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View Full Version : Speed Camera Slay Fuels Debate In Arizona



1cooldude
April 29th, 2009, 06:48 PM
The debate over the first statewide speed camera enforcement program in the nation has reached a boiling point following the fatal shooting of a camera operator.

Critics of Arizona's program condemned the killing but vow they'll continue to fight what they call unfair and overly intrusive government. Supporters of the program say camera opponents have inflamed the public, and that the speed cameras have made highways safer.


Doug Georgianni, 51, was killed on April 19, as he operated a speed-enforcement van on a Phoenix freeway. Thomas Patrick Destories, a 68-year-old Phoenix man, is being held in Maricopa County jail on a first-degree murder charge in the death. He has declined to comment.

According to court documents, Georgianni was sitting in the van when Destories allegedly pulled around the vehicle and fired multiple gunshots, reports CBS affiliate KPHO-TV in Phoenix.

Authorities haven't said what they believe the motive might be, but said the two men had never met. Many simply assume the killing was the latest and most extreme backlash against Arizona's photo-enforcement program.

Arizonans have used sticky notes, Silly String and even a pickax to sabotage the cameras since September when they began snapping photos of highway speeders driving 11 mph or more over the speed limit.

State lawmakers have proposed two bills to do away with the cameras, and three separate citizens groups are targeting them in initiatives for the 2010 ballot.

"The conversation on everyone's mind in Arizona is the photo radar killing. That's what everyone is talking about," said Shawn Dow, a volunteer with the citizens group CameraFRAUD.com.

CameraFRAUD.com is the largest and most organized of the groups going after the cameras. Its initiative would ban photo-enforcement cameras throughout Arizona, including those in the statewide program and those run by individual municipalities, such as red light cameras in Tempe.

Dow said the Arizona Department of Public Safety and camera operator RedFlex Traffic Systems Inc. put Georgianni in danger by having him in a marked law enforcement vehicle even though he was a civilian.

"They're putting these people in marked police vehicles that are civilians that have no training, no way to defend themselves," Dow said. "We should have trained police officers - cops, not cameras."

DPS spokesman Lt. James Warriner said the department is working with RedFlex to decide how the vans will operate in the future, and that they may be unmanned.

The speed vans were pulled from Arizona freeways Monday; fixed cameras are still operating.

Warriner said critics have blamed his agency for the killing "when all we're doing is administering a program that was mandated by state Legislature and the former governor.

"Because of (critics') vocalness, you could almost say they've led to this, too - because of their protests, the encouragement of people to strike out," he said.

Warriner said Georgianni's killing will not stop photo enforcement.

Karen Finley, president and chief executive officer of RedFlex, said in a statement that the company is being "deliberative and prudent" in its review of establishing criteria to redeploy mobile speed cameras. She declined to comment further.

Republican Rep. Sam Crump of Anthem, who is seeking to ban speed cameras on state highways, condemned Georgianni's killing.

"While we don't know at this time what the motives were for this senseless killing, many have understandably speculated that it was due to anger against the speed cameras," he said in a statement the day after the killing. "To the extent there is any truth to that, I call on all individuals to reduce the war of words on this topic. Whatever the motives for this crime were, there is absolutely no justification for such a heinous act."

The photo-enforcement program was launched under former Democratic Gov. Janet Napolitano.

Civil violations are punishable by a fine and surcharges totaling $181. Through Jan. 31, 34,000 motorists had paid their tickets.

Tyler Bennett, a 23-year-old Glendale resident who recently got a photo radar ticket on a Phoenix-area freeway, said he's against the speed cameras but he was "dumbfounded" when he heard about the killing.

"That really kind of hit me, to be honest," he said. "It's kind of fun to dog on the whole photo radar thing, but this whole thing is completely different."

He said he doesn't think DPS, RedFlex or critics of photo enforcement are to blame - just the person who pulled the trigger.


Source... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/27/national/main4970751.shtml)

mountain_rage
April 29th, 2009, 07:28 PM
Seriously, what is wrong with photo radar. You drive the speed limit and you don't get a ticket, its simple. Everyone who has been given a ticket deserved it, its not like they were not speeding. Everyone who is against speed cameras are undoubtedly speeders, they deserve their tickets, and their is no reason to not have speed cameras.

Signa
April 29th, 2009, 07:48 PM
Seriously, what is wrong with photo radar. You drive the speed limit and you don't get a ticket, its simple. Everyone who has been given a ticket deserved it, its not like they were not speeding. Everyone who is against speed cameras are undoubtedly speeders, they deserve their tickets, and their is no reason to not have speed cameras.
Uh no. I got that ticked back in July (issued by a cop, fortunately) but I didn't deserve it. It is all just a money-grab. Cameras are even less compassionate as they don't allow for any extenuating circumstances. I'm not trying to be all "big brother" paranoid, but it wouldn't take much to convert those cameras into something even more watchful in the future.

mountain_rage
April 29th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Uh no. I got that ticked back in July (issued by a cop, fortunately) but I didn't deserve it. It is all just a money-grab. Cameras are even less compassionate as they don't allow for any extenuating circumstances. I'm not trying to be all "big brother" paranoid, but it wouldn't take much to convert those cameras into something even more watchful in the future.

