The God Who Wasn't There

[Mels_Smileys45]

The God Who Wasn't There (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455507/usercomments)

I just found this film. I am surprised I never heard of this one. Anyone else watched it? I have skimmed it over and am about to sit down and check it out. Seems like perhaps this is what Religulous should have been but I will have to wait and see what the message of the film turns out to be.

"Documentary filmmaker Brian Flemming examines the Bible and discusses the history of early Christianity, raising doubts as to whether the New Testament personage Jesus ever really existed. Flemming examines the similarity of the Jesus story to other savior myths of the time and points to inexplicable gaps in early Christian history that combine to shed doubt on the Bible's Jesus story."

[mountain_rage]

If this is the documentary I saw on tv, than its a brilliant piece. Stayed up till around 3 am watching it because it was so well produced. If not, I should find out what the documentary was, because it was really interesting.

It talked about other messiahs of the time, dead sea scrolls, the creation of the bible, etc. Really just showed how Christianity was one among hundreds of other religions making the same claims around their founder.

[1cooldude]

Great movie for those who can handle the truth.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Great movie for those who can handle the truth.

Yes, I agree. It would be great if everyone could watch this with an open mind but rule number one is to not think and just accept faith instead of truth and what you can know 100% by observation and/or with research. As smart as humans are its totally amazing how outlandish stories are considered factual history with his help. It kinda sucks living in this time because you know in the future they will look back on us and think he were all idiots. Primitive as cavemen but shit, at least cavemen believed in what they saw in the world around them so they were actually a notch above the Bible thumpers. Its so sad that people have been held back by religions for so long. I can't even imagine how advanced we would be if no one would have never made up religion to govern the people. It had the best of intentions but the concept had a downside that no one could of ever foreseen.

[mountain_rage]

Yes, I agree. It would be great if everyone could watch this with an open mind but rule number one is to not think and just accept faith instead of truth and what you can know 100% by observation and/or with research. As smart as humans are its totally amazing how outlandish stories are considered factual history with his help. It kinda sucks living in this time because you know in the future they will look back on us and think he were all idiots. Primitive as cavemen but shit, at least cavemen believed in what they saw in the world around them so they were actually a notch above the Bible thumpers. Its so sad that people have been held back by religions for so long. I can't even imagine how advanced we would be if no one would have never made up religion to govern the people. It had the best of intentions but the concept had a downside that no one could of ever foreseen.

Actually if you wait long enough the religious will be back in power. The groups having the most children are the Omish, chasidic jews, and just generally the uber religious who believe its their duty.

[Drew Wilson]

Studies have shown that the religiously devoted have a better chance at surviving near fatal experiences.

Also, a strong case can be made that religion also gave European societies a structure and that future social structures were based on the Catholic religious structure. (Pope/President, Bishops/Congressmen, knights/mayors... well, the last one is a sorta, but do the math :P )

Religion also paved the way for huge commercial economic boosters. Name a time of the year that consumers buy more than Christmas - what's suppose to be a Christian (and a few others) holiday last I checked.

What I personally find annoying is the fact that the scientific community loves harping on incidences like when the Catholic church attacked Galileo, continually bashing the religious, then wonder why those who are religious get ticked off at them afterwards.

I think a truce between the scientific community and the religiously devoted is long overdue... not that I can see it happening any time soon. Accept the fact that there is a difference of opinion here.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Seems to me the religious will always attack anyone who doesn't believe the same as they do. Religion has killed far more people than any other belief. Ive never seen a war based on scientific differences.

I have no way to prove it but I suspect that without religion man would be far more advanced than we are today. We would of probably had a lot less war. Religion promotes sexism, racial hate, the hate of anyone who thinks differently and murder. It teaches people to not think for themselves and to let the leaders tell them what it is they should be thinking about. This is unhealthy and paves the way for tyrants to take advantage of the religious people.


Religion also paved the way for huge commercial economic boosters

What does that have to do with truth and whats right? Before it was a Christian holiday it was a time of year to get buck wild and celebrate. Over the last 200 years its been morphed into an ugly, greedy, very stressful time of year.


