Hizbullah's victory transforms the Middle East

[Jared Moya]

The defeat of the regional superpower could yet open the way to a wider settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

As the smoke clears from the battlefield of the 34-day war in Lebanon, it would be a mistake to count the cost only in fallen masonry and fresh graves. All is changed, changed utterly, by the defeat that the whole of Israel is now debating, from the cabinet through the lively press to the embittered reservists at the falafel stall. Practically the only person in the world who claims Israel won the war is George Bush - and we all know his definition of the words "mission accomplished".

Reports that the Hizbullah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, expressed regret this week at having underestimated Israel's reponse to the capture of two of its soldiers were misleading. In fact, Nasrallah thanked God that the attack came when the resistance movement was prepared, as he was convinced Israel would have otherwise invaded later in the year at a time of its choosing.

If the fierce thicket of the Iraqi resistance stopped the Bush war spreading to Syria then the extraordinary Hizbullah victory has surely made the world think again about an attack on Iran. But the main - and maybe the most welcome - shift in the 40-year-old paradigm of the Israeli-Arab conflict is the puncturing of the belief in a permanent and unchallengeable Israeli military superiority over its neighbours and the hubris this has induced in Israeli leaders - from the sleek Shimon Peres through the roughhouse of Binyamin Netanyahu to the stumbling Mr Magoo premiership of Ehud Olmert.



READ ARTICLE (http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/09/01/hizbullahs-victory-has-transformed-the-middle-east/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fisrael%2Fco mment%2F0%2C%2C1861645%2C00.html&frame=true)

http://www.tcnj.edu/~hanna4/hezbollah_logo.gif

[don webb]

Victory ?

After Hizbollah fighters seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12, Israel started bombing Lebanon's civilian infrastructure in a one-month war which displaced more than 900,000 people.

Israeli attacks killed close to 1,200 people in Lebanon, mostly civilians, and did damage worth billions of dollars. Israel lost 157 people, mostly soldiers inside Lebanon. "Frankly we were surprised by the great size (of the Israeli response) and by this serious attack."

I beleave this tells who won !

[meyou123]

I don't know WHERE people get the notion that Hezbolah won! Doesn't look like a victory to me! Not when they get the hell bombed out of them and they lost more people than Israel did.

[DwarfBaby]

I don't know WHERE people get the notion that Hezbolah won! Doesn't look like a victory to me! Not when they get the hell bombed out of them and they lost more people than Israel did.

A battle lost does not mean a war won. Hezbolah absolutley did win this latest 4,000 year old family feud. Why? Because almost every of the 1 billion in Islam infested nations believe they won. That is all.

[condorloco]

Hizbullah won because they are still around. They more popular in many parts of the world including Lebanon. Israel failed in all their goals unless you are saying destroying the infrastrure and killing civilians was their goal.

[meyou123]

A battle lost does not mean a war won. Hezbolah absolutley did win this latest 4,000 year old family feud. Why? Because almost every of the 1 billion Islam infested nations believe they won. That is all.


Just believing a LIE does not make it come true!

[meyou123]

Hizbullah won because they are still around. They more popular in many parts of the world including Lebanon. Israel failed in all their goals unless you are saying destroying the infrastrure and killing civilians was their goal.



Well I did not see Hezbolah marching through the streets of Israel either, so I don't thinik you are correct. And all we know is what reporters tell us....we may never know how many hezbolah or israeli soldiers were killed.

And How did Israel fail in all ther goals? Their goal was NOT to occupy lebanon again, which is what it will take if they wanted to completly destroy hezbolah, they DID take city afer city though on the border! And you want to call THAT defeat? Sorry, but my terms of defeat and yours are two different things.

[Slycktom]

Victory? Victory you say? Master Obe Wan...not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen...begun, this World War III has...

[dftpnkezln]

And How did Israel fail in all ther goals? Their goal was NOT to occupy lebanon again, which is what it will take if they wanted to completly destroy hezbolah, they DID take city afer city though on the border! And you want to call THAT defeat? Sorry, but my terms of defeat and yours are two different things.

Well, their goals included eliminating Hezbollah as a threat to Israeli security, trying to force the Lebanese government to enforce the relevant UN agreements calling for Hezbollah to be disarmed (how ironic it is for Israel of all countries, to go to war to enforce UN agreements - considering its been in violation of one for almost 40 years and half a dozen since), recover her kidnapped soldiers (doubly ironic for Israel, a serial kidnapper of Palestinians and Lebanese) and defend her territory against incursions (with this, irony loses all meaning - the occupier of Palestinian territory for 40 years, Lebanese territory for 20 etc...becomes the defender of the concept of sovereignty of the nation state).

On at least three (arguably all) of these goals, they failed miserably. Hezbollah may have been (temporarily) pushed out of operating from the south (although, considering Hezbollah are a grass-roots movement who have arisen from within the people, its hard to see how they can be 'pushed out' permanently) but as compensation they've gained enormous credence throughout the region for actually staying on the battlefield with Israel for almost a month - something that entire coalitions of Arab states havent managed in the past. In doing so, theyve strengthened their future prospects as a national force (support for Hezbollah against the Israeli's was as high as 80% across all ethnicities in Lebanon), a regional force (witness: Hezbollah flags on the streets of Baghdad) as well as shattered the myth of invulnerability that Israel had built up through her succession of routs over the years. By betting so many chips and having their bluff called, Israel has potentially made it *more* likely that incursions on her territory will be conducted in the future. At the very least, theyve given a shot in the arm to collective Arab morale. As for the soldiers, Israel will negotiate to have them returned in exchange for some Hezbollah/Lebanese nationals - ie. exactly what Hezbollah was demanding to begin with.

I agree with you, this isnt a defeat for Israel...its a catastrophe for her.

[don webb]

Why do so many refuse to accept the fact that we are at war against an enemy that wants to kill us all, International Terrorism ?

Hezbollah engages in terrorism -- the deliberate targeting of Jewish civilians and others -- to achieve its goals. For the past month, Hezbollah has rained down thousands of rockets on Israel, deliberately maiming and killing innocent Israeli civilians. Hezbollah uses Lebanese civilians as human shields when it places its rockets in civilian areas, and is therefore responsible for many Lebanese casualties.

You here none of this in the Mainstream Media, where is the crys for all the Isreali civilians killed ? Wise up people, or one day this will be in YOUR back yard.

[DigitalJunkie]

Wake up don_webb, it's already in "our backyard"! Terrorists are global now. They are not just in Iraq & few other countries. Pres. Bush would have you believe, winning in Iraq will be victory over terrorists! If you agree with Bush, you're nuts. We need to spend more resources here, more so than to go to other country like Iraq & win a war. If you can't take care of your own, nobody wins actually!!!

[Pirate_RRRRRR_IIIIII]

Sigh, you have a greater chance of being hit by lightning than being killed by a terrorist act, real or false flag. In the US anyways.

[kokanezub]

funny how ppl look at it as killing ppl in war leads to victory.or the main reason for this war was to kill innocent people.

[Atheist Icon]

And its funny how ppl look at killing innocents is wrong when terrorists hide behind them...

Maybe we should just throw away the whole Geneva Conventions...you know...where it says CIVILIZED countries, when at war, will have UNIFORMED personel.

[Pirate_RRRRRR_IIIIII]

And its funny how ppl look at killing innocents is wrong when terrorists hide behind them...

Maybe we should just throw away the whole Geneva Conventions...you know...where it says CIVILIZED countries, when at war, will have UNIFORMED personel.

So we stoop to their level? O wait, we're already there. We did throw the Geneva Conventions away. Torture is ok though right? I mean we have to torture and humiliate our enemies for our freedoms, which they so dearly hate. I for one feel safer knowing this great country tortures prisoners and rapes little girls. O IM PROUD TO AN AMERICAN, WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW IM FREE! *Gag*

[Atheist Icon]

Geneva Conventions has defined that a Uniformed person, in a War, should they be captured shall have the right to food, water, medical, etc., etc.

Hate to say it, but white tunic and turban wearing, AK47 carrying populace that fire at US forces, and then hide in the crowd, do not fall under the Geneva Conventions.

[DwarfBaby]

So we stoop to their level? O wait, we're already there. We did throw the Geneva Conventions away. Torture is ok though right? I mean we have to torture and humiliate our enemies for our freedoms, which they so dearly hate. I for one feel safer knowing this great country tortures prisoners and rapes little girls. O IM PROUD TO AN AMERICAN, WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW IM FREE! *Gag*


Of course we are there already. How does your argument stand the test of truth. This world is again being divided into two. On one side you can believe in pretty much anything you want to believe. On the other side if you do not believe in what they want you to believe in, they will kill you and I dare you to ask for examples. This is not that much different from Christianity during the middle ages.

However this is the modern era and there is really no need regress back to the days of Saladin that these people so admire. However, both America and the terrorists seem to completely disregard the fact that Saladin only won because he always offered his enemy a way out. America's goal is to wipe out the terrorist's and the terrorist's goal is to wipe out America. There is no way out. For my part in this conflict I hope America wins. Mainly because I'm an Atheist and will never believe in Allah even at gun point, robes are so 12th century and fully covering women is about the stupidest Idea imaginable.

[don webb]

So we stoop to their level? O wait, we're already there. We did throw the Geneva Conventions away. Torture is ok though right? I mean we have to torture and humiliate our enemies for our freedoms, which they so dearly hate. I for one feel safer knowing this great country tortures prisoners and rapes little girls. O IM PROUD TO AN AMERICAN, WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW IM FREE! *Gag*

I beleave that torture and humiliation is a GREAT idea if it keeps us safe and free. HOWEVER, THERE WAS NO WIDE SPREAD TORTURE, HUMILIATION OR RAPE.........Here is a little history of this battle for you.

