Can P2P die?

[GTA]

I just got done reading that open letter from the RIAA and it is pretty stupid. I don't get how they can stop P2P. They are making threats that they are going to sue Bearshare,Morpheus,Blubster,Kazaa etc. Who cares? If they shut down those programs I'm sure people will move over to other programs that don't have many users and those programs will get better. Its like if they shut down Kazaa,Shareaza Most people will move over to Ares and that program will be great. Then they will shut down Ares and there will be another program out. I don't think you can really kill P2P. We may have to move program to program but it won't get rid of us.
Who know we all may be using NeoNapster one day LOL.

[nasrules]

of course it can. if the internet dies, so does p2p. until then, no. well jus move. look what hapnd when napster died. evry1 went sumwhere else . itll happen agen.

EDIT:

d-koolest: yeh i should rephrase that but i cant b bothered to work out wot i wanna say!!!! if that hapnd tho, the number of file-sharers would drop dramatically

[d-koolest]

Originally posted by nasrules
of course it can. if the internet dies, so does p2p. until then, no. well jus move. look what hapnd when napster died. evry1 went sumwhere else . itll happen agen.

People will of course just keep switching programs, but on a side note, I think it would be possible for p2p to exist w/out the internet, it would just be harder to get programs.:tilted

[anarcus]

p2p will die. but only when there is somthing better...
i'm sure within the next couple of years there will be a new system based on the same pricipals, but operating in a completly different manor..

as internet conections improve, more ppl on-line & new software packages emerges i'm sure P2P will not be missed as the next evoltion occurs

[tipsterno1]

p2p will never die, people just swap, I come from napster through imesh - A/G - mopheus - kazaa - shareaza thats just 4 music. the donkey network for other stuff , thats just the way its is people move on as long as you can get the files you want (and share of course) no ones bothered what the name of the p2p program is !!! :playboy

[12345678910]

Judge: Kazaa can be sued in U.S. (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-980274.html?tag=fd_top)

This is the latest development in the case involving Sharman Networks and KaZaA.

I beleive this may have a major inpact on the future of the program.

If KaZaA is ever totally shut down, it's users will just migrate to other P2P programs like we have done in the past.

12345678910

[TipYourBartender]

How's this idea...

Imagine for a second that everything wrong with the record industry was changed.

Imagine that CD's were cheaper. That more money went to the artists. That there was no copy protection. That every reason people give about why the record industry and the RIAA sucks was gone.

Would P2P still be around?

[12345678910]

Originally posted by TipYourBartender
How's this idea...

Imagine for a second that everything wrong with the record industry was changed.

Imagine that CD's were cheaper. That more money went to the artists. That there was no copy protection. That every reason people give about why the record industry and the RIAA sucks was gone.

Would P2P still be around?

Yes.

P2P is about more than just music. P2P deals with software, videos, images, and documents.

Now, If you are just talking about music. Would P2P still be around?

Yes.

Most level headed people probably would change a little bit and would go out and by a cd to either support the artist because they receive more money for what they do or because they don't want to go through the hassle of trying to find a full album on a network.

But, a lot of people are in the P2P social realm because they like to "screw the big business" to say. Those people will not change no matter what the RIAA does. They like to get the music for free because they can. The only way I see P2P in music going away is if the RIAA decides to give cds away for free.

Peace,
12345678910

[DigitalJunkie]

1234567890,

I don't think ppl download music just because it's free! First, most of the times you get only one or few songs you like on a CD. Secondly, they like finding finding new artists or songs before they buy, if they can find it.

Record industry need to start selling singles instead of cds, have those bands go on tours, or look at promotional marketing materials as additional income. Or, record labels will just die.

But, p2p will not die!!!

[skunnk1]

If you break down P2P, and put aside all it's implications of just "downloading free stuff", it is just defined as computers trading data directly with one another without a central server.
A typical example would be like Windows workgroups that you would find in an office setting, except that we are sharing through a wide area Network.
Contrary to popular belief, it is not a new technology.It's actually quite primitive.
As long as computers can Network, we can always trade files.
In some of these appz ,central servers can be used to accelerate the search process but they can run without them, just not as efficiently.
If P2P applications are forced to be completly decentralized, the RIAA and Hollywood will totally fuct because they only way to shut down these Peer to Peer would be to outlaw computers and the Internet altogether, so anyway you look at it, we win!

[MoonMan]

In my opinion, the sheer notion of p2p dying is stupid.. because it's not possible. Be it new networks, harder to close protocols, IRC, etc. No one can really stop it, unless every Windows computer on Earth stops working.

By the way d-koolest, your avatar ROCKS man! I love it.

[Sephiroth]

Can it die? Yes but is the threat really the RIAA/MPAA and other trade groups? not really..