What I personally find annoying is the fact that the scientific community loves harping on incidences like when the Catholic church attacked Galileo...


Give me a break! What about the religious sect that harp on people riding dinosaurs? How the Earth is 6,000 years old. How the Earth is the center of the Universe, is flat and has the sun rotating around it? The misinformation has been fed to the believers for many years and anyone who questioned it either went to prison or was killed. At times the religious have been more scary than Satan.

I question everything and Religion just doesn't hold water. I have had so many people get MAD at me for not thinking like they do and thats one of the main problems with religion.

[mountain_rage]

Studies have shown that the religiously devoted have a better chance at surviving near fatal experiences.

Also, a strong case can be made that religion also gave European societies a structure and that future social structures were based on the Catholic religious structure. (Pope/President, Bishops/Congressmen, knights/mayors... well, the last one is a sorta, but do the math :P )

Religion also paved the way for huge commercial economic boosters. Name a time of the year that consumers buy more than Christmas - what's suppose to be a Christian (and a few others) holiday last I checked.

What I personally find annoying is the fact that the scientific community loves harping on incidences like when the Catholic church attacked Galileo, continually bashing the religious, then wonder why those who are religious get ticked off at them afterwards.

I think a truce between the scientific community and the religiously devoted is long overdue... not that I can see it happening any time soon. Accept the fact that there is a difference of opinion here.

Science has never been and is not against religion. No scientists goes about research to prove that god does not exists, or that religion is wrong. They are researching a theory they developed and measuring it against data. The war against religion is either due to advances in knowledge which we should not stop developing, or from pure wedge division tactics undertaken by the Discovery Institute. Scientist could care less what religion thinks, so long as it does not affect scientific research or knowledge.

As for the benefits that religion brought, so what, that was in the past. They helped develop modern society at a time where the alternative was crap. The same realities are not present today. All the structures built by religion are present in society today regardless of the presence of religion, and in some ways religion is hindering our ability to advance modern society.

Edited the last paragraph has some messed up english in there.

[Drew Wilson]

Seems to me the religious will always attack anyone who doesn't believe the same as they do.


rule number one is to not think and just accept faith instead of truth

With all due respect, I can't help but note a hint of irony between two of your posts here.

On a different POV, the main purpose of athiesm is to say that religious beliefs that have dieties is wrong (didn't you hear about the Athiest advertising campaign on buses in Britain and Canada?)

Additionally, man kind has been whacking each other in head throughout their entire existance. World War 1 started because the economy of Germany was in tatters. The German mark became completely useless and people where carrying a days pay out of plants in giant briefcases. A political leader emerged and said that he'd get Germany back on it's feet. Then he proceeded to attack other countries.

World War 2, France was occupied and Germany and Japan presented a very real threat to the rest of the world.

Cuban Missile crises, IIRC, was because a country was building arms that scared the US.

Before you use the War on Terror, 90% of muslims have full on out denounced Osama Bin Laden. The war in Iraq was because Iraq had oil.


Religion has killed far more people than any other belief. Ive never seen a war based on scientific differences.

That might be true, but wars have been sprung out of land disputes, politics, and probably the second biggest reason, money and power.

Religion has been used in war, no doubt, but there are other reasons war has errupted throughout the centuries.


I have no way to prove it but I suspect that without religion man would be far more advanced than we are today. We would of probably had a lot less war.

I don't think it's possible to prove either way on that point. This is because there is no basis for comparison because there's only one history that we are aware of.


Religion promotes sexism

I doubt it's the only thing that has promoted sexism.


racial hate

Religious extremes perhapse. Religion in general? Then why does Christianity exist in Africa?


the hate of anyone who thinks differently

I've already mentioned counterarguements to this.


and murder.

I can't speak for other religions on this, but I believe there is a thing called the ten commandments that would dispute this. There are very few, if any, religions that endorse murder. Then again, human kind is far from perfect.


It teaches people to not think for themselves and to let the leaders tell them what it is they should be thinking about.

That almost sounds like the argument for the ideology of anarchists actually where leaders should be dissolved into society and let the people rule in their own way. But anyway, I do recall that politics does the exact same thing.


