said “God-like ideals” there are many similarities between Gods laws as Christians (and other religions) know them and mans laws as the constitution defines them. However I do not know wessman maybe he did mean this country was founded by Christians, which I do not see as relevant to the constitution anyway.

[Ken17625]

Holy sh.......eet. Damn you people have turned a "Filesharing" website into a religious battle ground. Ok people, just believe in whatever you wan't. Nobody is forcing anything. If you wan't to recite the "Pledge of alliginance and don't wan't to say "under god", THEN DON'T. And NO people won't force childern to either. Just to clear things up, I take no sides, as a mater of fact, I do not believe in a "God" of any kind. Personally I am secure in my beliefs to the point where I don't need to "bitch and moan".


So I worship the Iguana.,


Be Afraid.

[Raven]

Man, whats this country coming to?
I tell you, we have some real pinkos in office.
I'm gonna have to clear up all this mess as usual.

[Raven]

I have seen many misguided arguments on this topic spread across this board and thought that I should try to do my best to sort them out.

There are people that have been offended by the stanza in the United States pledge of allegiance that lists the USA as "one nation under God" because it supposedly unfairly endorses one religion over another on the federal level. This would be a valid argument if not for the presence of one word in particular, "God". Due to the fact that the word "God" is a general inference to a spiritual entity just like the word "Car" is a general inference to a machine with four wheels that transports people, it neither supports or denounces any religion in particular. The claim that the word "God" could unfairly support any specific religious sect or affiliation is as absurd as the notion that the word "Car" could unfairly support any specific automobile dealership or production factory.

The reason though for confusion in this issue is that in the Jewish and Christian religions it is considered highly unorthodox to attempt to refer to their God on a name-to-name basis. So members of the Christian and Jewish faiths simply refer to their creator as "God" as a sign of respect. Much like men in the military would refer to their commanding officer as "Sir" instead of "Billy-Bob". This has unfortunately let many people to the mistaken assumption that the name of the God praised in the Judeo-Christian faiths is actually named "God".

As far as my opinion of the word "God" in the Pledge, my personal views are as follows. It is a statistical fact that all but a small percentage of this Country's population believes in the existence of a spiritual entity in some way or another. Therefore it is wholly suitable that these persons should choose to call upon their spiritual entity in a fashion that would either bless or grace their also beloved country. Any hindrance to the ability of a person to do so is nothing less than a breech of the first amendment.

[PatientSaint]

wow couldn't have said it much better myself.

[Shannon57662]

Damn that pretty much sums it up.

[wessman]

Raven:

You are a god of words! I agree with everybody else; that summed it up. I just wish I could have spoke so gracefully at the start of this thread!

:sw

[Carpe Diem]

whats wrong with a pledge of allegiance. the freedom of speech act, is derived with the understanding that one has the right to say what they want. sure there are reperucssions involved and this will alienate the poor kid, but u know what, its a new time and day and so what if someone is different. i think its wrong though for a kid not to say the pledge of allegiance, they dont have to say it, just mumble it. well made the pledge of allegiance is a litttle to much to bear for a kid, but come on how can they understand this they are young. this is such a crap of bolonga, its beyond me that they allowed this to go to the courts.
people make choices in life, it dont mean nothing if the kid dont say it, but let it be, whats here is now, and has been part of the usa history.
in essence, the pledge of a allegiance is also should be protected under the constitution, because the same way that individuals want freedom of speech, its the same way that the school can implement this pledge of allegiance
its not like they are teaching racism or nazism, its about choice, so if there is a ruling it should be allowed, cuz this pledge of allegiance is freedom of speech based on the fact that people say what they want. so well its about *freedom* this is got to be ruled out. i predict it will remain due to the fact, the usa has the right to freedom of speech, and this also gives them the right to say what they want, regardless of how people or anyone agree.

[chosenone]

This is an issue that will be debated for years and years to come. As soon as we take God out of the foundation of this country I will run for the hills ( with abroadband connection I hope ) and hide cuz this country will be going to hell in a handbasket. We started this country based on religous fundamentals and if we loose that we have lost everything that matters.

Just my opinion if youdon't agree I will watch you from the heavens above as you wander in the depths of hell:devil

[PowerMan57two]

I think we should not speak it. it has the word god in it, and some of us don't believe in him. so I say we should not be able to speak it

[Desbaine]

How about "under any religion we damn well want, you micro-managing neener-heads countries of the world? Look at us and how great we are!"

[Ken17625]

This country was based on freedom. Not religion. But.......telling people not to say something is taking away freedom. But having a word, in a pledge, does not force said people to recite that word. Give people the option. They will make their own choice.

[dr. damn]

In California, the pledge is used by teachers because it fills a state educational code requirement that students engage in an act of patriotism at least once per day.

