demonoid-like group for usenet...

[chromer1]

what about controlled-access files on usenet, like demonoid but for usenet?

those who upload their share could decrypt participating files.

any thoughts ?

[shawners]

what? Its already perfect in every way, dont ruin a good thing.

[black_magiic]

if its not broken dont fix it

[mfgbypooter]

what is the point?

*

[chromer1]

Could it IMPROVE usenet though?

Demonoid improves torrents.

At any given time, there's alot of content to be desired.

There could be so much more on usenet if people contributed more.

[napho]

There are already password protected files on Usenet but people seem to post the passwords because they don't like Usenet being used like a private torrent site.

[chromer1]

But the password-files out there right now are not an organized, cooperative attempt among interested peers. Like Demonoid, anyone could get the benefits of more content in exchange for uploading a minimum amount.

[shawners]

Dude.. Demonoid did for bit torrent like kazaa or winmx did for filesharing. Screwed the shit out of the content and people. Demonoid isnt worth two shits and a fuck.

[chromer1]

thats funny. I usually get better download speeds and quality thru Demonoid (or groups like it) than through an uncontrolled indexing source...I mean, people are willing to buy invites to groups like that !

[mfgbypooter]

the only benefit of everyone having to upload a "share" on usenet is retention and completion of all files going in the shitter.

*

[chromer1]

explain...

[black_magiic]

I dont think it's within your grasp :(

[mfgbypooter]

explain...
in other words there is no benefit.

*

[chromer1]

Thanks for your opinions, but you still haven't given me one single solid good reason to be convinced it would be useless/impractical...

Im a usenet junkie, i know. Besides, i'd like some feedback from someone other the same 3 admins that just want to get rid of this thread.

[evilmegaman]

what about controlled-access files on usenet, like demonoid but for usenet?

those who upload their share could decrypt participating files.

any thoughts ?

This could be the worst idea I have ever heard apart from selling lemonade with no lemons and just sugar...


Well maybe not the worst.. But one of the worst on this topic... I mean.. Only uploaders are in danger in newsgroups. So what's the point of this?? Is there any point to dividing newsgroups?

[chromer1]

Gentlemen, im looking for a TECHNICAL explaination for your assertions. Not emotional ones.

Newsgroups would not be divided. Perhaps new newsgroups could form containing the passworded files. That way, the additional headers and bandwidth would have no interference.

Now please, be serious.

PS: uploaders in danger? These days everyones in danger.

[mfgbypooter]

Thanks for your opinions, but you still haven't given me one single solid good reason to be convinced it would be useless/impractical...I gave the you THE single most solid reason, and it is not my opinion, or just an opinion, but fact.

Retention and completion would go in the shitter.

Period.

The only way your idea would have a snowball's chance in hell would be to run your own private server and only allow your own users files on it but then it wouldn't be Usenet now, would it.

Im a usenet junkie, i know. Besides, i'd like some feedback from someone other the same 3 admins that just want to get rid of this thread.Ahem, the only admin so far in this thread is evilmegaman and if admins wanted to get rid of this thread it would have been closed and/or deleted.

*

[Tic3]

Gentlemen, im looking for a TECHNICAL explaination for your assertions.

How 'bout this:

Usenet...not broke. Not need fix.

Technical enough? :icon_tong

Seriously, though...you are asking the wrong question. The question you should ask, and one that I haven't seen answered yet, is why would you WANT to do that?

If you want elitist asshole attitudes, just go to any private BT site. Check out private FTP sites. Check out DC++ hubs with 200 GB minimum shares and bizarre [HUN] or [LEET] prefixes required.

See back in the olden days, people used to share if the WANTED to. Life was good. Then ratio FTP sites screwed things up. Then came web sites that made you click on half a million porno ads to get a password. Then P2P got the same treatment with required shares. Now you want to do the same to Usenet?

Give me one good TECHNICAL reason why? A Technical reason...not some lame emotional response.

Back at ya.

[black_magiic]

How 'bout this:

Usenet...not broke. Not need fix.

Technical enough? :icon_tong

Seriously, though...you are asking the wrong question. The question you should ask, and one that I haven't seen answered yet, is why would you WANT to do that?

If you want elitist asshole attitudes, just go to any private BT site. Check out private FTP sites. Check out DC++ hubs with 200 GB minimum shares and bizarre [HUN] or [LEET] prefixes required.