P2P has alot of applications other than file sharing and has a very ligitimate purpose it people and the warez community use it as their distribution method then that is all them.

If the Trade Groups could simply sue File Sharing out of existance they would have done so a long time ago.. Unless they can get legislation passed that would allow them to be more agressive and even a bit oppressive then they wont get much farther than they have allready.

If anything they will continue to harrass their potential customers with there bots sending in TOS letters to their ISP.. Or it bandwidth limit isp plans take off which i doubt they will.. People should avoid those like the plague.

I believe that there are other threats that go unlooked and some people probably dont even consider them a threat. That is 1. the misconception that open source offers legal benefits which when you get down to it doesnt offer much more advantages from getting sued and shut down than a closed source program.

2. That more programs will pop up and replace the past one.. Notice there has never been an exact clone of napster that existed since napstered was shut down. Every program has done something different and that is sort of the natual selection of p2p at work. No one is going to clone napster because that would be insane becaues the outcome would be the exact same as napster.

4. That everything in p2p must be free then its ok.. Look programs are made by developers and all the major advancements in P2P starting with napster were commerical ventures.. Hobby programs arent going to be able to make major advancements theres a limit to what one person can do, open source "community" developer is unrealible some times there can be alot of people working on it and it progresses fast other times it lags.. The last thing p2p needs is unstable on/off development..

5. Is people looking to exploit networks/users, programs to benefit themselves and these are the "Anti-p2p" companies, malicious program providers, cloners, some "hacks" and tweaks, and etc..

6. People thinking that file sharing is just about piracy.. That is bullshit. In the beginning and all through napster the last thing anyone wanted to do and what any true p2p fan wants to do is to starve their favorite band, actor(ess), or software company so they cant continue to make what people enjoy. This whole idea that p2p is just about "getting shit for free" comes directly from the RIAA and trade groups propoganda from the beginning and unfortantely some people actually believe it and are only helping the trade groups by demonizing P2P and limiting its potential for other things.

[overdo]

can p2p die? yes. will it? that depends on a few factors:
firstly what MS do with DRM and palladium
secondly how far ISPs in America, but perhaps more crucially in the other parts of the world, go in complying with copyright laws and blocking p2p services.
thirdly, the tracking of p2p users by the RIAA, MPAA etc and prosecuting or copyright offences.

i personally am more worried about the second as that is the immediate threat but the others aren't too far behind.

[skunnk1]

Unless the law makes ISP responsible for P2P content, they can block some users by request, but to police every user on their network would be an enormous and EXPENSIVE task to perform.
You'd suppose they can block uploading, but what about those that need to upload files onto their website.
Alot of them can and do limit bandwidth that's used for uploading.
They can close certain ports,but that leaves thousands more to open.
As far as DRM and Palladium are concerned, there are many people buying systems today, for the purpose of being able to download and share files.
Another company, such as Linux, could put out a home operating system without these limiting technologies which would put Microsoft behind.
If not, then the whole computer industry will go down the drain, because why buy this whole system if can't do anything with it?
Also I believe the RIAA will procesute a few people to make examples and scare everybody, but how cost effective will it be to turn it into a legal agency with thousands of court cases?

[Psilaxs]

What frightens me is, when/if kazaa dies off, having to move to an inferior network :(

[skunnk1]

"You can't sell anything to anybody if he is perfectly happy with what he has........... research and developement is an organized method of keeping everybody reasonably dissatisfied with what they have."


Charles Kettering-In 1933

I like that quote.

[mrhurtalot]

um you guys p2p cant really die at all since there isnt a central server


when you log on your pc acts as a server for you files and when you download files your kazzaa or whatever you use connects directly to that pc and d/ls it

napster died because your music files got uploaded to a server and others got music from it



if you have any ?S just pm me or what ever

[skunnk1]

mrhurtalot


That's what I've been trying to tell people all along, but no one believes me :(

[twuckDrifer]

I doubt P2P will die but,I am sure you will have to pay through the nose for bandwidth in the future. P2P networks will be limited to what people are willing to fork out for bandwidth.IMO

[Psilaxs]

Been alot of debate about this, But kazaa really isnt dectralized, (I hope it is) but would explain why it works so damned well.

Sadly i think they may be able to shut them down. Sharmen has had time on their side thus far, and are being IDIOTS for not taking the chance to fix this vulnerability.

[TipYourBartender]

Kazaa is NOT decentralized, in fact it is very much CENTRALIZED, much the same way Napster is.

Sorry kids!

[que-em]

P2P can be killed if it doesn't become more anonymous. The only way to stop it is at the ISP (ie. Verizon's case)

[Rickio]

No


peace

[Ken17625]

Its going to come down to the ISP. No doubt about it.

[d3ft0n3s]

Shareaza's G2 technology is going to dominate.

Shareaza might not be around forever but the technology for the overhauled gnutella will be..