Has anyone here read 1984?

[Kobold]

1. The USSR atheism was in fact a religion. Here is a quick comparison for you.

God, Jesus and holy ghost - Marx, Lenin and Engels
Chrisian holy texts - Marx's Kapital, Lenins's writings
Believing in heaven - believing into the light future
Same tree-like control system
both allowed only one reading of holy texts
both had a godlike leader which was always right
........................
and so on ad nauseum.


2. Does really any constitution matter in American society? Last time I checked, the only thing you could do with it without having an army of lawyers was wiping your ass.

3. What should Wiccans or devil worshippers say in pledge of allegiance? Or, for example, descendants of Japanese people who were considered state enemies during WW2? "This state kept our fathers and grandfathers in concentration camps because of their nationality, but nethertheless we are patriots"?

[Desbaine]

Saying "god" doesn't endorse a particular brand of religion? Certainly, saying "you're nothing without a car" doesn't endorse a particular manufacturer, but it does endorse several levels of things: (a) a specific mode of transportation, (b) a specific industry, and (c) consumerism. The government encouraging consumerism is alright, but that's not even part of the "car" analogy.

I feel that the only reason for removing "under God" is to keep the government from endorsing a specific type of religion and to keep the government from endorsing religion at all. After all, godless, murdering atheists are citizens too.

And while the rest of the countries drives their cars, I'll be riding my bike. Ring ring!

Misc:
How about a factual statement instead of a faith-based statement? "...one nation, that mostly believes in a god, indivisble...."

The only class of religions that I know of that refers to its deity as capital-G "God" is the Judeo-Christian class. I highly doubt that the "God" in "under God", or "in God we trust", or "so help me God" is ambiguous at all.

[Vash_the_Stampede]

Originally posted by mrgone4662


BTW, Christianity isn't the only organized religion. So where is "under Allah" or "under Buddha" if organized religion is what this is supposed to educate people about?

Why? Because "Allah" is simply "God" in the Arabic language.

Not under Buddha because (as far as I know) Buddha was a prophet (this would be like changing it to "one nation, under Mohammed" or "one nation, under Christ")

Originally posted by Kobold

The USSR atheism was in fact a religion. Here is a quick comparison for you.

God, Jesus and holy ghost - Marx, Lenin and Engels
Chrisian holy texts - Marx's Kapital, Lenins's writings
Believing in heaven - believing into the light future
Same tree-like control system
both allowed only one reading of holy texts
both had a godlike leader which was always right


I disagree. God created the world. Marx wrote about a utopian (ands impossible to acheive, I might add) system of government. Big difference there.

Jesus was sent to Earth to teach us how God wants us to live. Lenin, on the other hand, did not follow Marx's true "communism", rather his own version that was worse that the Marxist one.

Although I can see comparing Engels to a "ghost" may be appropriate as he didn't really do much other than give Marx money and accept parentage of his love-child. But to the Holy Ghost would be inaccurate because that would again imply that he is present to do Marx's will, which he was not for Lenin...

There were multiple texts, Das Kapital however was not the main one, The Communist Manifesto was. And its obvious by Lenin's ignorance of Marx's true intentions that these texts were by far less important to Lenin than the Bible or Quran or Torah or any other holy book is to their respective religeons.

Originally posted by Kobold

Last time I checked, the only thing you could do with it without having an army of lawyers was wiping your ass.

You have political correctness to thank for that....

Originally posted by Kobold

What should Wiccans or devil worshippers say in pledge of allegiance?


Wiccans beleive in gods, namely Hecate.

Devil worshippers are more cornered here, but they (unlike Wiccans) are generally quite evil, so I have no qualms about making them offended.

I also very much like what Raven said about this...

So in conclusion, the United States should keep their pledge of alleigance the same. Especially since your anthem also mentions God, and yet there is no pressure yet to change that...

[Kobold]

By comparing Marx, Lenin and Engels to christian god*3, I didn't want to imply that their functions in religion are the same. I just wanted to mention that both of groups were blindly worshipped.

When someone is assumed to be Always Right and everybody who opposes this idea is considered the enemy, it is a religion. Not all religions require the object of worship to be a creator of the world. BTW, Lenin was advertising himself as future creator of the new world (communist world).


Same thing with texts. It doesn't matter what text is accepted as primary, and which as secondary (I just took one that came first out of my head, fortunately I wasn't studying all this stuff in university). A worshipped leader can always twist text's meaning and do any crime "for the sake of Jesus/communism/liberty/something else", so only the fact of existance of "holy" texts matters.


Speaking about Wiccans, I like it. ...one nation, under Hecate... That sounds cool ;)

Some religions or beleif systems include MANY gods and the word "God" is offensive to them because it assumes that their multi-god confilcting force universe concept is meaningless. And there are those who DON'T want to be members of one nation or DON'T want to be under god, satan or green lizard.