This is unhealthy and paves the way for tyrants to take advantage of the religious people.

There was an old saying about how power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.


What does that have to do with truth and whats right?

What was it you said about how religion forces people to disagree with people who don't agree again?


Before it was a Christian holiday it was a time of year to get buck wild and celebrate. Over the last 200 years its been morphed into an ugly, greedy, very stressful time of year.

...and if I remember right, commercialism did do a good job at doing this too.



Give me a break! What about the religious sect that harp on people riding dinosaurs?

I am not aware of a religion that argued this. Which one is it?


How the Earth is 6,000 years old.

If this is directed at Christians, the Bible doesn't actually give an age to the Earth.


How the Earth is the center of the Universe, is flat and has the sun rotating around it? The misinformation has been fed to the believers for many years and anyone who questioned it either went to prison or was killed.

I agree that the Catholic church had become quite corrupt. In fact, the religion I believe in had a leader that tacked arguments against the Catholic church on their door (which was quite ballsy at the time)


At times the religious have been more scary than Satan.

...which is your opinion. Kinda broad IMO.


I question everything and Religion just doesn't hold water.

...and you are free to do so. IIRC, we both live in free* countries.


I have had so many people get MAD at me for not thinking like they do and thats one of the main problems with religion.

You have chosen an emotional topic, you realize this, right?

*Free until the government chooses to adopt the Australian model and censor free speech online too which has been going on all year this year and laster year.

[Drew Wilson]

Science has never been and is not against religion. No scientists goes about research to prove that god does not exists, or that religion is wrong. They are researching a theory they developed and measuring it against data.

Fair point. I know that in Canada, there was a bit of an uproar over the fact that the head of science and research refuses to spell out if he was relgious or not (Well, I didn't research this fully, but that's what I've been hearing) but that's beside the point.


The war against religion is either due to advances in knowledge which we should not stop developing, or from pure wedge division tactics undertaken by the Discovery Institute. Scientist could care less what religion thinks, so long as it does not affect scientific research or knowledge.

Again, it's a good point. Religious beliefs should almost never be allowed to get in the way of science and research (almost because science can be distorted to do some sick and twisted things, though I'm not really aware of any contemporary examples of this)


As for the benefits that religion brought, so what, that was in the past. They helped develop modern society at a time where the alternative is crap.

I hope you are not arguing that we should turn a blind eye to the past as well as all the lessons that can be learned because there's plenty of lessons to be learned by studying history including what can be learned by studying the great deppression to solve todays economic crises.


All the structures built be religion are not present in society regardless of the presence of religion, and in some ways religion is hindering our ability to advance modern society.

I'll agree that there are cases where religion has been in the way of the advancement of knowledge, but I would think there is a place in society for religion.

However, I disagree that the structures based on religion no longer exist in todays society. There are plenty of laws today that are based on religious ideology. Don't kill being one obvious example. Different, yes, completely separate ways of thinking? Doubt it.

[milk man]

Science can't "prove" god "doesn't" exist. Religious people take this as meaning that god "does" exist not that their really isn't any scientific evidence one way or the other.

There is "however" much scientific evidence that Religion itself is completely wrong. I don't know whether there is a god or not but Jesus was not a god and if their is a god he is nothing what religious people make him out to be.

The God that Wasn't There is superb. Although there are a few assumptions that may or may not be totally accurate in general it is astoundingly close to what I have read and studied. Recommended

[carpefile]

This a "preaching to the choir" type of movie. It seeks to validate and reinforce the beliefs held by atheists and agnostics, and it does.

It certainly isn't going to change the beliefs of those with a religious bent.

I like Penn Jillette's way of explaining atheism to religious people.
He says everyone, including religious people, are all atheists up to a point. Every religion dismisses all other Gods but their own. Christians don't believe in Hindu gods, Jews don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah, etc.
Atheists just go one god further. :)

[shawners]

Yes, I agree. It would be great if everyone could watch this with an open mind but rule number one is to not think and just accept faith instead of truth and what you can know 100% by observation and/or with research. As smart as humans are its totally amazing how outlandish stories are considered factual history with his help. It kinda sucks living in this time because you know in the future they will look back on us and think he were all idiots. Primitive as cavemen but shit, at least cavemen believed in what they saw in the world around them so they were actually a notch above the Bible thumpers. Its so sad that people have been held back by religions for so long. I can't even imagine how advanced we would be if no one would have never made up religion to govern the people. It had the best of intentions but the concept had a downside that no one could of ever foreseen.