See back in the olden days, people used to share if the WANTED to. Life was good. Then ratio FTP sites screwed things up. Then came web sites that made you click on half a million porno ads to get a password. Then P2P got the same treatment with required shares. Now you want to do the same to Usenet?

Give me one good TECHNICAL reason why? A Technical reason...not some lame emotional response.

Back at ya.

amen to someone with their head screwed on right

[DwarfBaby]

I gave the you THE single most solid reason, and it is not my opinion, or just an opinion, but fact.

Retention and completion would go in the shitter.

The only way your idea would have a snowball's chance in hell would be to run your own private server and only allow your own users files on it but then it wouldn't be Usenet now, would it.

*

I couldn't have said it better. Wasting space on a server with files only a few can access is not efficient. Even large servers like Giganews have space limitations. It's almost like downloading an 8.5 Gig lesbian marathon DVD only find it contains DRM. You want to kill the fucker that posted it.

[meyou123]

Gentlemen, im looking for a TECHNICAL explaination for your assertions. Not emotional ones.

Newsgroups would not be divided. Perhaps new newsgroups could form containing the passworded files. That way, the additional headers and bandwidth would have no interference.

Now please, be serious.

PS: uploaders in danger? These days everyones in danger.
I think YOU are missing the human side of the equation....not just the technical one.....
The reason for not doing it, would be there would not be any people on usenet that would want the files after they found out that you had to have a password to open them. Thus, no reason for a person to upload such a file in the first place. No uploaders also equals no downloaders!
So Usenet would suffer and the files would stop.

The end result would be very ticked off people that downloaded files and thought all they had to do was open them..... because that is what they had done before for YEARS, but found them password protected and that you had to go to another group just to get the password. They would be angry because there simply was no need to password protect the files in the first place.

A better question would be.....WHY do you want to start something like this?


I have a little test for you to take....why don't you see how this actually works by starting two groups like that on Usenet with the files on one group and the password TO the files on the other and see how much traffic your groups get. I don't think there will be much once poeople find out what you are doing though.

[napho]

A.b.movies.shadowrealm seems to be going in the private direction. Usenet and BitTorrent are different cultures and now they're clashing. "when worlds collide" (Seinfeld)

http://binsearch.info/browse.php?bg=alt.binaries.movies.shadowrealm

[Mels_Smileys45]

A.b.movies.shadowrealm seems to be going in the private direction. Usenet and BitTorrent are different cultures and now they're clashing. "when worlds collide" (Seinfeld)

http://binsearch.info/browse.php?bg=alt.binaries.movies.shadowrealm

Same with everything good. Once they get popular they are then quickly ruined. Its like the smart people are first in line then the idiots move in and everything goes to hell. People can't keep their fat stupid gums from bumping and simply enjoy. They have to fuck it up for everyone by acting elite and bragging constantly about what they downloaded, where they got their downloads, how they got it before anyone else and how eveyone else in P2P is a retard ect ect. Only real idiots do shit like that. Just draw a big target on your fucking head, walk thru a firing range and do us all a favor.

[mfgbypooter]

Same with everything good. Once they get popular they are then quickly ruined. Its like the smart people are first in line then the idiots move in and everything goes to hell. People can't keep their fat stupid gums from bumping and simply enjoy. They have to fuck it up for everyone by acting elite and bragging constantly about what they downloaded, where they got their downloads, how they got it before anyone else and how eveyone else in P2P is a retard ect ect. Only real idiots do shit like that. Just draw a big target on your fucking head, walk thru a firing range and do us all a favor.Applesauce!

*

[shawners]

Same with everything good. Once they get popular they are then quickly ruined. Its like the smart people are first in line then the idiots move in and everything goes to hell. People can't keep their fat stupid gums from bumping and simply enjoy. They have to fuck it up for everyone by acting elite and bragging constantly about what they downloaded, where they got their downloads, how they got it before anyone else and how eveyone else in P2P is a retard ect ect. Only real idiots do shit like that. Just draw a big target on your fucking head, walk thru a firing range and do us all a favor.


While losers make stupid post like this because theres nothing good on to watch or listen to. I forgot its forbidden to talk about filesharing on a filesharing network.. We must refrain from telling people of the vast and rich content that awaits them..
You know your a mel_smiley follower.. if you
Dont mind waiting for queue.
Only want rare files because your too cowardly to use the network you love to download the popular files.
The download must take days, not hours. Even using DSL, it has to be slow.