[mrgone4662]

Originally posted by Vash_the_Stampede


Not under Buddha because (as far as I know) Buddha was a prophet (this would be like changing it to "one nation, under Mohammed" or "one nation, under Christ")

Nope, not a prophet; just a teacher. Simple as that.. normal guy who figured things out and decided to share.

[Aaron73153]

If you don't like "Unger God" being in the pledge there are other countries that would be better suited for you they are Cuba, North Korea, and China. If you don't want God in the allegance get out of here you damn Commie! What the hell has happened to this nation that now the "Oppressed" minority seems to have all the power and get things their way. I'm recieveing less and less anlthough that it is predominately the white, christain males that made this country great. I realize that alot of the supporters of slavery were wrong, but many of our former leaders had none and people like Jefferson treated his unusally well. Dont e-mail me saying i'm raceist, i am just speaking the truth and these days that seems to be the characteristics of who is now a raceist.

[Kobold]

If this country/government/"one nation" doesn't like people that doesn't like pledge of alliance, why doesn't it evict them in 24 hours? No problems ever, live in your free country with your rules. But if they are allowed into country and their taxes are accepted (I think you know that newcomers work harder and are paid less then those who are born in US), their ideas and vision of the world should be accepted.

Summary: Feel free to dump everybody who doesn't like your ideas, but then don't whine that US turned into an idiotic popcorn chewing nation (this process is going fast already).

[PatientSaint]

Thankfully this country allows opinions like the people you are complaining about and the ignorant ones you are posting. :tol

[whiff]

the consititution forbids "an establishment of religion" - doesn't matter what religion. that's wording is there because in england the government started its own church, and a lot of people came to america to get away from state-sponsored religion.

I think the 9th Circuit was right: forcing public school children to acknowlege god, any god, is an establishment of religion. schools should teach facts, not fantasy.

and make no mistake, the rights of the minority (meaning the tiny percentage of athiests in the USA) do matter, and should not be trampled by the god-fearing majority.

personally i'm amazed that people still subscibe to all this fantastic baloney about invisible supernatural beings. it's just too bad that the 9th Circuit doesn't have the courage to do what's right, follow through and enforce their own ruling. Justice has become a popularity contest, and the people who believe in angels and miracles are winning right now.

in the immortal words of negativland:
"christianity is stupid - communism is good" ;-)

[turret]

Originally posted by whiff
the consititution forbids "an establishment of religion" - doesn't matter what religion. that's wording is there because in england the government started its own church, and a lot of people came to america to get away from state-sponsored religion.


Just nitpicking here <grin>, but, I think you'll find it says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," which I interpret as "Congress may neither forbid nor mandate a religion."
The final conclusion would of course be the same as yours: The government may not force anyone to believe or not believe in anything (excepting the iguana. All hail the iguana!)


As a side note, see, <http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,745265,00.html>
for the opinion of an American journalist that holds the European view of the Pledge, namely: "Why is this still being done in the 21st century?"


(thanks to whoever posted the link to earlyamerica. interesting site.)

[notbob]

screw america and screw god--religion is a scam to get your money and america is a lie -- based on freedom while they slowly erode away the most important rights--DMCA becomes a weapon against free speech, the patriot act kills the right to due process and allows illegal searches and seizures

patriotism is a method to disguise them stealing your rights away--like hot cheerleaders make you forget your favorite team sucks

the american government isn't and never has been "of the people, for the people" or any of the other patriotic cliches--our government is a corporate whorehouse where our civil rights are sold to the highest bidders, and taking god out of the pledge of allegiance is not going to change that, and putting it back in won't either.

[cheapprick]

Great rant man.

Liked the part in the middle about the hot cheerleaders best.
Couldn't stomach the rest.

[jabba|xtra]

you know there is no law that says you have to say it in school. We dont have to at our school if we dont want to.

[Lazereye]

O.K; Look through world history for a moment. Many countries and cultures have risen and fallen due to "religion". As a result many strong and forthright ppl left their homeland to get away from religious and political (monarc) control. America was a naked land. Sorry to say the indian are now at the bottom of the ethnic chain. Big mistake. That is another story. The founding fathers created a plan based on "Christian Judeo Priciples". Low and behold in a matter of 150 years (real short amount of time) America became the most powerful and most dreamed of land on the planet. The family was strong. A country was built. Then in 1964 or something, everyone started taking drugs, fu#king each other and burning bibles and the flag. Now with all these equal rights we have a real mess. Kind of a sporting event between good and evil. No one wants to take responsibility, everyone wants to blame someone else, everyone wants to feel sorry for someone, no one gives a rats ass, everyone thinks someone else owes them something. The Great Roman Empire fell due to lust, power, greed, ect. Change your ways ass hole's, or kiss it the fuck goodbye.