-- November 1979: Muslim extremists (Iranian variety) seized the U.S. embassy in Iran and held 52 American hostages for 444 days.

-- 1982: Muslim extremists (mostly Hezbollah) began a nearly decade-long habit of taking Americans and Europeans hostage in Lebanon, killing William Buckley and holding Terry Anderson for 6 1/2 years.

-- April 1983: Muslim extremists (Islamic Jihad or possibly Hezbollah) bombed the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 16 Americans.

-- October 1983: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) blew up the U.S. Marine barracks at the Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines.

-- December 1983: Muslim extremists (al-Dawa) blew up the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing five and injuring 80.

-- September 1984: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) exploded a truck bomb at the U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut, killing 24 people, including two U.S. servicemen.

-- December 1984: Muslim extremists (probably Hezbollah) hijacked a Kuwait Airways airplane, landed in Iran and demanded the release of the 17 members of al-Dawa who had been arrested for the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait, killing two Americans before the siege was over.

-- June 14, 1985: Muslim extremists (Hezbollah) hijacked TWA Flight 847 out of Athens, diverting it to Beirut, taking the passengers hostage in return for the release of the Kuwait 17 as well as another 700 prisoners held by Israel. When their demands were not met, the Muslims shot U.S. Navy diver Robert Dean Stethem and dumped his body on the tarmac.

-- October 1985: Muslim extremists (Palestine Liberation Front backed by Libya) seized an Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro, killing 69-year-old American Leon Klinghoffer by shooting him and then tossing his body overboard.

-- December 1985: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed airports in Rome and Vienna, killing 20 people, including five Americans.

-- April 1986: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed a discotheque frequented by U.S. servicemen in West Berlin, injuring hundreds and killing two, including a U.S. soldier.

-- December 1988: Muslim extremists (backed by Libya) bombed Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing all 259 on board and 11 on the ground.



-- February 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, possibly with involvement of friendly rival al Qaeda) set off a bomb in the basement of the World Trade Center, killing six and wounding more than 1,000.

-- Spring 1993: Muslim extremists (al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, the Sudanese Islamic Front and at least one member of Hamas) plot to blow up the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, the U.N. complex, and the FBI's lower Manhattan headquarters.

-- November 1995: Muslim extremists (possibly Iranian "Party of God") explode a car bomb at U.S. military headquarters in Saudi Arabia, killing five U.S. military servicemen.

-- June 1996: Muslim extremists (13 Saudis and a Lebanese member of Hezbollah, probably with involvement of al Qaeda) explode a truck bomb outside the Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds.

-- August 1998: Muslim extremists (al Qaeda) explode truck bombs at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, killing 224 and injuring thousands.

-- October 2000: Muslim extremists (al Qaeda) blow up the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 U.S. sailors.

-- Sept. 11, 2001: Muslim extremists (al Qaeda) hijack commercial aircraft and fly planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania, killing nearly 3,000 Americans.

If your reading this thank a Teacher, if your reading this in English thank a soldier

[YWD67]

So why then do we ignore the greatest threat to this nation right now, N. Korea. They have the nuclear capability, with the means to deliver them to parts of this country? They have threaded to do so and continue to test such means.
We invaded Iraq because of a so called iimmediate threat posed by the country trying to make a nuclear device. Which was a lie.
Where was the outrage and troop mobilization when 300,000 Burundis (Africa) were slaughtered in an ethnic cleansing campaign?
Why aren't we there making sure that they don't send terroist here to start a cleansing campaign?

[dftpnkezln]

Why do so many refuse to accept the fact that we are at war against an enemy that wants to kill us all, International Terrorism ?

You dont speak for me. Im not in a war against anyone - im neither with you nor against you, so deal with that.


Hezbollah engages in terrorism -- the deliberate targeting of Jewish civilians and others -- to achieve its goals. For the past month, Hezbollah has rained down thousands of rockets on Israel, deliberately maiming and killing innocent Israeli civilians. Hezbollah uses Lebanese civilians as human shields when it places its rockets in civilian areas, and is therefore responsible for many Lebanese casualties.

Hezbollah certainly has used terroristic tactics, but the identical ones to those which Israel used. Hezbollah targeted cities with Israeli military barracks indisciminately (much like Israel did) under the same demented logic that Israel used when it bombed apartment complexes where they alleged rockets were being fired from - one bad guy in the area condemns everyone else to death. Cooincidentally, this is also the same demented logic that suicide bombers have used in Israel when detonating their explosives aboard public buses frequented by IDF personnel - one 'bad' guy on board and its justifiable to attack. If you're going to be moralistic and self-righteous, at least do everyone the courtesy of doing it consistently for both sides.


And its funny how ppl look at killing innocents is wrong when terrorists hide behind them...

As I said, Hezbollah have used terroristic tactics, but no more (or less) terroristic than those the Israeli's employed in the recent campaign. The Israelis also violated international law by consistently and deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure (such as runways, ports and bridges) to apply pressure on the civilian population. Be morally consistent or dont bother.

Finally, I dont ordinarily pick at spelling and grammar, but I couldnt resist the irony in:


If your reading this thank a Teacher, if your reading this in English thank a soldier

Nobody is thanking 'your' teacher mate.
:icon_salu

[meyou123]

Well, their goals included eliminating Hezbollah as a threat to Israeli security.

A. PROVE that statement! You wiil NOT find it that Isreal wanted to eliminate hezbolah, but rather secure the border (which they absolutely DID!) and keep missles from being fired at their homeland.



b, trying to force the Lebanese government to enforce the relevant UN agreements calling for Hezbollah to be disarmed (how ironic it is for Israel of all countries, to go to war to enforce UN agreements - considering its been in violation of one for almost 40 years and half a dozen since),.

Gee... how IRONIC it is for hezbolah to declare Israel their enemy and start to kindnap two of their soliders and throw missles across thier border. You want to talk VIOLATIONS? I would say that was a violation if I ever saw one, they asked for a war with Israel and they got it. It was not Isreal that started this...it WAS Hezbolah!


recover her kidnapped soldiers (doubly ironic for Israel, a serial kidnapper of Palestinians and Lebanese) and defend her territory against incursions (with this, irony loses all meaning - the occupier of Palestinian territory for 40 years, Lebanese territory for 20 etc...becomes the defender of the concept of sovereignty of the nation state).

B. And as far as their soliders are concerned, hezbolah wants to make a trade, a trade they did not want to make before all of this began I would hardly call that defeat.

C. So I guess you think that hezbolah was just defending itself against Isreael? Now I have heard everything! For your information, the reason that Israel had all of these "incursions" in the first place was because hezbolah kept sending SUICIDE BOMBERS across it's border to Isreal! The hezbolah and the palestineans in years past have dione this over and over. So don't give me bullshit about Isreal being the one that is causing the aggression!



On at least three (arguably all) of these goals, they failed miserably.)

No they didn't that is only your twisted sense of reality.

Hezbollah may have been (temporarily) pushed out of operating from the south (although, considering Hezbollah are a grass-roots movement who have arisen from within the people, its hard to see how they can be 'pushed out' permanently) but as compensation they've gained enormous credence throughout the region for actually staying on the battlefield with Israel for almost a month - something that entire coalitions of Arab states havent managed in the past. In doing so, theyve strengthened their future prospects as a national force (support for Hezbollah against the Israeli's was as high as 80% across all ethnicities in Lebanon), a regional force (witness: Hezbollah flags on the streets of Baghdad) as well as shattered the myth of invulnerability that Israel had built up through her succession of routs over the years. By betting so many chips and having their bluff called, Israel has potentially made it *more* likely that incursions on her territory will be conducted in the future. At the very least, theyve given a shot in the arm to collective Arab morale. As for the soldiers, Israel will negotiate to have them returned in exchange for some Hezbollah/Lebanese nationals - ie. exactly what Hezbollah was demanding to begin with.


For your information, as I said in my previous post....I don't see how hezbolah getting the hell bombed out of it and FORCING it to draw back is any kind of a victory! That is as funny as the guy in Iraq saying Saddam won and the marines being right across the street. Hezbolah didn';t win anything. And the arabs will tell their people anything if can make them look good.


I agree with you, this isnt a defeat for Israel...its a catastrophe for her.


Stop living in a dreamworld and come out sometime....you may see things as they are.

[Jared Moya]

So we stoop to their level? O wait, we're already there. We did throw the Geneva Conventions away. Torture is ok though right? I mean we have to torture and humiliate our enemies for our freedoms, which they so dearly hate. I for one feel safer knowing this great country tortures prisoners and rapes little girls. O IM PROUD TO AN AMERICAN, WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW IM FREE! *Gag*

Actually torture was and is legal in these cases as they are not LAWFUL COMBATANTS under the Geneva Convention.

And the rape of that poor little girl in Haditha(?) was a bunch of BS done by some idiot soldiers who deserve severe punsihment in their courts martial. You and I both know safety and rape have nothing to do with making us safer so try to leave it out of the argument. You tread on her memory by saying the US Govt had something to do with it and gives the monsters who did it an excuse that it was somehow sanctioned.


A. PROVE that statement! You wiil NOT find it that Isreal wanted to eliminate hezbolah, but rather secure the border (which they absolutely DID!) and keep missles from being fired at their homeland.