Great logic. Your not retarded because your against usenet or private bt (EVen when you use private porn bt sites). Your retarded because you never tried it to post any feedback, only negativity without even trying it. Its like i cant say i hate BMW if i never driven one. I cant say i hate this restraunt without eating there. SO that makes you retarded, and retarded in nature. I and many would respect you more if you actually used something before posting something against it.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Applesauce!

*


Applesauce is pretty tasty. I like Animal Crackers with my apple sauce.

[mfgbypooter]

SO that makes you retarded, and retarded in nature.lmao at assumptions galore this morning.

retarded is naming names.

*

[Mels_Smileys45]

You really shouldn't quote that dood. What evers wrong with him might rub off on your post! Funny how he's the first little doggie to bark. I thumb my nose in his general direction. The ignore feature is bliss but I think he got confused and clicked the ignorant button. I was actually becoming retarded by trying to read his so called posts. Its like theyre typed by Ray Charles. Blind, dead Ray Charles. Nothings being done about this chump so Im going to bark back. Ive publicly asked for help, I didn't go behind anyones back and bitch, and yet its goes on and on.

[nukehella]

This thread was already pretty fucked up before the ongoing soap opera started.
Why don't you 2 guys get a room and get it over with?

[mfgbypooter]

Come on now, everybody loves a retarded post.

*

[Mels_Smileys45]

Ive tried to avoid this as much as possible. He's like a little troll who followes me around. Its fucking sick. Why can't he put my on ignore too if he is so offended? I have him on ignore but I still can't get away from him. I have done my best to not respond but I will no longer be insulted by some crazy post troll. Im a flame fucking champ by god!

[nukehella]

I was going to suggest you both just ignore each other but I see it runs deeper than that.Oh well.

[black_magiic]

This is my favorite thread of the week

[mfgbypooter]

that's because it is so advanced.

*

[meyou123]

A.b.movies.shadowrealm seems to be going in the private direction. Usenet and BitTorrent are different cultures and now they're clashing. "when worlds collide" (Seinfeld)

http://binsearch.info/browse.php?bg=alt.binaries.movies.shadowrealm

Thanks for that link. I did not even know that was going on in usenet! But all I can say to that is when usenet becomes like torrentbytes or bitmetv.org, then count me out. Because once they have so many members, then it is a closed club. And no one else can get in. And if you TRY to get in you either have to: A. Beg for an invite or B. wait until they have an opening like at torrentbytes. (good luck)

I do not find either option good. I like the openess of usenet and if I have to beg for an invite to a group, then the group is simply not worth joining. Just my two cents. I also hope that groups like the one above do not become popular on Usenet, because I think that as it is now...it does not NEED fixing. Like the old saying goes: "If it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!"

[mfgbypooter]

Lets make this simple for everyone to understand.

There is enough useless binary posts on usenet already (no thanks to the dutch and other non .nfo posting fucks) without adding more since all it does is bounce old posts off of servers faster and then everyone loses.

*

[meyou123]

Lets make this simple for everyone to understand.

There is enough useless binary posts on usenet already (no thanks to the dutch and other non .nfo posting fucks) without adding more since all it does is bounce old posts off of servers faster and then everyone loses.

*

Well said.

[chromer1]

Your point is taken, but newsservers make money off of increased traffic/subscribers. I honestly dont think that retention periods would decrease just because more content is coming in...the farms would just increase their capacity accordingly.

An American version of the Dutch FTD would be interesting....

[.:sp00ky:.]

hmmm i Think chocolate icecream is best.

[nukehella]

hmmm i Think chocolate icecream is best.

Not if it's melted.Then pistachio is better.

[mfgbypooter]

only with nuts.

*

[DwarfBaby]

Your point is taken, but newsservers make money off of increased traffic/subscribers. I honestly dont think that retention periods would decrease just because more content is coming in...the farms would just increase their capacity accordingly.


Increasing server capacity to service a few rather then allow global use of the same service for the same cost is certainly not a sound business Idea. Making something obscure and difficult does not make it better.

To be honest, I don't want a 13 year old kid or a newbie or a guy on a 56k modem posting to Usenet anyways, leave it to the pros. Retention keeps increasing and so does content, wasting it on protected/passworded files would be a shame.

[chromer1]

You make it sound like usenet is for nerds only. Not anymore. Clients are becoming quite user-friendly to where anyone can do it. Look at Usenext. The whole thing run by wizards..virtually no learning curve. Its been predicted (not by me) that usenet is the next mainstream filesharing source, and more people are migrating to it everyday (mainly because its safer and more stable). Farms are increasing their capacity anyways. And remember, these passworded/encrypted files could be posted to new groups, not bothering anybody. Why would retention periods be decreased? Usenet WANTS more traffic/subscribers.