What excuse do you have for driving 11mph over the speed limit? Or if you are going by Canadian cameras that are less forgiving 11km/h? You can also contest the tickets at an office, and many people do successfully if they rarely get them, and have a reasonable reason for driving over the limit.

Signa
April 29th, 2009, 11:04 PM
I wasn't driving 11 over, he nailed me at the sign where the speed changed, and then decided to catch up with me a mile later so he could say I was in the new speed zone. I was going the speed limit in the new zone.

I also disputed it, but the judge just wanted his money. I brought pictures, and he wouldn't even look at them.

mountain_rage
April 30th, 2009, 11:33 AM
I wasn't driving 11 over, he nailed me at the sign where the speed changed, and then decided to catch up with me a mile later so he could say I was in the new speed zone. I was going the speed limit in the new zone.

I also disputed it, but the judge just wanted his money. I brought pictures, and he wouldn't even look at them.

Well than you were screwed over, the laws in my area stipulates that they can't set up by signs. Whenever there were questionable placements of camera's, the tickets were overturned and new rules put in place.

1cooldude
April 30th, 2009, 04:03 PM
What excuse do you have for driving 11mph over the speed limit? Or if you are going by Canadian cameras that are less forgiving 11km/h? You can also contest the tickets at an office, and many people do successfully if they rarely get them, and have a reasonable reason for driving over the limit.

While this may take the discussion off course, I want you to watch this video and tell me if you still stand by your original text?I am not trying to paint the cops with the same brush and I think we know how each one of us feels about "speeding" but this is just one example of police over-reacting. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc&ytsession=t4pA6Xry3MyeY6tyDjrzHIE5Q3OCar4SRWJ2W-doClZPYmHOjbqTLCyIlBkXpi8OyDBHoR7Aamzj1D9H540n0ZgO KUetNE85ppZFrEJqoa9GsKNR2emMDtTF6NC7rX9LaMN_6Gttp4 ed7uew4_DkTXfpT6OUzVTKG7aNmVY7JJX_LOB8JwhEKwpgAxye PzU5cFBe16Bf4SMydTpf5orr-kKG52U-XxCO7F-TifhO12RfX96mbJl_MlFrD-KXcn441DGy_EDdgJFxaGn0g8h9nbn3zAWi90b9) Am I wrong?


http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=46423

mountain_rage
April 30th, 2009, 04:43 PM
While this may take the discussion off course, I want you to watch this video and tell me if you still stand by your original text?I am not trying to paint the cops with the same brush and I think we know how each one of us feels about "speeding" but this is just one example of police over-reacting. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc&ytsession=t4pA6Xry3MyeY6tyDjrzHIE5Q3OCar4SRWJ2W-doClZPYmHOjbqTLCyIlBkXpi8OyDBHoR7Aamzj1D9H540n0ZgO KUetNE85ppZFrEJqoa9GsKNR2emMDtTF6NC7rX9LaMN_6Gttp4 ed7uew4_DkTXfpT6OUzVTKG7aNmVY7JJX_LOB8JwhEKwpgAxye PzU5cFBe16Bf4SMydTpf5orr-kKG52U-XxCO7F-TifhO12RfX96mbJl_MlFrD-KXcn441DGy_EDdgJFxaGn0g8h9nbn3zAWi90b9) Am I wrong?


http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=46423

Both individuals were being ignorant and not listening. The officer lacked tack, and the man ignored direct orders. The video does not change my view on speeding tickets either, he legitimately may have deserved the ticket. I'm not sure what the laws are for refusing to sign a ticket, but if the law states its arrest, than the officer did nothing wrong. Sadly if that is the case, the law needs to be changed, possibly to a larger fine, or even not requiring a signature at all. You can object to a speeding ticket all you want, if the officer doesn't agree fight it in court.

The officer did not need to use the taser, sadly the training many officers have received gives them a mentality that its not a lethal weapon, when it should be classified as such. Personally I blame the manufacturers since they marketed the weapon as non lethal. The government should of done their own testing on the matter too, so they are also to blame.

The only other fault fault with the officer was his inability to cool down the emotions during the confrontation, sadly that is something that is difficult to teach. Had the officer been properly trained the gentleman may have listened to the officer and not caused the need for the officer to physically detain him. When an officer arrests you, you don't walk back to your vehicle, you listen. The officer should however have grabbed the guy rather than taser him, but again I think thats because of how he perceives the lethality of a taser. He also lacked judgement for the safety of the man he was arresting since he easily could of fallen into oncomming traffic.