Gee... how IRONIC it is for hezbolah to declare Israel their enemy and start to kindnap two of their soliders and throw missles across thier border. You want to talk VIOLATIONS? I would say that was a violation if I ever saw one, they asked for a war with Israel and they got it. It was not Isreal that started this...it WAS Hezbolah!



B. And as far as their soliders are concerned, hezbolah wants to make a trade, a trade they did not want to make before all of this began I would hardly call that defeat.

C. So I guess you think that hezbolah was just defending itself against Isreael? Now I have heard everything! For your information, the reason that Israel had all of these "incursions" in the first place was because hezbolah kept sending SUICIDE BOMBERS across it's border to Isreal! The hezbolah and the palestineans in years past have dione this over and over. So don't give me bullshit about Isreal being the one that is causing the aggression!




No they didn't that is only your twisted sense of reality.

Hezbollah may have been (temporarily) pushed out of operating from the south (although, considering Hezbollah are a grass-roots movement who have arisen from within the people, its hard to see how they can be 'pushed out' permanently) but as compensation they've gained enormous credence throughout the region for actually staying on the battlefield with Israel for almost a month - something that entire coalitions of Arab states havent managed in the past. In doing so, theyve strengthened their future prospects as a national force (support for Hezbollah against the Israeli's was as high as 80% across all ethnicities in Lebanon), a regional force (witness: Hezbollah flags on the streets of Baghdad) as well as shattered the myth of invulnerability that Israel had built up through her succession of routs over the years. By betting so many chips and having their bluff called, Israel has potentially made it *more* likely that incursions on her territory will be conducted in the future. At the very least, theyve given a shot in the arm to collective Arab morale. As for the soldiers, Israel will negotiate to have them returned in exchange for some Hezbollah/Lebanese nationals - ie. exactly what Hezbollah was demanding to begin with.


For your information, as I said in my previous post....I don't see how hezbolah getting the hell bombed out of it and FORCING it to draw back is any kind of a victory! That is as funny as the guy in Iraq saying Saddam won and the marines being right across the street. Hezbolah didn';t win anything. And the arabs will tell their people anything if can make them look good.




Stop living in a dreamworld and come out sometime....you may see things as they are.

You know if you keep waking people up with facts, sanity and such you're going to have a real mess on your hands.. :)

[meyou123]

So we stoop to their level? O wait, we're already there. We did throw the Geneva Conventions away. Torture is ok though right? I mean we have to torture and humiliate our enemies for our freedoms, which they so dearly hate. I for one feel safer knowing this great country tortures prisoners and rapes little girls. O IM PROUD TO AN AMERICAN, WHERE AT LEAST I KNOW IM FREE! *Gag*


For your information, I don't agree with the torture of islamist extremists in prison nor do I agree with what happened in Iraq where those soliders killed those civilians, I think they should be punished..... but I sure as HELL don't agree with some COWARD getiing on a plane and running it into a building! Because that is all he is to me.... a stupid lowlife that doesn't have the BALLS to satnd up to someone else who can fight back! Or someone who likes to get on an Islamic site and show to the world how to cut the head off a person because they call them "infidels!" But I guess that was somehow justified in your eyes?

[ManaSmoker]

the jews need to get over world war 2. they should not be getting special treatment to this day because of what happened to them decades ago. I can't stand how the U.S. sides with Israel no matter what.

[Jared Moya]

the jews need to get over world war 2. they should not be getting special treatment to this day because of what happened to them decades ago. I can't stand how the U.S. sides with Israel no matter what.

Uh, Im speechless. Get over 6 million people gassed and baked in ovens? My god man. And what special treatment are they getting? Katyusha rockets lobbed into their cities? Suicide bombers galore? If theyre getting special treatment Id hate to see what normat treatment is. Oh I know, a gift-wrapped special delivery Iranian nuke. So, I guess yah Jews everywhere get over it and have them geiger counters at the ready.

[Unsueable Davey Brown]

It's hard to respond on Hizbullah's victory, because I'm not sure what they won. Perhaps if it was rated by category 1 to 10.

Propaganda

Hizbullah
Amongst Muslim states: 9
In Europe: 7
In North America: 5

Israel
Amongst Muslim states: 0
In Europe: 2
In North America: 5

Actual Damage of Opposition's Machinery of War

Hizbullah: 1/1000 (I'm being generous)

Israel: 6

Accomplishment of goals

Hizbullah: 9 (notice it's the same score as propaganda amongst Muslim nations)

Israel: 6 (notice it's the same score as damage to opposition's machinery of war)

[Pirate_RRRRRR_IIIIII]

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Torture is condoned and encouraged, rape is a means of torture. Unlawful combatants, thats funny, Wasnt George Washington an unlawful combatant at one time?

The point is torture is inhuman no matter who its being done to.At this point in human history it saddens me anyone would condone the torture of anyone else for any reason. Torture is not a good means to extract information, so that argument is faulty.

I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE FOR EITHER SIDE, I am pointing the fact out that we, the United States, are not above torture and we do in fact torture. So we sink to the terrorist level. We terrorize our own country through the propaganda laden MSM, whose only goal nowadays is to show us just how unsafe we with 24/7 terror news coverage.

So since both sides do the same things why are you only pointing out the other sides wrong doing? We may not suicide bomb, but we carpet bomb civilians. How many people have died in Iraq because of our invasion? Compare that to all the dead Israelis killed by suicide bombing or rocket attacks and throw in all the people who died on 9/11 and see which side killed more people.

[Jared Moya]

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Torture is condoned and encouraged, rape is a means of torture. Unlawful combatants, thats funny, Wasnt George Washington an unlawful combatant at one time?


Nobody's rape is sanctioned by the US Govt PERIOD! And if u have proof please come forward and tell somebody or pass it on to me and I can see that it gets floated to the right people.

And yes, Washington was an unlawful combatant, but I dont recall a Geneva Convention in effect at the time. :icon_king

[Pirate_RRRRRR_IIIIII]

Which side has killed more cilvilians, US or the Terrorist?

[kokanezub]

And its funny how ppl look at killing innocents is wrong when terrorists hide behind them.
kill the terrorists so not the ppl the ppl dnt wana die. u wanna die if a terrorist was hiding under your house without u knowing?

[kokanezub]

the jews need to get over world war 2. they should not be getting special treatment to this day because of what happened to them decades ago. I can't stand how the U.S. sides with Israel no matter what.

i can double that

[dftpnkezln]

A. PROVE that statement! You wiil NOT find it that Isreal wanted to eliminate hezbolah, but rather secure the border (which they absolutely DID!) and keep missles from being fired at their homeland.

Gladly. (By the way, my post said "eliminate hezbollah as a threat to Israeli Security" not "eliminate hezbollah")
Here is a Washington Post Article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/18/AR2006071801436_pf.html
which quotes a retired Israeli Army Colonel as characterising the campaign thusly: "Israel is attempting to create a rift between the Lebanese population and Hezbollah supporters by exacting a heavy price from the elite in Beirut. The message is: If you want your air conditioning to work and if you want to be able to fly to Paris for shopping, you must pull your head out of the sand and take action toward shutting down Hezbollah-land."

So, whether you agree that this is a worthwile objective or not, this was the objective - to eliminate Hezbollah as a threat to Israeli security by destroying its rocket capability and forcing the Lebanese people (by illegal means like targeting civilian infrastructure) to disarm them. As I said in an earlier post:


Hezbollah may have been (temporarily) pushed out of operating from the south (although, considering Hezbollah are a grass-roots movement who have arisen from within the people, its hard to see how they can be 'pushed out' permanently) but as compensation they've gained enormous credence throughout the region for actually staying on the battlefield with Israel for almost a month - something that entire coalitions of Arab states havent managed in the past. In doing so, theyve strengthened their future prospects as a national force (support for Hezbollah against the Israeli's was as high as 80% across all ethnicities in Lebanon), a regional force (witness: Hezbollah flags on the streets of Baghdad) as well as shattered the myth of invulnerability that Israel had built up through her succession of routs over the years.

Hezbollah are part of the Lebanese community (particularly of the south) so it is impossible to 'eliminate it' from those areas permanently without ethnically cleansing the area. I wont repeat myself, but that quoted segment of my post outlines exactly why I think Israel hasnt attained any measure of longterm security at all in its recent action.


Gee... how IRONIC it is for hezbolah to declare Israel their enemy and start to kindnap two of their soliders and throw missles across thier border. You want to talk VIOLATIONS? I would say that was a violation if I ever saw one, they asked for a war with Israel and they got it. It was not Isreal that started this...it WAS Hezbolah!


You didnt address any of the hypocrisies contained within Israel claiming to be enforcing respect for the sovereignty of the nation state whilst it continually violates Internationally recognised Palestinian territory and (even before all this began) regularly flew into Lebanese sovereign airspace. If you want to equate Hezbollah's hypocrisies with Israel's, id be more inclined to agree - both have been equally hypocritical - its just that only one (Israel) has had its hypocrisy applauded by the US President.


B. And as far as their soliders are concerned, hezbolah wants to make a trade, a trade they did not want to make before all of this began I would hardly call that defeat.

Im sorry, but you need to check your sources (or not make half-assed assumptions based on no evidence). Hezbollah were demanding a prisoner exchange well before Israel started bombing:

http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Palestine/200711
Which says:
Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said Wednesday evening that a prisoner exchange was the only way to win the release of two captured Israeli soldiers, who he said were being held in a "secure and remote" location. "No military operation will return them," Nasrallah told a news conference in Beirut. "The prisoners will not be returned except through one way: indirect negotiations and a trade.