Then if you ever get married, or so, you be a hypocrite since its a religion based ceremony. I guess your parents choosing your life be because they valued it and must of sided with being right with God then aborting it.

DNA cant be manipulated or create an evolution with everything changing to adapt.. Caveman once believed that fire was evil or magic.. They also evolved to believe the Earth is flat..

Because of having faith they took the steps to discover America.. Fled for religion beliefs and because they believed in God that they found courage..

What are you living for?? Is their a better life after this one or is this it?? If this is it, just shoot yourself in the head.. I mean your not going to hell.. Because that be foolish, why live with the pain and bad economy that this life puts you through?

Explain how each country and ethnic background is made from a fish who crawled on to water?? Each having a language and a culture of their own? How come this world is more abundant with life then any other planet? Big bang theory is what you believe is still a theory.

I have a very open mind, your mind is closed off and some how you will believe in man then of God.. If we didnt have Christianity, then we be full of sin.. Full of sin will damage lives, family and you above all else knows it. Why you think kids do the things they do?? They have no fear of God or believe in listening to parents or respecting them.

I seen many shows that talk about how God can do this and that and why their isnt one... How 9-11 happened and where was God.. Where was man? We had the warnings, it was men who flown the plane into the buildings. Were here to educate and pretty soon their is going to be a judgement day and their is nothing that will save you unless your prepared.

[carpefile]

That's all sort of ridiculous. Marriage is an expression of lasting love, it can be religious, but not necessarily. The concept of law is also based upon religious beginnings, does that mean if we don't believe in religion we are lawless?

Why would I need a God to tell me I shouldn't kill my unborn child? or that people shouldn't just go around killing other people?
That's not religion, its common sense to anyone with an ounce of compassion.

And why exactly would someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife want to shoot themselves in the head?
If you believe this life is all you get, it makes sense that you would make the very most you can of it, make it last as long as possible, certainly not cut it short.

The rest of your rant, involving the development of language and cultures distinctly different by region, or the circumstances of abundant life on this planet, are topics of science.

For real though, I have plenty of respect for people of faith.
I admire the ability to make that leap beyond logical evidence and simply believe, so strongly, in the unknowable.

I don't think its too much to expect the same respect for people who believe differently.

[mountain_rage]

I know your comment was not directed towards me, but as an atheist I felt a little offended by your assumptions. Sorry if I misunderstood your points, I think you neglected to reread your post.


Then if you ever get married, or so, you be a hypocrite since its a religion based ceremony. I guess your parents choosing your life be because they valued it and must of sided with being right with God then aborting it. Marriage has become a cultural practice. In fact it predates Christianity so I don't see what point you are trying to make? Are you going to reject marriage because other religions, many that are pagan, also practiced marriage? People get married in order to secure a bond, financial advantages, etc. It gives certain individuals social advantage, emotional security and other benefits not associated to religion. As for abortion, non religious people are not all for abortion, you are unfairly generalizing a huge portion of the population.



DNA cant be manipulated or create an evolution with everything changing to adapt.. Caveman once believed that fire was evil or magic.. They also evolved to believe the Earth is flat..

Explain how each country and ethnic background is made from a fish who crawled on to water?? Each having a language and a culture of their own? How come this world is more abundant with life then any other planet? Big bang theory is what you believe is still a theory.


This is the evolution of knowledge, not biological evolution. Biological evolution explains how mutations gave advantages to the survival of species. In the end all this means is evolution is a theory which states a specimen that has the best ability to survive and procreate will dominate the gene pool, influencing the developement of the species. Certain regions prefer the developement of certain traits over others, and are also isolated from one another. This is the reason for all the variations in a single familly of organism.