[Fallout2man]

Originally posted by Lazereye
O.K; Look through world history for a moment. Many countries and cultures have risen and fallen due to "religion". As a result many strong and forthright ppl left their homeland to get away from religious and political (monarc) control. America was a naked land. Sorry to say the indian are now at the bottom of the ethnic chain. Big mistake. That is another story. The founding fathers created a plan based on "Christian Judeo Priciples". Low and behold in a matter of 150 years (real short amount of time) America became the most powerful and most dreamed of land on the planet. The family was strong. A country was built. Then in 1964 or something, everyone started taking drugs, fu#king each other and burning bibles and the flag. Now with all these equal rights we have a real mess. Kind of a sporting event between good and evil. No one wants to take responsibility, everyone wants to blame someone else, everyone wants to feel sorry for someone, no one gives a rats ass, everyone thinks someone else owes them something. The Great Roman Empire fell due to lust, power, greed, ect. Change your ways ass hole's, or kiss it the fuck goodbye.


There is a difference between founding a nation on Christian principles and on forcing the youth of the country to acknowledge a god.

The bible does contain many very good principles for living life, it preaches tolerance, kindness, and many other things that are very good lessons that reach across the boundaries of religion.

However, the fact of the matter is, the constitution calls for a separation of church and state, this requires separation at all levels. During the summer, it was the pledge of allegiance. Soon other uses of the word God may follow. If you do not like the rules and freedoms of the constitution, then you are by all means welcome to lobby for an amendment that allows government organizations to preach religion to children at a young age.

This is not, repeat not, about telling people they cannot teach their children about religion, far from it. This is merely saying the government institutions cannot ask children to acknowledge the existence of a god, Christian or otherwise. For remember, Atheism, and Agnotism, are also considered religions as well. So do not worry about the government saying you cannot worship God, the government is merely saying it cannot ask people to acknowledge God’s existence.

This may be a minor issue, yes, however I do believe any violations of the constitution need to be caught and dealt with. Otherwise, if we let even the little things by, then they could slowly start getting bigger and bigger until we have a big problem on our hands. Just look at the laws that are passing under the so called “War on terrorism.” That’s a good example of how these things can get out of hand, if the people don’t maintain vigilance to keep the government from infringing on the constitution. If we give them slack, even a little, no matter how supposedly noble the reason is, we’ll get a lot of things that unfairly persecute and take away other’s freedoms, in the case of things like the patriot act, this would be for the name of national security.

The first amendment guarantees freedom of religion and that the government shall never establish a religion (which also includes supporting existing ones). By a government institution asking children to speak something (regardless of whether or not they believe it) that acknowledges the existence of a god, it is a violation of the establishment clause. The same reason was used to remove prayer from school.

[notbob]

know how old this thread is? i'll give you a hint

look up 5 posts and you will see MY FIRST POST!!! yes that's right folks the first one i ever did

this is truly an historic thread

[cpugeniusmv]

now that you mention it, my first post was in this thread also! ahh memories.

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

Where we are now...

House Blocks Court on Pledge Case Rulings

WASHINGTON - The House, in an emotionally and politically charged debate six weeks before the election, voted Thursday to protect the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance from further court challenges.

The legislation, promoted by GOP conservatives, would prevent federal courts, including the Supreme Court, from hearing cases challenging the words "under God," a part of the pledge for the past 50 years.

Democrats said majority Republicans were debasing the Constitution to force a vote that could hurt Democrats at the ballot box.

Read entire story here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040924/ap_on_go_co/pledge_under_god).

For notbob and the memories...

[notbob]

i didn't even pull punches on post # 1 did i?

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

No..something must have happened during your stay here. Care to elaborate?

[GiR]

I figure anyone should be able to pledge alegence to whatever they deem worthy or appropriate. In Canada, I used to change the words of 'O' Canada' all the time,... not because I was unpatriotic (even though I am, no matter where I came from), but because I can.

It shoulc be more like, "one nation, under the Media,.. blah blah blah,.." since thats what most americans seem to follow. But whatever, leave it in the pledge of allegence,... it may offend some, but its all a big joke to me,... and should be to those who think the same way. :)

I pledge my allegence to MYSELF! and then my family, and then my friends,... then maybe god,.. if i believed in that sort of thing,... and VERY LASTLY the government, because they only care about themselves too.

[projectmayhem325]

All I know is that in any US annotated legal supplement, there are four volumes documenting the first amendment (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.) , and not a single one of those volumes ever has any case basis for defending state sponsored religion, and Jefferson, and Madison (the two most important presidents in regards to the founding of this country I call home), would slit their wrists the long way (the way if really you mean it) if they saw the way that religion has suctioned itself onto so many parts of our government today.