That statement was made on the 12th of July. The first Israeli bombs fell on the 13th. Check your facts before posting.


C. So I guess you think that hezbolah was just defending itself against Isreael? Now I have heard everything! For your information, the reason that Israel had all of these "incursions" in the first place was because hezbolah kept sending SUICIDE BOMBERS across it's border to Isreal! The hezbolah and the palestineans in years past have dione this over and over. So don't give me bullshit about Isreal being the one that is causing the aggression!

Are you sure this isnt a troll? Hezbollah havent used Suicide Bombers against Israel since the mid 1980's (1986 - correct me if im wrong). Meanwhile, Israel occupied Southern Lebanon for 18 years (82-2000), directly leading to the creation of Hezbollah to resist the occupation. Israel has been occupying large segments of Palestinian territory since 1967 (in contravention of international law, opinion and UN resolutions). It continues to occupy Syrian/Lebanese land at Shebaa Farms, routinely violates Lebanese airspace with Military aircraft, and has been alleged (although not proven) to have been arming right wing christian militias in the south of Lebanon. Yes, Israel has been causing much of the recent aggression.



For your information, as I said in my previous post....I don't see how hezbolah getting the hell bombed out of it and FORCING it to draw back is any kind of a victory! That is as funny as the guy in Iraq saying Saddam won and the marines being right across the street. Hezbolah didn';t win anything. And the arabs will tell their people anything if can make them look good.

I already explained why its a catastrophe for Israel and backed it up with several points. You weren't even aware that Hezbollah had been calling for a prisoner exchange prior to the bombing commencing, so I hardly think you're in much of an informed position to argue. Put down the remote control, switch off FOX news, and do some reading of your own.


Soulxtc:

Uh, Im speechless. Get over 6 million people gassed and baked in ovens? My god man. And what special treatment are they getting? Katyusha rockets lobbed into their cities? Suicide bombers galore? If theyre getting special treatment Id hate to see what normat treatment is. Oh I know, a gift-wrapped special delivery Iranian nuke. So, I guess yah Jews everywhere get over it and have them geiger counters at the ready.

Yes the Holocaust was horrific, no, noone should ever forget it - but it doesnt apply to this situation at all. Arabs didnt participate in the Holocaust, but despite this there is a tendency for people to bring it up on every occasion that criticism of Israeli foreign policy is made. Might I suggest that you look past your (completely understandable and mutually felt) sympathy for Jewish victims of the Holocaust and look at the present day more neutrally? As im sure you might be aware, about ten times more Lebanese civilians died during this recent campaign than Israelis (the vast bulk of whom were Military personnel), and a similar ratio occurs in the Israel/Palestine conflict. You're not siding with the oppressed underdogs here.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Are you sure this isnt a troll?

Soulxtc and meyou are the same person! lol

[Theinfamousone]

"the jews need to get over world war 2. they should not be getting special treatment to this day because of what happened to them decades ago. I can't stand how the U.S. sides with Israel no matter what."

If I'm not mistaken the US dolls billions to Israel's military, billions that could be used for student financial aid and a million other worthy causes

[Theinfamousone]

Which side has killed more cilvilians, US or the Terrorist?

Probably hard to say at this point, but it's kind of like asking the question,

"Which costs Americans more money, speeding tickets/insurance hikes because of them/tax payer dollars burned on officers' wages and patrol cars/gas maintenance etc used to dispense them., or vehicle damage/lives caused by accidents due to speeding?"

It doesn't really matter, it would ncie if we could get rid of atleast one, but the sad fact is that without anyone keeping the terrorists in some kind of check, there's no telling what would happen to us, the muslim extremist would probably walk right into our country and kill every last one of us "infidels". I've been in countries where there aren't any traffic laws enforced, and believe me, accidents and collisions increase by 100 fold.

[meyou123]

Gladly. (By the way, my post said "eliminate hezbollah as a threat to Israeli Security" not "eliminate hezbollah")


That SOUNDS EXACTLY like WHAT I said! "! You wiil NOT find it that Isreal wanted to eliminate hezbolah, but rather secure the border (which they absolutely DID!) and keep missles from being fired at their homeland." .....THAT is exactly what I said! Let's be clear here.

And how exactly did they fail their goal of not driving out hezbolah from the border? THEY DID THAT!

"The move into Bint Jbail, about 2.5 miles from the border, represents the spear point of Israel’s advance, moving forward from Maroun al-Ras, a frontier village captured in more heavy fighting over the weekend.
At the same time, Israeli forces were working to destroy every Hezbollah post within a half mile of the 40-mile Israeli-Lebanese border, Israeli Maj. Gen. Gadi Eizenkot said."

And if you want links? I can play that game too
SCOURCE:
http://www.sacunion.com/pages/world/articles/8322/


So, whether you agree that this is a worthwile objective or not, this was the objective - to eliminate Hezbollah as a threat to Israeli security by destroying its rocket capability and forcing the Lebanese people (by illegal means like targeting civilian infrastructure) to disarm them.

No YOU are WRONG! They werre not trying to target the lebanese people... what are you smoking? If you really want to know the ugly truth about why they hit civilians I'll give you a link and tell you why...BECAUSE THE HEZBOLAH PLANTED CIVILIANS WHERE THEY WERE AS HUMAN SHIELDS!

'Disabled children placed inside building'

"We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.

... "There were 15 physically or mentally handicapped children among the children killed in Qana," said Bahia Hariri, who represents south Lebanon.

SCOURCE:
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/08/did_hezbollah_d.html

So don't give me this bullshit about hezbollah being some kind of angels!! I don't buy it.







You didnt address any of the hypocrisies contained within Israel claiming to be enforcing respect for the sovereignty of the nation state whilst it continually violates Internationally recognised Palestinian territory and (even before all this began) regularly flew into Lebanese sovereign airspace. If you want to equate Hezbollah's hypocrisies with Israel's, id be more inclined to agree - both have been equally hypocritical - its just that only one (Israel) has had its hypocrisy applauded by the US President.

YOU have not addressed the hypocrisies of Hezbolah putting innocent childern in harms way where they can be bombed! Nor have you adressed the FACT that Hezbolah refuses to recognise Isreal as a nation:
QUOTE:That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.
Hassan Nasrallah
Scource:http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hassannasr326364.html






Im sorry, but you need to check your sources (or not make half-assed assumptions based on no evidence). Hezbollah were demanding a prisoner exchange well before Israel started bombing:

http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Palestine/200711
Which says:
Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said Wednesday evening that a prisoner exchange was the only way to win the release of two captured Israeli soldiers, who he said were being held in a "secure and remote" location. "No military operation will return them," Nasrallah told a news conference in Beirut. "The prisoners will not be returned except through one way: indirect negotiations and a trade.That statement was made on the 12th of July. The first Israeli bombs fell on the 13th. Check your facts before posting.

Why don;'t YOU check YOUR facts ? And stop making half assed assumptions about hezbolah being some kind of innocent in all of this? I notice how you put up a website dedicated to an ARAB point of view. That is NOT a neutral website and I don't consider it as such. Sorry, but your facts are flawed!

OK lets talk facts :FACT Hezbolah refuses to recognise Isreal FACT: Hezbolah is accused of using children and putting them in harms way just so they can COWARDLY be the ones to say there were civilians where Isreal bombed knowing full well that it was HEZBOLAH that were the ones responsible for planing them there. FACT: Hezbolah started all of this with the kidnapping of two Isreali soliders! And THEN sending bombs across the border of Isreal! Sorry, but those ARE facts!








Are you sure this isnt a troll? Hezbollah havent used Suicide Bombers against Israel since the mid 1980's (1986 - correct me if im wrong). Meanwhile, Israel occupied Southern Lebanon for 18 years (82-2000), directly leading to the creation of Hezbollah to resist the occupation. Israel has been occupying large segments of Palestinian territory since 1967 (in contravention of international law, opinion and UN resolutions). It continues to occupy Syrian/Lebanese land at Shebaa Farms, routinely violates Lebanese airspace with Military aircraft, and has been alleged (although not proven) to have been arming right wing christian militias in the south of Lebanon. Yes, Israel has been causing much of the recent aggression.


Gee...so I guess THAT gives Hezbolah the right to kidnap two Israeli soliders and start a war by sending missles across to Israel?

And lets also talk about Shebaa farms, Isreal has said that it was UP TO SYRIA and syria so far HAS REJECTED That !!
SCOURCE:http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23843
"The “liberation” of the Shebaa Farm
"Hezbollah had wanted the Shebaa Farms free of Israeli troops. The resolution again only calls only for the delineation of the border between Israel and Lebanon in the Shebaa Farms. This requires Syria to deliver on officially ceding sovereignty back to Lebanon, a demand Syria has constantly rejected in the past. Meanwhile, Shebaa remains under Israeli control.
The subservient Lebanese government had wanted the resolution to place Shebaa under U.N. control. Shebaa will remain under Israeli control."


I already explained why its a catastrophe for Israel and backed it up with several points. You weren't even aware that Hezbollah had been calling for a prisoner exchange prior to the bombing commencing, so I hardly think you're in much of an informed position to argue. Put down the remote control, switch off FOX news, and do some reading of your own.


Mabye you should do some reading. And get facts not fantasy! Here is a good link if you have the balls to read it.But I don't think you do.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23843

It basically explains WHY Hezbolah did not win the fight. 'nuff said.