Make your own opinions.

[Darth Bond]

They can charge for bandwidth, they can shut down the internet, they can sue us all but P2P will not die! As long as I can burn a disc and walk over to my buddy Steve's house and give him a disc and he gives me a disc, the spirit of P2P will never die!

ONWARD P2P SOLDIERS!

[metale]

P2P will never die. Its impossible that Internet die or something like that.

Peer to Peer is our future as "freestuff system" lovers.... this is the future and we must keep it, respect it, and enjoy it.

[NDGAARONDI]

That comment by that Judge in an earlier post....I really like to know how US law works coz it kinda isnt logical.

If they suggest they can sue Kazaa, who are based in Vanuatu - a British territory, then the RIAA attacks that are mentioned then no doubt the RIAA will attack people from non-US territory.

They shouldnt do this because then other countries will sue the RIAA itself on the same grounds that the Judge has said!

There isnt that much law in Computer Law in England and Wales, so I can launch an attack that isnt specified in the Computer Misuse Act 1990 and all other later additions, to RIAA and I won't be a criminal in England and as far as I'm concerned, cant be sued for damages from an American based company.

I'll have to check this up...

Oh and Australia's law is so similar to English saw since we still own them and they have the same court structures etc.

Look at http://news.com.com/2100-1023-971086.html

To try it in England would be a better choice.

[Theinfamousone]

I can see P2P dying (as we know it). First of all, if they find out a way to block computers from copying CDs, then you can't go to your friend Steve's house and have a burn party.

I foresee two things happening that can actually effect P2P. One is that ISP's start charging such outrageous prices that very few people can afford them. Or they will all have some seriously low limit so that movie trading and what not is impossible. And then Kazaa, which is in my opinion the only P2P worth having (besides maybe DC) will become like all the other networks, full of so many leechers that everything becomes clogged up like Winmx and Gnutella, and queues will be so rampant (even worse than they are now in those two programs) that they will essentially be worthless.

The second scenario is a little brighter. ISPs themselves stop dying and/or losing 50+ billion dollars a year (as is the case with atleast AOL, I'm sure many others), they find a better way to connect computers to the internet, they get cheaper, faster, uploads and downloads, and there will be some kind of ruling that clients like Kazaa aren't accomplices to copyright laws being committed, or there is a program like ES5 that is just unstoppable. In combination with the much cheaper rates and faster speeds, people will be able to transfer whole DVD and CD images in the time it takes to download an mp3 and things could really get ugly for the RIAA. Personally I'd like to see bands open up web pages (or just use Amazon.com) with paypal accounts so that people can support them directly, and that's all there is to it. I bet most of them with any talent would be instant milliionaires. They could easily pay for their studio time.

Edit: Some of you may not believe me that they would become millionaires. Let's say 1/20 of even some no name band like The Ataris fans gave them $10, that's $1,000,000 right there (assuming they have 2,000,000 fans, which I bet they have more like 20,000,000.)

[NDGAARONDI]

Theinfamousone, you are assuming the scenario for USA alone right?

Because as you know some countries won't listen to US courts, England is actually one of them, Latvia is another...so it might die in America but it wont be the same throughout the world!

[Siskabush]

It seems canada isnt on thier hitlist yet

May file sharing live forever in the country i love!

[Theinfamousone]

Originally posted by NDGAARONDI
Theinfamousone, you are assuming the scenario for USA alone right?

Because as you know some countries won't listen to US courts, England is actually one of them, Latvia is another...so it might die in America but it wont be the same throughout the world!

I'm talking about survival of the fittest. I don't know what ruling you are talking about that has anything to do with my post is. I can foresee those two scenarios as I look at what is happening in the world.

ISP's being too expensive for residentual areas as far as I can tell is already happening in your precious UK (NTL). excite@home which was my previous cable provider died, NTL, Telewest are both floundering just to name some in the UK. I know many others are doing badly. In the NTL thread, one guy said he had to change his ISP 4 times because they kept going bankrupt.

It all depends on how cheap internet connections are in the future. If they keep getting more expensive, less people will be able to afford it, therefore more queues, more clogs, less files, less P2P until it's finally worthless. The fact that the RIAA is prosecuting people for hosting hubs, and polluting the networks doesn't help either.

If they get cheaper somehow, the complete oppositte will happen and P2P will be completely unstoppable. Obviously it's anybody's guess as to how far these copyright lawsuits will go, but I honestly don't think the UK will defend filesharing if deep pocketed corporations start throwing bills around.

[NDGAARONDI]

No NTL is going bankrupt because it's a sh!t company. The customer services got closed down near my house bacause the customer service was sooo poor. And my mum was with NTL but they kept on sending bills for us for the TV yet we changed to BT. Then NTL threatened court action, so I told my mum to let them take court action. No action has yet been taken!

