Gamer rights are important too!

[hoyasaxa]

I just thought I'd drop this link for anyone who might have a political side, or who would be interested in constitutional treatment of games. Basically, this is a group fighting against unconstitutional legislation that treats games differently from other forms of entertainment -- they want to make it illegal for minors to purchase games rated M, for example, not only fining the distributor but also the minor, an official charge.

Right now the big one is happening in Mississippi (so if you live there or know anyone there it's important) but it happens all over. The last big one was in New York. So basically, you can just sign up for this site, and if you don't check the box to receive emails I can vouch for the fact that they won't pester you with junk, it's not a mailing list. But adding your name increases the size of the group, which increases the amount that politicians will pay attention to us.

It's only a matter of time before legislation moves from restricting sales of these games to restricting/censoring production. But if we stop it now, maybe it won't get there.

:icon_salu

[drtoker]

It should be illegal for a minor to purchase an M rated game, just as it should be illegal for them to see an R rated movie. They are for mature audiences, which specifically excludes minors.

Its illegal to try to buy alcohol before you are of age, and cigarettes. Why should this be any different?

I'll take it one step further and say that even with an adult purchasing the game, minors should not be playing them unsupervised.

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

Buying a game wont get you a dui or in a car accident, or lung cancer. Its a game people, i mean why not arrest kids for buying comic books with violence in them too.

[drtoker]

because the 'violence' in those comic books is not of the same variety. Now, if they were buying 'slasher' type comics, or some adult porn comics, then ya, they should be fined along with the store owners.

We're talking about graphic violence, not comic book style fighting here. There is a difference you know.

Its like comparing killing enemies in an old style NES game to GTA. One is graphic bloody violence, the other is just far fetched cartoon violence.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

[hoyasaxa]

The point though, Drtoker, is whether video games should be treated any differently from other forms of media with equivalent levels of mature content. The answer, according to the constitution, is no. When we allow one form of expression to be regulated far more strictly than others, it paves the way for escalations leading to far stricter regulations. Continue along that road and you're starting to look at a Fahrenheit 451 situation. How far do you go before you accept that parents need to be responsible for their own children? You can only blame so much on the media and on society. At some point parents have to stand up and take charge themselves, and do the work required to be educated about their child's world. It's their responsibility as a parent.

[Signa]

id only support your stance if they made a second rating for the games you are talking about drtoker. as it is, there is no reason that a 13 year old cant play games like thief and oblivion. Im sure i can come up with more, but those games have atrociously bad ratings on them, and getting anyone punished over them is ludicrous. They need to use the AO rating on normal games, and make a separate "adult entertainment" rating.

[dubstylee]

because the 'violence' in those comic books is not of the same variety. Now, if they were buying 'slasher' type comics, or some adult porn comics, then ya, they should be fined along with the store owners.

We're talking about graphic violence, not comic book style fighting here. There is a difference you know.

Its like comparing killing enemies in an old style NES game to GTA. One is graphic bloody violence, the other is just far fetched cartoon violence.

You're comparing apples to oranges.


To me that's a big fat copout for improper parenting. My parents taught me
1) that video games are a waste of time
2) when playing them that is a game not real life

When you were 12 were you smart enough to know the difference between games and real life? Kids grow into adults when you challenge them to think for themselves, not when you shield them from the world and coddle them until they are 18 then suddenly thrust them into an environment with virtually no authority figures.

It's thinking like yours that creates a government that thinks it knows what's better for my kids than I do. Lazy.

[wapazoid]

because the 'violence' in those comic books is not of the same variety. Now, if they were buying 'slasher' type comics, or some adult porn comics, then ya, they should be fined along with the store owners.

We're talking about graphic violence, not comic book style fighting here. There is a difference you know.