[mfgbypooter]

Farms are increasing their capacity anyways. And remember, these passworded/encrypted files could be posted to new groups, not bothering anybody. Why would retention periods be decreased? On the contrary they would bother everybody since they still take up overall server space so the posting of these elitest files will push the older posts off the servers to make space for them.

And the farms are only increasing their capacity (at tremendous cost) because as upload rates increase retention only decreases without the added capacity.

Usenet WANTS more traffic/subscribers.Upload traffic no, download subscribers yes.

*

[chromer1]

So your saying that the next 100,000 new customers to usenet will just "bother everybody because there's no room"? Noway. They'll increase capacity anyways. Since when did retention/space decrease because of increased patronage and traffic?

[mfgbypooter]

So your saying that the next 100,000 new customers to usenet will just "bother everybody because there's no room"? Noway. That is not what I have said and I can't make it any plainer than I already have.

First you need to learn reading comprehension and then go learn how usenet works.

It is not the "next 100,000 customers" to usenet it is only those who upload. If everyone uploaded there would be no retention at all.


They'll increase capacity anyways. Since when did retention/space decrease because of increased patronage and traffic?
Since when has been since day one.

*

[chromer1]

Point taken. But i still maintain that the farms would increase capacity to accomadate more business. Besides, such a network wouldn't spring up overnight...thats an interesting question though. Would a sudden explosion in content uploaded suddenly reduce the retention periods?

[mfgbypooter]

yes it would.

now how would your idea work.

Over a year ago I downloaded a complete tv series collection of 45 dvd's, that was over 195 gigs for me to download, now how much would I have to upload under your plan to get those same 45 dvd's?

*

[DwarfBaby]

Point taken. But i still maintain that the farms would increase capacity to accomadate more business. Besides, such a network wouldn't spring up overnight...thats an interesting question though. Would a sudden explosion in content uploaded suddenly reduce the retention periods?


Yes it absolutely would and it has. Every time a new P2P network gets targeted or shut down, traffic for Usenet increases and so does posting. During the last expansion Giganews retention dropped from 70 days to around 59 days. Eventually they expanded their server farms to accommodate this new traffic. This is "Useful" expansion. No limitations, business as Usual and business is good. %99+ of binaries are non-drm not protected or passworded and are extremely easy to obtain and use.

We've explained our viewpoint but I still don't understand yours. How can using limited server space to service fewer then %1 of the Usenet population possibly be beneficial and how does forcing someone to post whether they have anything useful to share or not. Most Usenet users never post and I hope it stays that way. Elitist or not nobody cares what or how much you download but they sure as hell care if you fuck-up and post

[mfgbypooter]

Most Usenet users never post and I hope it stays that way. Elitist or not nobody cares what or how much you download but they sure as hell care if you fuck-up and postAmen brother.

*

[chromer1]

During the last expansion Giganews retention dropped from 70 days to around 59 days. Eventually they expanded their server farms to accommodate this new traffic.
*

Now we're talkin !

Your right, if the uploads suddenly went up 1000% overnight, there just isn't the capacity to handle that overnight.

But such a group would build up gradually.

Out of all the posters out there, only some would participate in a passworded trading network like this.

But this would form a critical mass of content.
As others found content of interest in the passworded collection, they would be
compelled to upload (something not necessarily requested but UNIQUE) to get it, thus increasing the selection so forth and so on.

Each retention cycle, this would grow as more people learned and used the network - but slow enough for the newservers to keep up with. Over time, the newservers would have expanded capacity and 10 times the uploaders would be posting regularly.

Now who wouldn't want that?

[mfgbypooter]

People who don't want usenet any more fucked up than it already is.

*

[chromer1]

Well, atleast I wont have to look back 5 years from now, when im sure something like this will exist, and say "i knew that would happen but i didn't do anything about it"!

[mfgbypooter]

Face it, DRM for files on usenet will never work, since anyone who has access to the password can and will post it.

it is just like all these "groups" who tried to force their "join the channel" IRC crap on usenet, or the dutch and their ftd no .nfo bullshit.

Usenet suffers from their continued arrogant ignorance, and work arounds abound when they shouldn't even be necessary in the first place.

*

[chromer1]

Well then, the dutch ftd shouldn't exist for the same reason?