We gave enough notice etc. as stated in the contract. and some of NTL's addresses no longer existed. NTL is only one ISP out the thousands that serve English customers.

The RIAA has NO jurisdiction overseas, the RIAA think they can, but when they say about treaties etc. the states hasnt kept to it's treaties it signed to itself, so who cares.

The fact that I said that in English law that, if a developer of something has made it possible for legal reasons to use it, then those developers cannot held responsible for users illegal actions. If we all took it to the extreme. England would start sueing American companies for allowing you people to tape off the TV, if that was the case a few years ago. Because it wasnt that long ago that taping off something from the TV needed permission from the copyright owner first. Since it was JVC who invented the VHS.

As for ISPs there are plenty more that are doing well. I should imagine BT are one of them, Freeserve too.

Fact is if this Berman Bill passes and the RIAA attack English computers there will be an outrage here and there are plenty of good computer geeks out there that could take the RIAA's systems down....

[CompuGeek]

Nobody's posted to this thread for a few days but I wanted to slip my post in anyway: :sw

If Microsoft comes up with unbreakable DRM then the RIAA and the MPAA and all other media industries will release all their new movies/music/software only in that protected format. If that happens then no one will be able to burn CDs, let alone share anything via P2P.

[overdo]

If Microsoft comes up with unbreakable DRM

the key words in that phrase are :
IF - relating to the future, which is always uncertain
Microsoft - a company notorious for making software with loopholes
Unbreakable - reminds me of the Windows XP activiation hype

seeing as the next level of DRM is intertwined with Palladium, which is hardware based i think that it will not take off. who is going to go and buy a 3.5Ghz P4 with Palladium, if they already have a 2Ghz non palladium pc?? also hardware can be overriden by using mod-chips etc which may circumentvent palladium.

See this (http://comment.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t479-s2118863,00.html) story if u want more information.

[CompuGeek]

Overdo,

Thanks for the link. I'll use that story in my copyright law project I'm doing for my New Media class.

[Theinfamousone]

Originally posted by NDGAARONDI
No NTL is going bankrupt because it's a sh!t company. The customer services got closed down near my house bacause the customer service was sooo poor. And my mum was with NTL but they kept on sending bills for us for the TV yet we changed to BT. Then NTL threatened court action, so I told my mum to let them take court action. No action has yet been taken!

We gave enough notice etc. as stated in the contract. and some of NTL's addresses no longer existed. NTL is only one ISP out the thousands that serve English customers.

The RIAA has NO jurisdiction overseas, the RIAA think they can, but when they say about treaties etc. the states hasnt kept to it's treaties it signed to itself, so who cares.

The fact that I said that in English law that, if a developer of something has made it possible for legal reasons to use it, then those developers cannot held responsible for users illegal actions. If we all took it to the extreme. England would start sueing American companies for allowing you people to tape off the TV, if that was the case a few years ago. Because it wasnt that long ago that taping off something from the TV needed permission from the copyright owner first. Since it was JVC who invented the VHS.

As for ISPs there are plenty more that are doing well. I should imagine BT are one of them, Freeserve too.

Fact is if this Berman Bill passes and the RIAA attack English computers there will be an outrage here and there are plenty of good computer geeks out there that could take the RIAA's systems down....

It's really out of the hands of the RIAA to stop P2P. I agree with you there. They'll never be able to make a drop in the bucket of a difference. The more opposition they give P2P, the stronger it gets. It's been said "there's no such thing as bad publicity" and with Napster, that was VERY true.

AOL, which is probably biggest ISP there is (even my host family in France uses AOL, which I found ironic seeing that it's called "America Online") is losing 55+ billion dollars a year. For P2P's sake, I hope you are right, and there are a lot of ISPs doing well, it's the high speed ones that seem to be losing lots of money. All that bandwidth is very expensive, all of the service for the cable guys to go around and install it when you can get it for 19.95 for your first 6 months and what not, they are just losing lots of money. In 10 years, I hope every residentual connection is equivalent to a T3, and any TV show/movie you've ever heard of will be easily available (much like music is now).

[isus]

if p2p dies, i say we start mailing people cd's filled with mp3's. you copy the mp3's to your hard drive, then burn a cd with more mp3's, and mail that to another person who does the same thing. lol.

[Theinfamousone]

Yeah chain letter P2Ping

[ThePillarOfAutumn]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

IF IT DOES I WILL HATE GOD FOR TAKING MY P2P

O WAIT _ I DONT BELIEVE IN THAT SHIAT

:shy

[Siskabush]

Lets face it. If P2P dies, the record (and maybe the movie) industries are gonna fall with us.

[Winphuk]

Originally posted by Theinfamousone
Yeah chain letter P2Ping

Lol!!! P2Ping :)