Its like comparing killing enemies in an old style NES game to GTA. One is graphic bloody violence, the other is just far fetched cartoon violence.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

As a comic book and graphic novel collector, I'd have to disagree with you. True, quite a few runs exhibit "cartoonish" super hero violence... but there are just as many that display real-world killing, gore, torture, rape, sex and language. Marvel Max for example, publishes a very adult oriented version of The Punisher. And just about anything from Avatar contains R and even X-rated content. Personally, I think shifting gears to accomodate adults saved the industry.

I find that quite a few local comic shops separate these titles, placing them in the "18+ only" sections. I've seen owners tell young kids trying to buy them to have mom or dad return and pick it up. And I agree with that. I think a lot of people forget that independent businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. In my opinion, it's not unconstututional to refuse sale to a minor of anything adult oriented, with or without a rating. It's just good business practice. What the hell ever happened to morals?

As with anything a minor does in life, responsibility lies exclusively with the parent or guardian. No, violent games won't cause cancer or sclerosis of the liver, but neither will Penthouse Magazine. I think games have a rating because they are literally sold everywhere. You won't find an ellaborate comic book selection at your local Walmart. This sort of thing forces an adult purchase, which is good. Okay, so maybe big brother or even some coaxed stranger goes in and buys GTA for the eager little beavers waiting outside. That's a biproduct, just like talking your older sister into buying you a beer when you were 15.

P.S.

The fight against refusal of sales to minors is more of a crusade driven by ... minors. Why not fight against video game censorship? After all, you'll get your copy through bittorrent anyway. :icon_cycl

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

because the 'violence' in those comic books is not of the same variety. Now, if they were buying 'slasher' type comics, or some adult porn comics, then ya, they should be fined along with the store owners.

We're talking about graphic violence, not comic book style fighting here. There is a difference you know.

Its like comparing killing enemies in an old style NES game to GTA. One is graphic bloody violence, the other is just far fetched cartoon violence.

You're comparing apples to oranges.


They are just games and if parents explain that to their kids unless they are retarded they should be able to understand the difference.

[drtoker]

They are just games and if parents explain that to their kids unless they are retarded they should be able to understand the difference.

But see, heres where I'm having a problem understanding your points of view. By that logic, if a parent explains that Saw was just a movie (fiction) then its ok right? Should they just be able to go to blockbuster and rent all those gore flicks when they are 14?
I can't follow that logic. We restrict graphic materials to minors for everything else, so why should games be any different? I mean cartoonish violence is one thing, but realistic gore is something I do not want to be availbe to my kids without them needing to find an adult to purchase/bring them to.



It's thinking like yours that creates a government that thinks it knows what's better for my kids than I do. Lazy.

But see, I do want to parent my own kids. What I do not want, is for my KIDS to have the ability to go out on their own and buy/watch things that are most definatly inapproprate. If I feel that its OK, then I'll buy it for them. But if there are no regulations, whats to stop them from buying it without my knowledge? Even if you teach your kids well, teenagers rebel, and do things they are told not to. This is why we have laws to protect them.

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

But see, heres where I'm having a problem understanding your points of view. By that logic, if a parent explains that Saw was just a movie (fiction) then its ok right? Should they just be able to go to blockbuster and rent all those gore flicks when they are 14?
I can't follow that logic. We restrict graphic materials to minors for everything else, so why should games be any different? I mean cartoonish violence is one thing, but realistic gore is something I do not want to be availbe to my kids without them needing to find an adult to purchase/bring them to.



But see, I do want to parent my own kids. What I do not want, is for my KIDS to have the ability to go out on their own and buy/watch things that are most definatly inapproprate. If I feel that its OK, then I'll buy it for them. But if there are no regulations, whats to stop them from buying it without my knowledge? Even if you teach your kids well, teenagers rebel, and do things they are told not to. This is why we have laws to protect them.


I grew up watching horror movies, my parents use to take me to see them. So its a lame excuse saying they are bad or that games are bad, i never went out and killed someone because of seeing a movie or playing a game. If the kids do this even if they are taught its not real life, then there is just something wrong with them mentally and they would be dangerous and cruel no matter what.