Knowledge is only partially due to evolution. The brain has evolved to allow for more varied knowledge and different types of processing that aided in our survival. But a brain capable of developing knowledge alone will not amass any without the proper social structure. Knowledge, such as language, sciences, etc are societal evolutions. Thanks in large part to the creation of better avenues of communication, extended life spans and increased access to education, human knowledge has flourished. But even now you have cases of children growing up feral (http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=oxana) and not developing the pathways to allow for speech. So speech is partly due to an evolution of the brain, but also due to our social structure.

Different cultures created their own language because they had at some point broken contact with other humans and adapted their own language. Modern examples of how certain regions can foster different languages would be the difference found between American and British English.




Because of having faith they took the steps to discover America.. Fled for religion beliefs and because they believed in God that they found courage..

They were in search of new lands and financial opportunities just as much as religious freedom. Given the lack of religion, I'm sure the prospects of their own land devoid of ridiculous laws of entitlement would of satisfied their urge to explore.



What are you living for?? Is their a better life after this one or is this it?? If this is it, just shoot yourself in the head.. I mean your not going to hell.. Because that be foolish, why live with the pain and bad economy that this life puts you through?


Not sure about you but I live for the experience. My belief is that this is the only life I have so I better make sure I experience as much as I can while I'm here. The good and the bad are all experiences that allow someone to flourish, I would in fact hate a painless life. That would be the most bleak existence of all.



I have a very open mind, your mind is closed off and some how you will believe in man then of God.. If we didnt have Christianity, then we be full of sin.. Full of sin will damage lives, family and you above all else knows it. Why you think kids do the things they do?? They have no fear of God or believe in listening to parents or respecting them.


No offense but that's a crock of shit. People have more reasons than just god to be good and well behaved. I'm an atheist and I think most people would agree that I am one of the nicest, thoughtful and well behaved people they know. You don't need the fear of god to make people good. Nor do people that believe in god behave themselves. Society and experiences define how you develop. In many situations its someones drive for a better life, or elements that help them be happy that guides their judgment, on occasion that is religion, but not always. When it is religion the result are as varied as individuality.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Reading shawners post just made my IQ points go down. Im sorry dood but sometimes you need to stick to what you know best...which is when you downloaded and filed a movie in your collection. I try not to question your brilliance but that fucking post made my forehead grow and I developed hair on my knuckles. I also developed a complex about my insurance company.

Asking what I am living for is simply stupid. DO you think I wish to be dead? I very much enjoy life. Your judgement that man would be full of sin without the Bible is also crazy. By the bibles account God created sin, evil and all the bad shit in between and will do nothing to help anyone out because he wants to play a game with the devil, which he also created. That makes zero sense. The Bible encourages killing a woman if she has been raped. It encourages beating your wife. God killed the entire world once instead of talking to them and explaining how he wanted them to be and nurturing them to be better humans. He just said fuck it and Killed babies and the animals without even a warning or care. God seems to love killing babies because he does it again when he slaughters all the first born of Egypt. Completly inocent babies. Why does God kill babies? Thats pure evil and I would never worship a God who does that. That God can suck my dick and I would gladly let him kill me to show how badass he is because Id rather go to Hell than spend one second with a baby killer! I'll go on... God Kills 42 kids because they teased a prophet. Nothing more. Just teased him. They teased his bald head and god sent two bears to maul them. Boy, thats a God I just fell in love with as a kid!

I respect some people who have faith even though I feel they are misguided. They feel lost without having that crutch to hold them up. I myself think there are people who have doubts and then there are those who lie about it like Mother Teresa.

I myself have my own notions about the universe. Notice I do not say "belief". Belief would imply that I think I am right. I do not know if I am right and I think everyone should be able to say this. If a person can't admit that they don't really know then they are not worth talking to. A person who believes everything they hear and does not wonder about whether it could be made up ancient hoodoo or does not posses the ability to admit that there are more possibilities to it all are small minded and thats all there is to it.

I grew up in a strong Christian family and I still give them respect for their beliefs when I am in their homes but I am a grown up now with my own thoughts and the ability to discern what is ridiculous and absurd.

The Christian God is only one of many that have existed throughout time. There are many people still believe in that PREDATE Christianity and in fact, Christians just grabbed a little bit of this and a little bit of that and edited together a bible with a plagiarized back story.