Yes the Holocaust was horrific, no, noone should ever forget it - but it doesnt apply to this situation at all. Arabs didnt participate in the Holocaust, but despite this there is a tendency for people to bring it up on every occasion that criticism of Israeli foreign policy is made. Might I suggest that you look past your (completely understandable and mutually felt) sympathy for Jewish victims of the Holocaust and look at the present day more neutrally? As im sure you might be aware, about ten times more Lebanese civilians died during this recent campaign than Israelis (the vast bulk of whom were Military personnel), and a similar ratio occurs in the Israel/Palestine conflict. You're not siding with the oppressed underdogs here.

There you go with more bullshit. It was the Hezbolah that PLACED childern in areas they KNEW that Isrreal would bomb...so who is the terrorists now?

[meyou123]

Soulxtc and meyou are the same person! lol

Get over yourself, you only THINK you are funny. But you sound like a troll.


"the jews need to get over world war 2. they should not be getting special treatment to this day because of what happened to them decades ago. I can't stand how the U.S. sides with Israel no matter what."

If I'm not mistaken the US dolls billions to Israel's military, billions that could be used for student financial aid and a million other worthy causes


Oh yeah, like Isreal is not surrounded by enemies that would just love to see their country occupied. If I am not mistaken the US also has homeless, mentally ill people and the list goes on...so what is your point?


the jews need to get over world war 2. they should not be getting special treatment to this day because of what happened to them decades ago. I can't stand how the U.S. sides with Israel no matter what.


I hope someone says that about YOU when you have a mom or dad that is gassed in a chamber! I can't stand how some people always make it as if it is the US fault for all the worlds problems. I won't doubt for a minute that some of the problems are the US but not everything. and you really need to get your facts straight about the US siding with Isreal on everything. That is simply a lie.

[YWD67]

Get over yourself, you only THINK you are funny. But you sound like a troll.
Get over yourself, he his funny, and so are you with your insultformative post. Just tell it with out the personal editorials about the other posters you are responding to.

And Mel, Love the comic book avatar. I am a fan of the Specter myself.:icon_thum

With that said back to the (hopefully civil) debate.

[meyou123]

Get over yourself, he his funny, and so are you with your insultformative post. Just tell it with out the personal editorials about the other posters you are responding to.

And Mel, Love the comic book avatar. I am a fan of the Specter myself.:icon_thum

With that said back to the (hopefully civil) debate.


Alright, you have had your say so I will have mine. I didn't think it was funny, now we have both had our say so lets let it drop shall we?

[dftpnkezln]

Hi!

Meyou123, I wish you would actually read the articles you post links to.


And if you want links? I can play that game too
SCOURCE:
http://www.sacunion.com/pages/world/articles/8322/

Your own article agrees with me:
"The tangled knots in the negotiations meant fighting was likely to drag on just as the pace of Hezbollah rockets raining down on Israel shows no signs of letting up despite the aerial bombardment of its positions. Air power alone is proving insufficient to rout the guerrillas, who are tough opponents on the ground as well. Mideast observers say Hezbollah only has to remain standing _ not beat Israel _ to emerge victorious in Arab eyes.
"

Now, maybe im imagining things, but that sounds pretty consistent alongside what I said:


they've gained enormous credence throughout the region for actually staying on the battlefield with Israel for almost a month - something that entire coalitions of Arab states havent managed in the past. In doing so, theyve strengthened their future prospects as a national force (support for Hezbollah against the Israeli's was as high as 80% across all ethnicities in Lebanon), a regional force (witness: Hezbollah flags on the streets of Baghdad) as well as shattered the myth of invulnerability that Israel had built up through her succession of routs over the years.

In simpler terms - counting numbers of dead/wounded/damage done isnt any way to determine who has 'gained' the most out of this conflict. You need to look at the relative strength of both parties (Israel is the regional super-power, Hezbollah only a militia - its the equivalent of a Featherweight boxer going 12 rounds with the Heavyweight World Champion.) Also, you should recognise that Israel has recieved extremely negative world-wide publicity as a result of her campaign (whether you feel thats justified or not), whilst Hezbollah has managed to gain significant amounts of kudos across the Middle East, even bridging the Sunni/Shiite divide.


No YOU are WRONG! They werre not trying to target the lebanese people... what are you smoking? If you really want to know the ugly truth about why they hit civilians I'll give you a link and tell you why...BECAUSE THE HEZBOLAH PLANTED CIVILIANS WHERE THEY WERE AS HUMAN SHIELDS!

Do you have any semi-credible sources for this allegation? Im sorry, but a right-leaning blog site with the tagline "carnivorous conservative" normally doesnt meet many reasonable people's standards of an objective source. It would be like me posting a link from "Commie-tree-huggers-who-hate-freedom.org".


YOU have not addressed the hypocrisies of Hezbolah putting innocent childern in harms way where they can be bombed! Nor have you adressed the FACT that Hezbolah refuses to recognise Isreal as a nation:
QUOTE:That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.
Hassan Nasrallah

Thats correct, Hezbollah dont recognise Israel as a nation (I dont mean to be petty, but when you are consistently misspelling the name of the country you are supposedly arguing in favour of, it undermines your case a little bit), but nor does Israel recognise the full state of Palestine or the sovereignty of the Lebanese nation. The point here is that neither side can claim the moral high ground and pretend to be upholding any fundamental aspects of International law or upholding regional stability.
Hezbollah have some quite extreme aspects to their ideology, but a reasonable student of the region would concede that most of the Islamist groups would be likely to moderate their rhetoric if there could be a just settlement to these major issues. Instead, as I am confident you will witness in the coming months and years, Hezbollah have been gifted an enormous public relations coup in the region and will likely recieve many more new members as a result of Israels ham-fisted response to the kidnapping of two soldiers which it could have secured the release of via indirect negotiation.

Regarding your final points, I read the article you 'dared' me to look at, and I can only say that the poorly written and argued document you linked me to must be a sign that Frontpage are lifting their standards from abysmal to dreadful. If you are a fan of/an avid reader of Frontpage Magazine, then it doesnt surprise me that you werent aware of some key aspects of this incident like Hezbollah's pre-bombing demand for negotiations to exchange prisoners or the lack of evidence to support the 'Hezbollah use human shields' myth. Frontpage is a publication almost as notoriously biased as the aforementioned Commie-tree-huggers-who-hate-freedom.org, only with less professionalism.
As for Hezbollah, hate what they stand for by all means, argue against their activities all you like - but dont just make stuff up or ignore key facts that dont suit your case.


I won't doubt for a minute that some of the problems are the US but not everything. and you really need to get your facts straight about the US siding with Isreal on everything. That is simply a lie.

Its a mild exaggeration, but only just. Perhaps you would care to list some key issues where the US hasnt sided with Israel in the past 20 years?

[kerjodando]

Hi!

Meyou123, I wish you would actually read the articles you post links to.



Your own article agrees with me:
"The tangled knots in the negotiations meant fighting was likely to drag on just as the pace of Hezbollah rockets raining down on Israel shows no signs of letting up despite the aerial bombardment of its positions. Air power alone is proving insufficient to rout the guerrillas, who are tough opponents on the ground as well. Mideast observers say Hezbollah only has to remain standing _ not beat Israel _ to emerge victorious in Arab eyes.
"

Now, maybe im imagining things, but that sounds pretty consistent alongside what I said:



In simpler terms - counting numbers of dead/wounded/damage done isnt any way to determine who has 'gained' the most out of this conflict. You need to look at the relative strength of both parties (Israel is the regional super-power, Hezbollah only a militia - its the equivalent of a Featherweight boxer going 12 rounds with the Heavyweight World Champion.) Also, you should recognise that Israel has recieved extremely negative world-wide publicity as a result of her campaign (whether you feel thats justified or not), whilst Hezbollah has managed to gain significant amounts of kudos across the Middle East, even bridging the Sunni/Shiite divide.



Do you have any semi-credible sources for this allegation? Im sorry, but a right-leaning blog site with the tagline "carnivorous conservative" normally doesnt meet many reasonable people's standards of an objective source. It would be like me posting a link from "Commie-tree-huggers-who-hate-freedom.org".



Thats correct, Hezbollah dont recognise Israel as a nation (I dont mean to be petty, but when you are consistently misspelling the name of the country you are supposedly arguing in favour of, it undermines your case a little bit), but nor does Israel recognise the full state of Palestine or the sovereignty of the Lebanese nation. The point here is that neither side can claim the moral high ground and pretend to be upholding any fundamental aspects of International law or upholding regional stability.
Hezbollah have some quite extreme aspects to their ideology, but a reasonable student of the region would concede that most of the Islamist groups would be likely to moderate their rhetoric if there could be a just settlement to these major issues. Instead, as I am confident you will witness in the coming months and years, Hezbollah have been gifted an enormous public relations coup in the region and will likely recieve many more new members as a result of Israels ham-fisted response to the kidnapping of two soldiers which it could have secured the release of via indirect negotiation.

Regarding your final points, I read the article you 'dared' me to look at, and I can only say that the poorly written and argued document you linked me to must be a sign that Frontpage are lifting their standards from abysmal to dreadful. If you are a fan of/an avid reader of Frontpage Magazine, then it doesnt surprise me that you werent aware of some key aspects of this incident like Hezbollah's pre-bombing demand for negotiations to exchange prisoners or the lack of evidence to support the 'Hezbollah use human shields' myth. Frontpage is a publication almost as notoriously biased as the aforementioned Commie-tree-huggers-who-hate-freedom.org, only with less professionalism.
As for Hezbollah, hate what they stand for by all means, argue against their activities all you like - but dont just make stuff up or ignore key facts that dont suit your case.