This was a country created by those who were disenfranchised by religion-sponsored governments, and it seems so pathetic that we are becoming that which we once sought to protect ourselves from.

[ROMANTICGUY50]

I suport the pledge the way it is. One nation under God. I dont see any reason why it should be changed.

[cjules13]

Maybe because people deserve the right to pledge allegiance and be proud Americans, but should not have to pledge under some fairy-tale made-up God. There are Muslim Americans, Hindu-Americans, who may not care to pledge under a Christian God... yeah, yeah you'll say it's good for any God but you and me both know it's the Christian version.

Besides, it was added later in 1953 (the phrase"under God") and some sort of Cold War propaganda that you guys are so eagerly eating up... with gravy too. THE ORIGINAL PLEDGE DID NOT CONTAIN THAT PHRASE.

It's like people want it... "Please sir, can you brainwash me again? Please again, I prefer it that way and it's comfortable!" F'ing drones with no feeling for free will and basic concepts of science.


Nice 1st post notbob - rofl big time!!!! :)

[Burd]

Neither religion nor patriotism should be forced. If people don't believe in either on their own, then they're worthless. THAT'S the problem here. Making kids recite a--to them--relatively meaningless "pledge" is an exercise in futility. Many kids don't even known the meaning of the words (who's Richard Stands, by the way? "And to the country for Richard Stands...") The whole thing is just dumb and intended to placate the adults. It does nothing for the kids.

[notbob]

pledge ye legions, to the flag
of the unknighted states of amerigo
and to the republicans, for Richard Hatch, one nation, underdog,
india visible, with literacy and jugs/tits for Al

say this, and nobody will ever know you aren't playing along

c'mon kids! say it with me!

[cjules13]

and a nice 2209th post too... lol two years later in the same thread...

[YWD67]

I suport the pledge the way it is. One nation under God. I dont see any reason why it should be changed.

This is not the original pledge though. The original line was "one nation indivisable". The Eisenhower Adm. added the words "under god" (christian god was infered) in the 50's as a political move during the cold war, to show that the U.S. was a god (christian god was infered) fearing nation, and not a supposed atheist communist nation like U.S.S.R.

So in all reality the the words were added as a political ploy, not as a religious acknowledgment as many of the christian right would have you believe.

[zpman]

pledge ye legions, to the flag
of the unknighted states of amerigo
and to the republicans, for Richard Hatch, one nation, underdog,
india visible, with literacy and jugs/tits for Al

say this, and nobody will ever know you aren't playing along

c'mon kids! say it with me!

fucking brilliant, but who is Al?

Gore?
Franken?
Bundy?

[Dark Messenger]

...all because of the two words "under God," added in the 1950s. The word God is on our currency, carved into federal and state buildings, spoken in court by witnesses giving oath, and most importantly, its in the damn Constitution itself!



Brings up a good point...if you don't swear by "God" what would you substitute in its place?

Here's an example:

Do you solemnly swear by the Easter Bunny that you are telling the whole truth and only the truth so help you, Easter Bunny?

[aqlo]

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Matthew 5:33-37

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
James 5:12

And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and [is] a witness, whether he hath seen or known [of it]; if he do not utter [it], then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:1

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exodus 20:4-7

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Acts 17:22

[shawners]

what would the next verse be. "Under a tree" Leave it as is, bigger issues and bigger problems exist. Yet everyone finds away to try to take or change something thats not even worth changing.

[mcovey]

Uh oh, there's a libertarian here...
Allow my thoughts on the issue.

Schools should not be run like we're socialists. They should be privatized. Stop spending tax money sending kids who are going to fail every class to school, and let parents whose children will succeed get scholarships and financial aid (which would be more widely available, with the failing kids not having to compete). With that, the pledge issue simply dissappears.

My government-run school does not say the pledge of allegiance, yet my old private school did, but allowed anyone who wished to remain silent. Most kids still said it.

[mcovey]

I am sure they did, out of fear of ridicule and being harassed by other students if they didn't.
... are you serious?

That would not have happened. And it didn't to those who didn't say it. Prep schools are no longer stately institutions of pomp and circumstance, full of conservative young men and women who enjoy a lovely spot of rugby now and then.

Most of them either said it because they were used to it, because they were asked to and obliged, or were actually patriotic.

Those who didn't were either foreign boarding students (about 30% of the school population) or simply, for their own reasons, wished to remain silent.

[Dark Messenger]

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Matthew 5:33-37

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
James 5:12

And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and [is] a witness, whether he hath seen or known [of it]; if he do not utter [it], then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5:1

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exodus 20:4-7

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Acts 17:22


oh great another religious zealot. <-- This is sarcasm and I feel I should mention it is as I am very grateful for seeing another post by aqlo. You have really posted some really good things in the past especially in what others would consider "god shit" or "religious threads."