I think there will be an American version of the Dutch FTD sooner or later.

After all, FTD is thriving and makes alot of happy people. They dominate usenet!

[chromer1]

I have some updates on this idea.

First, members of such a group would take turns uploading pertinent articles to the newsgroup (for example, episodes of a popular TV series). This way, the server isn't flooded with posts from everyone, just the complete set of episodes (for POPULAR series). This wouldn't affect retention hardly, but it would deliver a desirable product - ALL episodes at ALL times.

Second, this system would require a modified encryption program that would require a link to the club site to get the password (unseen to the user). This way, posting passwords would be useless.

Any thoughts?

[meyou123]

Point taken. But i still maintain that the farms would increase capacity to accomadate more business. Besides, such a network wouldn't spring up overnight...thats an interesting question though. Would a sudden explosion in content uploaded suddenly reduce the retention periods?

Again, this is usenet we are talking about.....NOT BT! They are two totally seperate and completely different protocols! Trying to apply methods that work in BT does not mean that they will work in usenet. Nor does it mean that the retention will increase because of more uploading.

And as was stated, yes, they DO want more leechers(or downloaders) , but not more uploaders!

But even if you had people "taking turns"...uploading content...don't you think that would get a bit confusing? How are you going to impliment that? It sounds like it would make people confused as to "whos" turn it is to upload content...unless this would somehow be automatic....even then I don't know how it would work.

[meyou123]

But this would form a critical mass of content.
As others found content of interest in the passworded collection, they would be
compelled to upload (something not necessarily requested but UNIQUE) to get it, thus increasing the selection so forth and so on.

Each retention cycle, this would grow as more people learned and used the network - but slow enough for the newservers to keep up with. Over time, the newservers would have expanded capacity and 10 times the uploaders would be posting regularly.

Now who wouldn't want that?



Well if you actually think there is that much "unique " content and that it would be posted by users I think you are dead wrong. Most people on usenet are LEECHERS...not SEEDERS. Most join the network because they CAN leech and not have to worry about uploading a certian amount.

Under your plan, they would be required to upload content even if they do not have a way to get such "unique" content, so the majority would be left out. I simply do not think there are enough people on usenet that have that kind of content and if there are, it is already THERE for the taking. You also have not adressed EXACTLY how much you would have to "upload" back if you downloaded 45 gigs of DVDs. If you were going to require a 1 to 1 ratio like BT, then as I said, it would take forever and slow the network down.

Usenet does NOT need fixing, there is really nothing to be gained by having a small closed club inside it other than wanting to be a closed club for the sake of having a closed club.

It still makes no sense to me.

[meyou123]

Well, atleast I wont have to look back 5 years from now, when im sure something like this will exist, and say "i knew that would happen but i didn't do anything about it"!


Well if they have that system in place 5 years from now, which I don't think will happen, I will find another way to get my files. I simply do not see the use for another BT based system on usenet...which is really what your plan is.

[chromer1]

But even if you had people "taking turns"...uploading content...don't you think that would get a bit confusing? How are you going to impliment that? It sounds like it would make people confused as to "whos" turn it is to upload content...unless this would somehow be automatic....even then I don't know how it would work.



Remember, with hundreds (or even thousands) of members, your turn might be once every couple of years!
Turns would be tracked by a moderator using a spreadsheet or something, sending out reminder emails.
As mentioned in my last message, to enforce participation a modified encryption program would have to
be used. It would receive an encrypted transmission from the "club site" containing the passwords - a process unseen by the user. This way, passwords cant be posted.


Under your plan, they would be required to upload content even
if they do not have a way to get such "unique" content, so the majority would be left out. I simply do not think
there are enough people on usenet that have that kind of content and if there are, it is already THERE for the taking. You also have not adressed EXACTLY how much you would have to "upload" back if you downloaded 45 gigs of DVDs. If you were going to require a 1 to 1 ratio like BT, then as I said, it would take forever and slow the network down.



Oh no, the ratio would not be anything close to 1:1! You get access to ALL files in the group in exchange for uploading, say, 400MB every year or so! Once this system got started, all members have access to all episodes, so the content is just split up and continuously recycled amongst members. The goal is COMPLETE series at ALL times, nothing more.

[mfgbypooter]

That's fucking stupid, there is no way I am going to keep 400MB of a 4.3GB DVD on my hard drive just to upload to Usenet once a year.

*

[Tic3]

Once this system got started, Usenet would be ruined.


Post fixed by Tic3