Its a mild exaggeration, but only just. Perhaps you would care to list some key issues where the US hasnt sided with Israel in the past 20 years?

Incredible post.

Please stick around.

You are the perfect antidote to the right-wing US centric leaning that have often plagued discussion in this website.

Well done

[dftpnkezln]

Thanks mate, I think I will.

[Pirate_RRRRRR_IIIIII]

Probably hard to say at this point, but it's kind of like asking the question,

"Which costs Americans more money, speeding tickets/insurance hikes because of them/tax payer dollars burned on officers' wages and patrol cars/gas maintenance etc used to dispense them., or vehicle damage/lives caused by accidents due to speeding?"

It doesn't really matter, it would ncie if we could get rid of atleast one, but the sad fact is that without anyone keeping the terrorists in some kind of check, there's no telling what would happen to us, the muslim extremist would probably walk right into our country and kill every last one of us "infidels". I've been in countries where there aren't any traffic laws enforced, and believe me, accidents and collisions increase by 100 fold.

Ok you need to stop watching FOX NEWS. Its rotting your reasoning. THE MUSLIM WORLD CANT WALK INTO THIS COUNTRY, if you havent looked at a globe lately, the middle east and the US are seperated by thousands of miles of ocean. Your analogy is horrible. There arent nearly as many terrorist as Bush would have us believe, but rest assured with the way this empirical country is acting thats sure to change out of necessity. Keep this in mind, more terrorist were created through the Iraq invasion than at any time previous. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3451239.stm

You said yourself its hard to say who has killed more civilians, that in itself is disturbing. Where do you get your news from? If its US media, that explains alot. Believe it or not the MSM lies on a daily basis and spins and spins and spins, dont buy into it. Look at independant news and foriegn news sources for balance.

[nukehella]

So why then do we ignore the greatest threat to this nation right now, N. Korea. They have the nuclear capability, with the means to deliver them to parts of this country? They have threaded to do so and continue to test such means.


It's because if a sparrow was to take off from a tree in North Korea we would know which bird,which tree and we could blow it out of the air in a heartbeat,giving us the right to kick Lil' Kim Jongs ass,China be damned.China needs us,we need them.Neither of us need N Korea.
He knows it and we know it.
The highly publicized missile interceptor tests last week were just smoke.The technology has existed for years.It's in place.it works and when it's unveiled it's going to be like Oprah on a ham.

[meyou123]

Hi!

[QUOTE=dftpnkezln]Meyou123, I wish you would actually read the articles you post links to.?

Well you need to learn to read period. I DID read the articles and that is why I posted them, but in YOUR eyes all you can see is YOUR view..... NOT the truth! Mabye someday you will.


Your own article agrees with me:
"The tangled knots in the negotiations meant fighting was likely to drag on just as the pace of Hezbollah rockets raining down on Israel shows no signs of letting up despite the aerial bombardment of its positions. Air power alone is proving insufficient to rout the guerrillas, who are tough opponents on the ground as well. Mideast observers say Hezbollah only has to remain standing _ not beat Israel _ to emerge victorious in Arab eyes.
"
Now, maybe im imagining things, but that sounds pretty consistent alongside what I said:
In simpler terms - counting numbers of dead/wounded/damage done isnt any way to determine who has 'gained' the most out of this conflict. You need to look at the relative strength of both parties (Israel is the regional super-power, Hezbollah only a militia - its the equivalent of a Featherweight boxer going 12 rounds with the Heavyweight World Champion.) Also, you should recognise that Israel has recieved extremely negative world-wide publicity as a result of her campaign (whether you feel thats justified or not), whilst Hezbollah has managed to gain significant amounts of kudos across the Middle East, even bridging the Sunni/Shiite divide..

I frankly fail to see how that article agrees that Isreal lost the war with hezbolah. You want to try and explain that? And it SAID "Hezbollah only has to remain standing _ not beat Israel _ to emerge victorious in ARAB EYES" Do you understand that statement? Can you comphrend what they are saying? They are saying in ARAB eyes....NOT the WORLD view or the actual TRUTH of who won! That is not the truth and the Arabs can tell themselves lies all day......that does not make it the truth, period!

That articles also said (if you would read it)
"Backed by tanks, Israeli troops battled their way to a key Hezbollah stronghold in south Lebanon on Monday, seizing a hilltop in heavy fighting and capturing two guerrillas. "

Doesn't sound to me like Hezbolah is the winner.


Do you have any semi-credible sources for this allegation? Im sorry, but a right-leaning blog site with the tagline "carnivorous conservative" normally doesnt meet many reasonable people's standards of an objective source. It would be like me posting a link from "Commie-tree-huggers-who-hate-freedom.org".

Oh gee...and I am supposed to take that site you posted as truth? (this site: http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Palestine/200711)
Sorry, But I do not consider that site with a pointedly arab point of view to be "fair" either! So Do YOU have any credible scources other than what you posted? That is like posting a link from Osama Bin Laden and thinking it is going to give a fair assesment of what actually happened!




Thats correct, Hezbollah dont recognise Israel as a nation (I dont mean to be petty, but when you are consistently misspelling the name of the country you are supposedly arguing in favour of, it undermines your case a little bit),".


Listen, I mispelled a name .. you want to bitch about that and not argue about the real issue that is your problem...not mine. And all you are trying to to is start a bitchfest. Now I am sorry, but you have not proven one thing that I have not countered. And I frankly don't CARE if you like my spelling or not, if you think I am worried about what that meansd to you, you are sadly mistaken.


but nor does Israel recognise the full state of Palestine or the sovereignty of the Lebanese nation. The point here is that neither side can claim the moral high ground and pretend to be upholding any fundamental aspects of International law or upholding regional stability.)

Actually Israel has thrown it's own people out of the gaza strip so it COULD have peace with it's neghbors! But I guessed you missed it because you had your head in the sand. What have the Hezbolah done besides decalare that Israel does not have a right to exsist?
SCOURCE:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2005/08/gaza_settlers_b.html

Lets see you come up with something that Hezbolah did to try and have peace!





ezbollah have some quite extreme aspects to their ideology, but a reasonable student of the region would concede that most of the Islamist groups would be likely to moderate their rhetoric if there could be a just settlement to these major issues. Instead, as I am confident you will witness in the coming months and years, Hezbollah have been gifted an enormous public relations coup in the region and will likely recieve many more new members as a result of Israels ham-fisted response to the kidnapping of two soldiers which it could have secured the release of via indirect negotiation.

EXTREME ASPECTS? Oh, you mean like denying Israel the right to exsist kidnapping two of their soliders or sending missles across their border? Yeah, just a LITTLE extreme! You really need to look at the facts. They started this and they paid a high price for it. They WANTED war and they got it. I don't know what planet you are from, but on this one if you kidnap two soliders of a forign country, that is not a very good way to state peaceful intentions. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing and there was NO EXCUSE for it! If they really wanted their own prisoners released that was not a very smart way of going about it. Slapping someone in the head and then asking them for something is a stupid way of getting what you want!


Regarding your final points, I read the article you 'dared' me to look at, and I can only say that the poorly written and argued document you linked me to must be a sign that Frontpage are lifting their standards from abysmal to dreadful. If you are a fan of/an avid reader of Frontpage Magazine, then it doesnt surprise me that you werent aware of some key aspects of this incident like Hezbollah's pre-bombing demand for negotiations to exchange prisoners or the lack of evidence to support the 'Hezbollah use human shields' myth. Frontpage is a publication almost as notoriously biased as the aforementioned Commie-tree-huggers-who-hate-freedom.org, only with less professionalism.
As for Hezbollah, hate what they stand for by all means, argue against their activities all you like - but dont just make stuff up or ignore key facts that dont suit your case. .


So you want me to take the arab site you gave ME and call that TRUTH? It also says what you are about...you want to believe what you believe weather or not it is the truth. And I do not read that magazine, though I see YOU jump to conclusions way too much. I simply found a link and posted it as it was about what was being discussed. You took it and acted like I was a subscriber though I was not. If you act like that over a magazine article, how do i know you haven't already jumped to the wrong conclusions over this war? Think about that.


Its a mild exaggeration, but only just. Perhaps you would care to list some key issues where the US hasnt sided with Israel in the past 20 years?

Well perhaps YOU could tell ME what Hezbolah has EVER done to promote peace with Israel?

[meyou123]

Incredible post.

Please stick around.

You are the perfect antidote to the right-wing US centric leaning that have often plagued discussion in this website.

Well done

Oh yeah we need more america bashers here on ZP! About like we need another hitler.

[Theinfamousone]

Oh yeah, like Isreal is not surrounded by enemies that would just love to see their country occupied. If I am not mistaken the US also has homeless, mentally ill people and the list goes on...so what is your point?

Yes, Israel would have been taken over faster than your body would get sick without an immune system if the US wasn't flushing billions of dollars down this never ending toilet we call an ally. I guess I don't know exactly all that we're gaining from it, but it seems like we would be better able to use those funds and leave Israel to fend for itself just like the rest of the world has to.

[dftpnkezln]

I frankly fail to see how that article agrees that Isreal lost the war with hezbolah. You want to try and explain that? And it SAID "Hezbollah only has to remain standing _ not beat Israel _ to emerge victorious in ARAB EYES" Do you understand that statement? Can you comphrend what they are saying? They are saying in ARAB eyes....NOT the WORLD view or the actual TRUTH of who won! That is not the truth and the Arabs can tell themselves lies all day......that does not make it the truth, period!