I admire your faith and the diligence with which you've studied scripture if I am remembering correctly were you the one who touched briefly on the Council of Nicea?

Either you or Piranetus had attended some form of seminary or had spent a great deal of time studying scripture including reading Origin of Species and comparing notes over various religions and uncanonised scriptures such as the gnostic gospels and the ibid.

I'd love to hear more of your insights into faith and belief...tell me am I limited only to those things which you've written in the past or will you share some more of "your faith" with "us" defined as me?

[Digital Bliss]

Who gives a fuck

[shawners]

Maybe because people deserve the right to pledge allegiance and be proud Americans, but should not have to pledge under some fairy-tale made-up God. There are Muslim Americans, Hindu-Americans, who may not care to pledge under a Christian God... yeah, yeah you'll say it's good for any God but you and me both know it's the Christian version.

Besides, it was added later in 1953 (the phrase"under God") and some sort of Cold War propaganda that you guys are so eagerly eating up... with gravy too. THE ORIGINAL PLEDGE DID NOT CONTAIN THAT PHRASE.

It's like people want it... "Please sir, can you brainwash me again? Please again, I prefer it that way and it's comfortable!" F'ing drones with no feeling for free will and basic concepts of science.


Nice 1st post notbob - rofl big time!!!! :)

But since were not a muslim nation and muslims are killing christians in other countries. Tsunami anyone?

[Digital Bliss]

Honestly who gives a fuck its not like the church is making the laws oh no under god ahhh panic.....

[notbob]

Honestly who gives a fuck its not like the church is making the laws oh no under god ahhh panic.....


right now a small group of texas religious zealots control what textbooks the rest of the country uses

right now, a religious zealot in the white house controls a lot of other stuff, including who will end up on the supreme court, the people who control what the constitution means

forced prayer in school, here we come!

fuckers

[thewhitrbbit]

It doesn't imply any particular god so its ok. Now if they said One Nation Under Jesus, it would be an issue

[sister_sue48]

How about we leave it alone. If they don't want to say under God then they don't have to!

[zpman]

I do not think it is unconstitutional, since the constitution grants the right to worship freely. I don't think the government should meddle in this. It should be up to school board officails to decide. Not the federal government. What is good for one particular school may not be for another. For example, in my small community, 99% of the people are Christian. We want our children to learn about our faith. However, in other communies which are not as Christian or not at all, there ought to be a local vote or something, within the school district. Remember, our constitution gives us freedom of religion, not neccessarily freedom from it.

Bottomline: leave it up to local politics and school boards to decide what is best for their schools. We do not need to institutionalize everything one certain way or another.

[shawners]

Each religion that may appose the phrase, they all believe in the existance of God. Its the atheist that have the problem. They dont want their kids to have their mind filled with the image of anything. Atheist dont believe in God, yet every time they take something away. They turn into sadist. Or anti-christ. Yet when they take these people to court or go on trial, they swear on the bible to tell the truth. Yet they dont try to remove that, isnt that a bigger injustice since most people who commit crime may be other religious backgrounds or dont even believe in God, as well as other christians who do go on the stand. They will deny their faith alot of the times.

[Dark Messenger]

Each religion that may appose the phrase, they all believe in the existance of God. Its the atheist that have the problem. They dont want their kids to have their mind filled with the image of anything. Atheist dont believe in God, yet every time they take something away. They turn into sadist. Or anti-christ. Yet when they take these people to court or go on trial, they swear on the bible to tell the truth. Yet they dont try to remove that, isnt that a bigger injustice since most people who commit crime may be other religious backgrounds or dont even believe in God, as well as other christians who do go on the stand. They will deny their faith alot of the times.

That's my point exactly. Why not remove "god" entirely?

[soulxtc]

no separation of church and state, only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......" i.e. it plays a nuetral part, not separated, merely no established state religion as there was in England when the nation's founders fled England, the Church of England.

[Dark Messenger]

no separation of church and state, only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof......" i.e. it plays a nuetral part, not separated, merely no established state religion as there was in England when the nation's founders fled England, the Church of England.

That's a good answer is probably where Pat Robertson coined the phrase that this meant Freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.

[mcovey]

That's a good answer is probably where Pat Robertson coined the phrase that this meant Freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.
Pat Robertson's a douchebag.

I agree though. You are free to practice your religion, and the government is free to not open public schools, thereby evading the problem altogether. There could be privatized athiest schools as well. In fact, there are several :)

[soulxtc]

They should just pull out the words under GOD. THey've only been there since 1953, as it was in response to the Red SCare of the day, the Reds being afraid of religion as in MArx's words, the "opiate of the masses." They figured they could freak em out by making them say under God, if they couldn't then by golly they had to be a crumby Commie.
To quote:
...In 1955, with Ike's support, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ."