So the officer screwed up, the guy screwed up, and in the end its a nasty situation. The laws need to be clarified or changed and training improved. Government should relabel tazers as deadly weapons, and classify them just under a firearm in terms of leathality. Tickets should be given without the need of a signature, if a person refuses the ticket they simply get a bigger ticket in the mail when they have yet to pay the fine in the given days. During a traffic stop the only reason for arrest should be due to other illegal activity, or the refusal to show ID. With that said, I don't blame the officer, but his training, and the laws. But it really had nothing to do with speeding tickets.

Signa
April 30th, 2009, 05:40 PM
In my state, they don't require you to sign the ticket. You sign it when you send it in.

While you aren't wrong MR, I think you are being a little to ridged in your opinion of this situation. There are many circumstances where a speeding ticket isn't warranted, and I don't think you would like it much if you got into one of those. Cops love to be dicks, and if we are the ones paying their salary, we should get a little more respect than what they give us.

mountain_rage
April 30th, 2009, 07:23 PM
In my state, they don't require you to sign the ticket. You sign it when you send it in.

While you aren't wrong MR, I think you are being a little to ridged in your opinion of this situation. There are many circumstances where a speeding ticket isn't warranted, and I don't think you would like it much if you got into one of those. Cops love to be dicks, and if we are the ones paying their salary, we should get a little more respect than what they give us.

Although I agree some cops can be dicks, I think in many circumstances people bring it upon themselves. Also I find people complain a lot about issues in which they know the risks, and simply got caught. This is just my experience, and my observation from the laws in my area, but I've also found that in most circumstances where the enforcement seemed unjustified the ruling was in favor of society rather than police officers. For example, people were getting ticketed for speeding in a construction zone when no workers were present, so now the law states that the enforcement can only apply if the construction warrants the slower speed, or if workers are present and all fines were reversed. Another example, my province stipulates that mobile speed cameras can only be placed in certain areas, stationary ones I think need to go through a review body, and officers with radar guns can't be posted a certain distance from signs, near hills, etc.

Many cops are idiots and many are not, sadly there is a shortage of people wanting to be officers, an increase in violence against officers, and from what I can tell, an overall belief that officers have no authority. All those circumstances have created a very defensive, paranoid, and overly aggressive police force. Its not the ideal situation, but I see it from both perspectives, and quite frankly everyone is to blame for the current predicament, and I don't see a real way to fix things right now. So for now, if a cop is being an ass to you just swallow your pride, take their idiocy, and report them through the proper channels when possible. There is no point in pissing off an overly arrogant cop, or even demanding certain treatment, it will only make your situation worse. If the cop is a real idiot you can even sue the city for his misconduct, in the end there are other ways to make your point other than to bitch at a cop on the side of the road.

Signa
May 1st, 2009, 04:09 AM
It was great watching that video of that guy being tased. My brother's roommate's brother just had a run-in with the cops at my brother's house, and he got treated TOO nice. I feel bad for the cops dealing with this guy's bullshit, and it's no wonder why some are such dicks. I still feel worse for the guy that got tased, but as you said MR, he did kind of earn it too. I just wish cops were better at responding apropiately to the the people they are dealing with. Too often it seems like they are using a sledgehammer to fix a pocketwatch, and in my brother's roommate's brother's case, a feather to break concrete.

drtoker
May 1st, 2009, 11:59 AM
The issue isn't that you are speeding or not, the issue is we have untrained civillians acting as law enforcement. Add to that the fact that it has been proven that these things are not reliable in the least. There are too many factors to rely on 1 camera with no one else to back up its findings (such as a cop on a normal traffic stop).

Most people here in my state that fought the photo radar van tickets won, and we dont use them anymore. Big waste of time and money. We only have cameras in intersections to catch people running red lights now, at least in my city, and thats fine by me.

mountain_rage
May 1st, 2009, 06:21 PM
The issue isn't that you are speeding or not, the issue is we have untrained civillians acting as law enforcement. Add to that the fact that it has been proven that these things are not reliable in the least. There are too many factors to rely on 1 camera with no one else to back up its findings (such as a cop on a normal traffic stop).

Most people here in my state that fought the photo radar van tickets won, and we dont use them anymore. Big waste of time and money. We only have cameras in intersections to catch people running red lights now, at least in my city, and thats fine by me.

If the camera is faulty, the department should be able to detect it using statistics. If they don't have that ability, than clearly they are incompetent. Anyway, my city, if the camera is faulty, they will reverse the tickets for everyone. So I still don't see the cameras as faulty. I also don't understand why sitting in a van requires training, the guy is just there to try and prevent vandalism. Its a security position, should anyone vandalize the camera, he calls the cops.