Mate, this is the third time ive tried to explain to you the very simple meaning of what I originally said -



In simpler terms - counting numbers of dead/wounded/damage done isnt any way to determine who has 'gained' the most out of this conflict. You need to look at the relative strength of both parties (Israel is the regional super-power, Hezbollah only a militia - its the equivalent of a Featherweight boxer going 12 rounds with the Heavyweight World Champion.) Also, you should recognise that Israel has recieved extremely negative world-wide publicity as a result of her campaign (whether you feel thats justified or not), whilst Hezbollah has managed to gain significant amounts of kudos across the Middle East, even bridging the Sunni/Shiite divide..

Basically, Hezbollah are likely to gain increased standing in the region as a result of this recent conflict. That means they are likely to gain increased political and public support for their particular world-view. This could come in the way of funds, weapons, training or merely political cover - but theres no doubt that theyve gained a hell of a lot of credit for managing to 'stay in the ring' with Israel. Within Lebanon itself, its quite possible that Hezbollah will gain increased political influence as a result of this, being seen as the defenders of Lebanon as well as the work they have done in assisting people in the aftermath. That means that despite losing some of their rocket capability, they have traded it in for increased political leverage in Lebanon - which isnt a 'good' result for the Israelis. The fact that in 'arab eyes' they are percieved as having won is a victory in itself due to all the side benefits that will bring with it - do you understand now?


Oh gee...and I am supposed to take that site you posted as truth? (this site: http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Palestine/200711)
Sorry, But I do not consider that site with a pointedly arab point of view to be "fair" either! So Do YOU have any credible scources other than what you posted? That is like posting a link from Osama Bin Laden and thinking it is going to give a fair assesment of what actually happened!

That article isnt an opinion piece, its a report of what Nasrallah said regarding the kidnappings. If you would like some alternative reports which quote him saying the exact same thing, then here are just a few which you may have missed in your extensive reading about the conflict:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/13/africa/web.0712mideast.php
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1819122,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/06/world/main1868254.shtml
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2267864,00.html
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0607/12/sitroom.02.html


Actually Israel has thrown it's own people out of the gaza strip so it COULD have peace with it's neghbors! But I guessed you missed it because you had your head in the sand. What have the Hezbolah done besides decalare that Israel does not have a right to exsist?
SCOURCE:
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/bl...ettlers_b.html

Lets see you come up with something that Hezbolah did to try and have peace!

Yes, Israel certainly did evict some of the illegal settlers which it had illegally placed on internationally recognised Palestinian territory over the decades - it also unilaterally decided which parts of the internationally recognised Palestinian territory which it wouldnt return (and would annex), it also reserved the right for itself to control passage of Palestinians between their own towns, and reserved for itself much of the best land and water supplies in the region. Depicting Israel doing what the international community have been consistently demanding they do for the past 30 years (and even then, not fully) as an act of peace is akin to me breaking into your home and stealing all your furniture and then expecting a humanitarian award when I return a sofa.

If Israel truly desired peace with its neighbours, it would remove *all* settlements from the Internationally recognised Palestinian territories, stop prevaricating over the issue of East Jerusalem and stop trying to annex key elements of Palestinian land. No, all Israel did was stage a strategic withdrawal from areas which it considered too costly to maintain its occupation of, whilst reserving the right to re-invade at the drop of a hat.


EXTREME ASPECTS? Oh, you mean like denying Israel the right to exsist kidnapping two of their soliders or sending missles across their border? Yeah, just a LITTLE extreme! You really need to look at the facts. They started this and they paid a high price for it. They WANTED war and they got it. I don't know what planet you are from, but on this one if you kidnap two soliders of a forign country, that is not a very good way to state peaceful intentions. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing and there was NO EXCUSE for it! If they really wanted their own prisoners released that was not a very smart way of going about it. Slapping someone in the head and then asking them for something is a stupid way of getting what you want!

I already spoke about the extreme elements of Hezbollah ideology. My last post highlighted some of the extreme aspects of Israeli policy as well - a practical denial of Palestinian right to self determination, a complete disregard for its neighbours territorial sovereignty, the belief that it can target civilian infrastructure such as bridges/ports/ambulances/airports to increase pressure upon civilians.
Hezbollah were likely not expecting a war as a result of their actions, however as i've already argued, they gained significant advantages from it in the aftermath.
If you cant detect a common theme emerging here, its that neither Israel nor Hezbollah have the right to claim the moral high ground - Israel is certainly one of the last countries which can go around lecturing others on respecting territorial sovereignty, and Hezbollah cant walk around pretending to not have largely provoked this latest conflict.



So you want me to take the arab site you gave ME and call that TRUTH? It also says what you are about...you want to believe what you believe weather or not it is the truth.

I think ive put paid to that with the 5 seperate links from 5 seperate news organisations quoting the exact same statement. If you still think im 'believing the truth whether or not it is the truth' then I can supply a dozen more links in my next post if youd like.


And I do not read that magazine, though I see YOU jump to conclusions way too much. I simply found a link and posted it as it was about what was being discussed. You took it and acted like I was a subscriber though I was not. If you act like that over a magazine article, how do i know you haven't already jumped to the wrong conclusions over this war? Think about that.

I attacked the magazine, not you. Although I really do think it's odd that someone who considers themselves qualified enough to speak about this situation wasnt aware of some of the basic facts surrounding it. By the way, weren't you the one who got involved in a mini-flame war on this same thread with someone who made a friendly joke that you might be the same person as another poster?



Oh yeah we need more america bashers here on ZP! About like we need another hitler.

If you feel qualified to characterise me as an 'america-basher' based on one thread, would it then be fair that I characterise you as an 'arab-basher'?

[condorloco]

dftpnkezln well said!!!
kudos to you

[Unsueable Davey Brown]

dftpnkezln well said!!!
kudos to you

I'm a little less impressed. Sometimes I need rhetoric explained to me, because it tends to conflict with my understanding of history. For example this one.


it also unilaterally decided which parts of the internationally recognised Palestinian territory which it wouldnt return (and would annex)

What exactly is meant by Palestinian territory? In fact just so I know what exactly we,re talking about. What exact definition are we using for a Palestinian these days. What specific "internationally recognized" agreements are we talking about? I'm not sure the word "annex" really explains the full history of this. The word in it's naked self appears to imply Israel went into this palestinian territory of which you speak with the specific purpose of "annexing" it. Is that what happened? Give me a history lesson please. How did this annexing take place. Which specific areas are we talking about? Why am I supposed to feel sympathetic for these people who lay claim to captured territories like the Golan Heights, for example?

[meyou123]

Mate, this is the third time ive tried to explain to you the very simple meaning of what I originally said -?

Dude YOU are the one that is getting TIRESOME! I can understand what you said, I don't think you are right NOW for the THIRD TIME...do you understand that? Stop your bullshit and superiority, you are not impressing me at all.




Basically, Hezbollah are likely to gain increased standing in the region as a result of this recent conflict. That means they are likely to gain increased political and public support for their particular world-view. This could come in the way of funds, weapons, training or merely political cover - but theres no doubt that theyve gained a hell of a lot of credit for managing to 'stay in the ring' with Israel. Within Lebanon itself, its quite possible that Hezbollah will gain increased political influence as a result of this, being seen as the defenders of Lebanon as well as the work they have done in assisting people in the aftermath. That means that despite losing some of their rocket capability, they have traded it in for increased political leverage in Lebanon - which isnt a 'good' result for the Israelis. The fact that in 'arab eyes' they are percieved as having won is a victory in itself due to all the side benefits that will bring with it - do you understand now?

.. The ONLY credit they have gained is the arabs that would believe anything said against Israel in the first place! So you are dead wrong about their influence gaining them support in the world. God I really don't understand what it takes to get through to you. It is the arab world that believes this....NOT everyone else in the world. Is that so hard for you to grasp? That hardly makes anything you say a fact! And standing up to Isreal? Lets get the facts straight! They STARTED a WAR with Israel on purpose, simply because they do not recognise their right to exsist. And for that they should be treated as heroes? Sorry, not in my book and not in a lot of other peoples eyes either. Mabye in the eyes of those that already would never recognise Israel in the first place, but that hardly means anything!






That article isnt an opinion piece, its a report of what Nasrallah said regarding the kidnappings. If you would like some alternative reports which quote him saying the exact same thing, then here are just a few which you may have missed in your extensive reading about the conflict:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/13/africa/web.0712mideast.php
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1819122,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/06/world/main1868254.shtml
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2267864,00.html
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0607/12/sitroom.02.htmlI said that you used an arab scource that was biased in the first place! I satnd by that! Again get your facts straight.



Yes, Israel certainly did evict some of the illegal settlers which it had illegally placed on internationally recognised Palestinian territory over the decades - it also unilaterally decided which parts of the internationally recognised Palestinian territory which it wouldnt return (and would annex), it also reserved the right for itself to control passage of Palestinians between their own towns, and reserved for itself much of the best land and water supplies in the region. Depicting Israel doing what the international community have been consistently demanding they do for the past 30 years (and even then, not fully) as an act of peace is akin to me breaking into your home and stealing all your furniture and then expecting a humanitarian award when I return a sofa.

You are so full of MISINFORMATION it is really not funny. They were NOT ILLEGAL SETTLERS! Israel had taken over that property and it belonged to them! The only reason they evicted the settlers was because they wanted to have peace by giving that land back. They did not have to give anything back. But I guess you can't see that! No, to you all you can see is that they should not have been there, but they had EVERY RIGHT to be there! All the palestineans have done is send suicide bombers across it's borders to Israel...in case you can't read, that is the reason Israel invaded lebanon in the first place! And as far as the settlers are concerned, they were legal residents of a piece of land owned by Israel.