The campaign to add "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was part of this movement. It's unclear precisely where the idea originated, but one driving force was the Catholic fraternal society the Knights of Columbus. In the early '50s the Knights themselves adopted the God-infused pledge for use in their own meetings, and members bombarded Congress with calls for the United States to do the same. Other fraternal, religious, and veterans clubs backed the idea. In April 1953, Rep. Louis Rabaut, D-Mich., formally proposed the alteration of the pledge in a bill he introduced to Congress.

As we all know, it passed. So let's see, 177 years without, 52 years with. Which makes more sense?

[GiR]

I would frame it as 'God = Ourselves'. I used to think that there was no God,.. but now i think there is,.. that I am God,.. and so are the people I know,.. and everyone else who makes a conscious thought. I don't trivialize myself with religion, because I know when people do things for 'god, they do it for themselves. Because really, everyone is a small part of everyone else, and we grow off eachother.

It doesn't imply any particular god so its ok. Now if they said One Nation Under Jesus, it would be an issue

Now if people could get over these backwater concepts of a 'god', perhaps we could alieviate some of the problems religion and its influence of ignorance has had on us. Of course, even I don't have all the answers,.. being god and all ;)

[Digital Bliss]

Got warned and was told I didnt get it..... Well when it comes down to it god is just a damn word wether you say it or not in school who cares? Yes I understand the whole church and state thing and if you say god in school which is a state facilty then people get all pissy personally I dont care because no one is putting a gun to your head saying you have to say it. Among other things if it has anything to do with religious prefrence last time i checked almost every religion has some type of "god" in it. When it comes down to it personally i dont give a fuck we have so many other problems in this country besides this. Why are people complaining now its been there for long time and on the other side if anyone reads their history books god was not orginally in the pledge so there. Tell me I dont get it....

[Mels_Smileys45]

I just don't think kids need to be made to say any type of pledge every day. Its a failed form of brain washing. Let them use their time to learn and just drop this foolish ritual.

[zpman]

Why is this such an argument? It's one thing for me to shove my God down your throat. It's another thing for you to try to take it away from me. Of course, everyone in the universe thinks that 'their' idea of the way things are is the 'right' way. It's just like Jewish who believe they are correct. Or a Muslim thinks he is correct. Or a Christian thinks he is correct. Maybe everyone is correct? I'm a Catholic, but I don't doubt that the Muslim God is also my God. I don't doubt that the secularists 'mother nature' as it were, is the same thing also. Who cares if you have a different name for the same thing? Whatever force created the universe also created you and me. Why fight over that? Why not agree that this is true in one way or another? Personally, i believe in the Big bang. It just makes too much sense. But I also believe that if there was nothing there before that, or if the entire universe was just one atom, what put that atom there to begin with? Some things are too complex for the human mind to comprehend. Nobody will really know the truth, until they die. Either there is something, or there is nothing. I myself, like to believe there is an afterlife beyond this one, whatever that may be.

I believe in Christianity because I was raised that way. My mother had me baptized in our Church. I don't believe that I'm better than anyone else, just because somebody else does not believe the same things as me. I do believe that there are a lot of fake Christians (among other religions as well).

[Mels_Smileys45]

Why is this such an argument? It's one thing for me to shove my God down your throat. It's another thing for you to try to take it away from me.

No ones trying to take your god away from you or anyone elses away from them either. You can say a silent prayer all day long and no one will even care. Just don't ask me to say it with you.

I do not think it is unconstitutional, since the constitution grants the right to worship freely. I don't think the government should meddle in this. It should be up to school board officails to decide. Not the federal government. What is good for one particular school may not be for another.

Why not let each person decide whats best for them instead of letting someone else tell them what to do or say. Whats good for one particular person may not be for another. You should also have the right to not worship freely.

[Excrement_Cranium]

I actually had this discussion with my father. He was born in 1942, and went to catholic school all the way through graduation.

He told me when he was a kid "under god" was not in the pledge of allegiance. So that is an addition from the last 50 years or so. He doesn't get what the big deal is. He said he wasn't allowed to join the boyscouts because they attended different church services. So being raised in a strict catholic home, he still doesn't get it. He figures it to be more of a matter of tradition than faith. Dunno. I can live with or without it.

[Mels_Smileys45]

The under god was not in there until I was like in third grade. We kept fucking it up for weeks when they put it in there. I don't know why is was missing or inserted in there. I had all but forgot about that till your post EC

[Digital Bliss]

My god can kick your gods ass and pirates are cooler then ninjas :icon_thum

[Mels_Smileys45]

Could god make an ass so bad that he could not kick it? And if he could not then does that mean that even god has limited power?