I find it sad that people can't be good and kind without having to fear their god is going to seek revenge on them. I try to be nice because I think its the right thing to do and I would never encourage the killing of kids to scare people into being nice. I find Christians to be the most angry, hate filled people I know. They are quick to judge people and think they are better than everyone else. Its sad, it truly is.

[A_mber]

I thought this would fit well into this subject.


Dennis McKinsey:

If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's okay, he's God. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite. [newsletter Biblical Errancy ]

[Drew Wilson]

I find Christians to be the most angry, hate filled people I know. They are quick to judge people and think they are better than everyone else. Its sad, it truly is.

Is that what you think of me? I thought I have been nice to a number of people on here. :\

[Signa]

To be fair Drew, Mel is right. The Westboro Baptist church alone makes up for all the nice Christians out there. Nice Christians aren't exactly a minority, but they aren't as vocal as the bad ones. The problem is, religion gives a reason for these people to hate. It is GOD'S WILL that they hate.

Even the nice ones assume the worst in everyone else. I remember this one confused looking old guy at my retail job. I figured he was lost and needed some help finding a product, so I asked if I could help him find something. He instantly said something like "I'm fine, but I can help YOU find something" and handed me some card about finding Jesus.

For goodness sakes, I already consider myself a Christian. Why the hell did he think that I needed evangelizing?

[Drew Wilson]

I admit, I never liked the Christians that give ones like me a bad name. I remember seeing snippets of how these priests would instantly heal people with the power of God on a stage and I remember thinking, "Good grief, put a lid on your stupid act!"

I also find the Jehova's that keep knocking on my door and saying that my Christian beliefs aren't enough rather annoying as well.

I have thought numerous times, "These people are giving us a bad name because others will think that all sects of Christianity are like that."

There was even that case I saw on TV where two sects of Christianity where it was believed that Jesus was burried worship at the ground nearby, but they've been at odds with each other for so long, the site is falling apart and they can't decide who should take the painters ladder down from one of the windows. I remember thinking, "Oh FFS! Give it a rest."

It's sad that the non-annoying religious people are easily forgotten and yet the few bad ones are remembered forever. :(

[milk man]

It's sad that the non-annoying religious people are easily forgotten and yet the few bad ones are remembered forever. :(

Not to be mean but I have never met a truly religious person who was not annoying. It seems its their duty to save your soul and not just the jehova's or baptists. You could be talking about buying new tires and somehow the conversation will shift to god.

From my view the only thing religion is good for is getting a crack-head off drugs but even then they become annoying and won't stop talking about how god saved their life.

[Drew Wilson]

I suppose it depends on how you define "truly religious". If by truly religious, you mean someone who can't spend a second without having to relate everything to their given religion, then there are probably only a handful of religious people out there. A drop in the bucket if you will.

[wapazoid]

If we didnt have Christianity, then we be full of sin.. Full of sin will damage lives, family and you above all else knows it.

Interesting. Are you a Christian? I don't know much about The Bible, but isn't stealing and even hoarding considered as sin? If so, why do you do it on a regular basis, then boast about?

If the Christian version of God exists, don't you think he knows about the internet too?

[A_mber]

If we didnt have Christianity, then we be full of sin.. Full of sin will damage lives, family and you above all else knows it. Why you think kids do the things they do?? They have no fear of God or believe in listening to parents or respecting them.





With this here quote, I am just wondering how anyone of faith DEFENDS say....a Catholic Priest who molests 9 out of 10 children in his parish, or how a Christian Pastor is OK to commit adultery. Christians, Baptists, Catholics, Buddhists so on and so for are all filled with sin because "sin" is a man chosen characteristic. Much the same as laws of any country, it's because one man took the initiative to say this is or isn't right according to the "masses".


I have faith in some kind of higher power, but I cannot say what that higher power is. I live life to the best of my ability and I treat people kindly, I teach my children to do the same and if that isn't enough to make it in this life or a life past this....so be it.

[milk man]

Proof that god does exist and did come to earth. Link Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqVjw8cFdas)