[drtoker]

Believe it or not, you just partially proved my point. Your parents TOOK you to see those, you couldn't just go by yourself. Thats my point. There are regulations in place for your saftey as a minor. Why shouldn't this protection extend to other forms of violence?
What makes games different from a fictional movie? I see no difference, so why the double standard? Or are you actually saying that kids should be able to go to an R rated movie alone???

I'm not saying games make kids bad, or movies for that matter. We're only talking rules and regulations, not behavioral changes due to them.

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

When i was 16 and driving i use to go to r rated movies all the time with no problems. these are movies and games, and like i said unless they are retarded these kids should be able to tell the difference from real life and games or movies. you cant compare games or movies to things like smokes or alcohol, they just arent the same.

[wapazoid]

I'd say most children can distinguish the difference between a violent video game and real life, much like a child knows the big bad wolf never really blew down a piggy's house. I don't think the stance with our government is based on warping young minds into a psychotic frenzy because someone 18+ failed to tell them it wasn't real. This is more of an ethical question. I for one would be very uncomfortable if films like The Devil's Rejects or The Hills Have Eyes were switched from UR & R to G... under some ridiculous notion that the government has no right to raise our children. Too many parents couldn't give a damn about what their kids do, where they are, or even who they are. And that's a problem. Minors do not and should not have the same rights as a grown, tax paying adult. They need to ge governed by law and good parenting until they reach that status. Then they can bitch about the 2 hours they wasted on a stupid movie.

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

Saying kids should not have the same rights as adults is no different then saying black people shouldnt have the same rights as white people

[wapazoid]

LMAO

You're right. An 11 year old should be able to walk into a liquor store, buy a beer, pack of smokes and a smut mag. Top the evening off with an R rated flick, then onto Walmart for GTA. All with his shiny new credit card.

Because this is America, damnit!

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

Your a dumbass, you know i am not talking about that, the right of equal protection under the law and the right to be safe from abuse.

[wapazoid]

edited, edited, edited.

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

I am sorry i called you a dumbass, but i am sure you know what i ment and not that kids should be able to by things like drugs and alcohol.

[wapazoid]

Saying kids should not have the same rights as adults is no different then saying black people shouldnt have the same rights as white people

It's cool. But I was basing my comment on this little gem. They shouldn't be allowed to buy alcohol, cigarettes and even... violent video games. If parents are okay with their 10 year old playing GTA, fine. They can buy it for him. No law will ever be created that would make catching a teenager playing a violent game under parental supervision a crime. So what's the big deal? :icon_scra

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

I just dont think that playing a game or seeing a movie compares with buying something that is toxic that can poison them.

[wapazoid]

What about porn? Would you be cool with your pre-teen watching Christy Canyon in the living room before dinner time? How about rappin' Two Live Crew while your wife serves up his vegetables? These things won't kill you either. But I'm hoping you'd find those acts unacceptable for a child... right?

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

No i dont, but lets be honest here, can either of us say that we didnt listen or watch such things when we were kids? I saw some pron when i was a kid but i wasnt impressed by it, and i did listen to 2 live crew i thought they were too funny, still do.

[Feather]

it should not be the governments place to moderate what your kids watch and do. it should be the parents

[HelenaP]

LMAO

You're right. An 11 year old should be able to walk into a liquor store, buy a beer, pack of smokes and a smut mag. Top the evening off with an R rated flick, then onto Walmart for GTA. All with his shiny new credit card.

Because this is America, damnit!

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."


it should not be the governments place to moderate what your kids watch and do. it should be the parents

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

*le sigh*

[Lehk]

It should be illegal for a minor to purchase an M rated game, just as it should be illegal for them to see an R rated movie. They are for mature audiences, which specifically excludes minors.