[trekkeriii]

I say, make the Pledge as it was before they added "Under God" into it. I mean that was added in the mid-20th century. The United States is not a Christian Nation nor was founded as one (I am talking about when it was formed, not settled), therefore, should not have the pledge, money, or courts have "Under God" on or in them. I really think they need to just not have the Bible in the courtrooms, too, or have every religious book on earth in the courts' library (personally I would think it'd be easier to have none at all). I mean it's one thing to assimilate into American Society (dress, law, etc.), but one should not have to assimilate to a specific Religion (this should be a personal decision, not something government forces on you), which is what the first amendment is all about.

[riderx]

life is totally weird man
things arent fair
i hate havin to grow up and when i did
and then u have to face things ya dont wanna life is grrrrrrrr
life is what u make it

and then i leave my mark until someone else

[Excrement_Cranium]

It doesn't matter to me. Honestly, the people who threw a fit about it make me wanna puke. I hate churchies, but I hate militant athiests and lesbians too.

BTW, I am an athiest, and I like the new dinosaur the lickalotapuss.

[cjules13]

New developments... looks like our friend in California finally got his wish.


Karlton, ruling in Sacramento, said he would sign a restraining order preventing the recitation of the pledge at the Elk Grove Unified, Rio Linda and Elverta Joint Elementary school districts in Sacramento County, where the plaintiffs' children attend.

The order would not extend beyond those districts unless it is affirmed by the 9th Circuit, in which case it could apply to nine western states, or the Supreme Court, which would apply to all states.

Full link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050914/ap_on_re_us/pledge_of_allegiance (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050914/ap_on_re_us/pledge_of_allegiance)

[Potato]

What happened to freedom of speech?

Preventing the recitation of the pledge of allegiance? I didn't know restraining orders could do that. Interesting.

[cjules13]

What happened to freedom of speech?

Preventing the recitation of the pledge of allegiance? I didn't know restraining orders could do that. Interesting.

Only under strict circumstances:

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."


I personally believe I and my kids should "be free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Don't you?

[Burd]

Neither patriotism nor religious beliefs should be forced. People are going to be patriotic or not, religious or not, and a mandatory "pledge" is not going to make a difference. It's not "feedom of speech" if you REQUIRE someone to say something. That's the point here: making people say something that they don't necessarily believe in.

[crackerjacker]

well i use to have to say it
it didnt mean crap to me

[crackerjacker]

whats wrong with a pledge of allegiance. the freedom of speech act, is derived with the understanding that one has the right to say what they want. sure there are reperucssions involved and this will alienate the poor kid, but u know what, its a new time and day and so what if someone is different. i think its wrong though for a kid not to say the pledge of allegiance, they dont have to say it, just mumble it. well made the pledge of allegiance is a litttle to much to bear for a kid, but come on how can they understand this they are young. this is such a crap of bolonga, its beyond me that they allowed this to go to the courts.
people make choices in life, it dont mean nothing if the kid dont say it, but let it be, whats here is now, and has been part of the usa history.
in essence, the pledge of a allegiance is also should be protected under the constitution, because the same way that individuals want freedom of speech, its the same way that the school can implement this pledge of allegiance
its not like they are teaching racism or nazism, its about choice, so if there is a ruling it should be allowed, cuz this pledge of allegiance is freedom of speech based on the fact that people say what they want. so well its about *freedom* this is got to be ruled out. i predict it will remain due to the fact, the usa has the right to freedom of speech, and this also gives them the right to say what they want, regardless of how people or anyone agree.
i totally agree with you self :) thanks

[Sephiroth]

I think the whole things has been blown out of proportion, and that there is a disconnect between many of the people fighting for it and reality. I think that there is no real rights issue here, and the whole thing is purely symbolic and for political means.

Everyone is assuming that just because its said that every student has to say it daily which is not the case at all ,it really is a optional thing. The only thing students might have to do is to just stand up while its said which just because someone stands up while its being said doesnt mean they believe it or even support it. There are some who didnt even have to do that because of their beliefs.

So i dont see how it is coercive and i dont think ultimately it will be banned outright from school.

[Potato]

Here's an idea...

Don't require it.


Kids shouldn't be forced to say it... they should certainly have the freedom not to if that's what they choose.

However, they should also be allowed the freedom to say "under God" if they want.

[crash4419]

this world is coming to it's end

im 14 and my dad says im living crappy teenage years when compared to him

i wish i grew up in the 60's/70's

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

I personally believe I and my kids should "be free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Don't you?

Absolutely.

[Digital Bliss]

im gonna make my own relgion we will say under tampons

[black_magiic]

I've decided to start my own religion. I am god. No one else believes me to hell with it. Im happy:P

[Excrement_Cranium]

im gonna make my own relgion we will say under tampons


I don't know about tampons.



"One nation, under the sway of nookie"