Its illegal to try to buy alcohol before you are of age, and cigarettes. Why should this be any different?

I'll take it one step further and say that even with an adult purchasing the game, minors should not be playing them unsupervised.


so basically what you are saying is that you don't care about the first amendment at all?

you should shoop out the American flag in your avvie and replace it with a more fitting flag, perhaps a Chinese flag or the old Soviet flag would be more to your liking?

[Mels_Smileys45]

it should not be the governments place to moderate what your kids watch and do. it should be the parents


Someone has to moderate what other people may do to other peoples kids. Id love to kill people who fuck kids but...rules rules rules.

[Feather]

Someone has to moderate what other people may do to other peoples kids. Id love to kill people who fuck kids but...rules rules rules.

I am not saying let anarchy rule. we do need some laws to as you put it moderate some behavior. but how far should this moderating go. pretty soon you wont be able to smoke in your own home or play with yourself in your own home. how will they enforce these moderating laws. put monitors in every home. camera on every corner in bathrooms and bedrooms. I realize I am going to the extreme but we have seen the government go to the extremes before.

[Excrement_Cranium]

it should not be the governments place to moderate what your kids watch and do. it should be the parents

You could almost knock George off my sig.


However, I do remember when I was younger, I could not by a "stickered" CD unless a parent bought it for me. I could also not rent R rated VHS tapes on my own. Of course, now I'm not even sure you can be on a video rental account w/o being 18.

This aided my parents in moderating my media intake.

Since I was always doing some kind of work for somebody, I always had my own cash to buy stuff.

However, I don't think that charges should be brought on the consumer, nor should it be held as a criminal offense for the retailer/cashier. Though, a small civil fine would be appropriate to ensure the policy held up.

[Feather]

thank you my friend

[Signa]

Though, a small civil fine would be appropriate to ensure the policy held up.

how small is small? ive heard of some people getting fined like $5000 for selling GTA to someone under a certain age.

[wapazoid]

5k? Was it a large chain store or something?

[VAMPYRE BLADE]

I am not saying let anarchy rule. we do need some laws to as you put it moderate some behavior. but how far should this moderating go. pretty soon you wont be able to smoke in your own home or play with yourself in your own home. how will they enforce these moderating laws. put monitors in every home. camera on every corner in bathrooms and bedrooms. I realize I am going to the extreme but we have seen the government go to the extremes before.

I agree with you, you cant let the government run over all your rights and do what they want once you do things like after katrina in new orleans when the mayor had nation guard taking legally owned firearms from people at gun point of m-16's.

[Signa]

5k? Was it a large chain store or something?
It was fred meyer (part of Kroger), and I was told that fine went to the offending cashier. there was an FCC fine that one store had for $10,000. some sales associate didnt know about which products had the analouge and which had the digital tuners.

[Excrement_Cranium]

how small is small? ive heard of some people getting fined like $5000 for selling GTA to someone under a certain age.

Will since the tobacco fine is $500, and the liquor fine is $1000 (in Washington state, anyway) I find that to be excessive.

Even for a large retailer like Wal-Mart, a $500 fine should suffice.


Of course, all that these fines are for, is to "force the hand" of the retailer, making sure they enact policy and procedure to follow through. The employee should not be fined, though they would obviously be subject to "disciplinary action" from their employer.



Besides, if teenage kids can find someone to buy them beer, I doubt they would have a hard time finding someone to get them game or movie.

>.<

[wapazoid]

Ratings are good. Ratings are our friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8P06uccq5o

I get the sneaky suspicion that mommy bought this out of fear. :icon_cycl

[Signa]

for a while, i thought it was fake, the then angry german kid. then i saw the way he was twitching his neck. not normal mentally.

he obviously has *some* control. it really didnt look like he was able to get himself to actually damage anything.

[Burt_Flaxton]

Love the discussion going on here, this is awesome material for a really good research paper. Someone should do some writing!!!