If Israel truly desired peace with its neighbours, it would remove *all* settlements from the Internationally recognised Palestinian territories, stop prevaricating over the issue of East Jerusalem and stop trying to annex key elements of Palestinian land. No, all Israel did was stage a strategic withdrawal from areas which it considered too costly to maintain its occupation of, whilst reserving the right to re-invade at the drop of a hat.

If the palestineans DESIRED any peace at all, they would stop Hezbolah from doing stupid things like kidnapping israeli soliders or sending rockets or suicide bombers across the border to Isreal. You argument is bullshit! They are the ones provoking this and they are the ones who are going to have to put an end to it. And as far as re-invade...you bet! And rightly so if the palestineans want to elect a group like Hezbolah and KNOWS that they do not recognise Israels right to exsist, then it is their fault! Israel has the right to defend itself.




already spoke about the extreme elements of Hezbollah ideology. My last post highlighted some of the extreme aspects of Israeli policy as well - a practical denial of Palestinian right to self determination, a complete disregard for its neighbours territorial sovereignty, the belief that it can target civilian infrastructure such as bridges/ports/ambulances/airports to increase pressure upon civilians.
Hezbollah were likely not expecting a war as a result of their actions, however as i've already argued, they gained significant advantages from it in the aftermath.
If you cant detect a common theme emerging here, its that neither Israel nor Hezbollah have the right to claim the moral high ground - Israel is certainly one of the last countries which can go around lecturing others on respecting territorial sovereignty, and Hezbollah cant walk around pretending to not have largely provoked this latest conflict.

Well for once I agree. I never said that Israel was perfect, but neither is Hezbolah. and the fact that they started this war with Israel by purposely kidnapping two of their soliders and then sending rockets across their border says that it was THEY who were at fault for starting this whole thing in the first place and there aws NO excuse for itI Hezbolah had a beef with Israel, they COULD have settled it another way. Now you talk about Israel giving up some of it's rights, then it sure as HELL is going to have to be the same for Hezbolah!





I think ive put paid to that with the 5 seperate links from 5 seperate news organisations quoting the exact same statement. If you still think im 'believing the truth whether or not it is the truth' then I can supply a dozen more links in my next post if youd like..

And I can play that game as well! So you really are not proving anything to me by posting links...all that proves is that Hezbolah started a war that they had no business starting. They also do not recognise Israel and it's right to exsist and before peace will EVER happen they HAVE to do that ....period!




I attacked the magazine, not you. Although I really do think it's odd that someone who considers themselves qualified enough to speak about this situation wasnt aware of some of the basic facts surrounding it. By the way, weren't you the one who got involved in a mini-flame war on this same thread with someone who made a friendly joke that you might be the same person as another poster?


Well to me you are not the be all and end all of information. Just someone who has a very narrow point of view and beliueves a lie that Israel somehow lost a war that they did not lose. So please don't preach at me about not knowing facts. And I told the guy after he made a SMART COMMENT that I did not agree it was funny, So what is that to you? You really seem like you have some kind of axe to grindwith me, but I simply do not believe what you do, that somehow Israel lost this war with Hezbolah and that they are now known in the world for it.




If you feel qualified to characterise me as an 'america-basher' based on one thread, would it then be fair that I characterise you as an 'arab-basher'?

Well YOU are the one that is so all fired up about defending Hezbolah. When they ARE a terrorist orginization bent on the destruction of Israel. So if that is arab bashing then I think you are way off base! I attacked and will continue to attack Hezbolah for their stance that Israel does not have a right to exsist, that is wrong, period.

[meyou123]

dftpnkezln well said!!!
kudos to you

So am I right in assuming that you also believe that Israel does not have a right to defend itself or exsist as a nation? The reason I ask is beacuse you agree with what he said and most of it was defending an orginazation called Hezbolah. Which clearly does not recognise Israel and it's right to exsist as a nation.

[Pirate_RRRRRR_IIIIII]

Oh yeah we need more america bashers here on ZP! About like we need another hitler.


Don't confuse dissent with disloyalty. Certainly don't confuse dissenters or "america bashers" with Hitler, it makes you look foolish. Btw, I'm american.

[dftpnkezln]

What exactly is meant by Palestinian territory? In fact just so I know what exactly we,re talking about. What exact definition are we using for a Palestinian these days. What specific "internationally recognized" agreements are we talking about? I'm not sure the word "annex" really explains the full history of this. The word in it's naked self appears to imply Israel went into this palestinian territory of which you speak with the specific purpose of "annexing" it. Is that what happened? Give me a history lesson please. How did this annexing take place. Which specific areas are we talking about? Why am I supposed to feel sympathetic for these people who lay claim to captured territories like the Golan Heights, for example?

Palestinian territory refers to the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. Israel, after capturing East Jerusalem in 67, formally annexed it. Here is a map of the UN mandated boundaries for the Israeli and Palestinian states :

http://www.mideastweb.org/map_unpartition.gif

Regarding Israels annexation of Palestinian territory and the internationally recognised illegality, see UN Resolutions 252, 267, 271, 298, 476 and 478.
The internationally recognised agreements we are speaking of in regards to settlements, Israeli occupation and its illegality are UN Resolutions 242, 446, 452, 465 and 471.
Recently, the construction of Israels 'security wall' has fenced in about about 7% of Palestinian land in the West Bank - even though this isnt a formal annexation of territory, PM Olmert has said that the boundaries of the wall would likely constitute the future borders of Israel. ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/middleeast/09cnd-mideast.html?ex=1299560400&en=f7a513d8dac15769&ei=5088&partner )

Israel has no intention of removing any of the settlements it has set up within the 1967 borders of Palestinian territory around East Jerusalem and in the remainder of the West Bank, where it has expanded settlements (such as Maale Adummin, a settlement of about 250,000 people). Not only are the settlements on Palestinian land, they reserve for themselves much of the surrounding area and its resources. The three major Israeli settlements in the West Bank (Maale Adummin, Ariel and Gush Etzion) basically divide the Palestinian territory in two, meaning that if Israel intends to keep the land it has built these settlements on (and it does, according to PM Sharon and now PM Olmert), Palestinians will be required to seek Israeli permission to travel to and from parts of *their own country*.

Thats all of your questions answered I think. Regarding meyou123's comments, most of them seem to be a repeat of what he/she formerly said, but I think this post refutes the (ridiculous, baseless and absolutely false) claim that:



You are so full of MISINFORMATION it is really not funny. They were NOT ILLEGAL SETTLERS! Israel had taken over that property and it belonged to them! The only reason they evicted the settlers was because they wanted to have peace by giving that land back. They did not have to give anything back. But I guess you can't see that! No, to you all you can see is that they should not have been there, but they had EVERY RIGHT to be there! All the palestineans have done is send suicide bombers across it's borders to Israel...in case you can't read, that is the reason Israel invaded lebanon in the first place! And as far as the settlers are concerned, they were legal residents of a piece of land owned by Israel.

Ive listed all of the relevant UN resolutions over a period of 30 years which consistently condemn and declare illegal Israel's construction of settlements upon Palestinian land. The only way the settlements were legitimate is if you subscribe to the fundamentalist religious doctrine of 'Eretz Israel' which claims not only all of Palestine as part of Israel, but most of Jordan, chunks of Lebanon, Syria and Egypt (handed down by God no less). If, (like most sane people) you dont subscribe to this, then there really isnt any legal basis to claim the settlements were permittable.


If the palestineans DESIRED any peace at all, they would stop Hezbolah from doing stupid things like kidnapping israeli soliders or sending rockets or suicide bombers across the border to Isreal. You argument is bullshit! They are the ones provoking this and they are the ones who are going to have to put an end to it. And as far as re-invade...you bet! And rightly so if the palestineans want to elect a group like Hezbolah and KNOWS that they do not recognise Israels right to exsist, then it is their fault! Israel has the right to defend itself.

You are confusing some things here. Hezbollah = Lebanese. HAMAS = Palestinian. I think you're referring to HAMAS in some of this. Hezbollah havent been involved in sending suicide bombers to Israel since the mid-1980's.

[meyou123]

Don't confuse dissent with disloyalty. Certainly don't confuse dissenters or "america bashers" with Hitler, it makes you look foolish. Btw, I'm american.


You are the one that is confused. You act like a group that denies another group the right to exsist is OK, but yet the group that defends itself is not. That definately sounds foolish.

[meyou123]

Palestinian territory refers to the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. Israel, after capturing East Jerusalem in 67, formally annexed it. Here is a map of the UN mandated boundaries for the Israeli and Palestinian states :

http://www.mideastweb.org/map_unpartition.gif

Regarding Israels annexation of Palestinian territory and the internationally recognised illegality, see UN Resolutions 252, 267, 271, 298, 476 and 478.
The internationally recognised agreements we are speaking of in regards to settlements, Israeli occupation and its illegality are UN Resolutions 242, 446, 452, 465 and 471.
Recently, the construction of Israels 'security wall' has fenced in about about 7% of Palestinian land in the West Bank - even though this isnt a formal annexation of territory, PM Olmert has said that the boundaries of the wall would likely constitute the future borders of Israel. ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/middleeast/09cnd-mideast.html?ex=1299560400&en=f7a513d8dac15769&ei=5088&partner )

Israel has no intention of removing any of the settlements it has set up within the 1967 borders of Palestinian territory around East Jerusalem and in the remainder of the West Bank, where it has expanded settlements (such as Maale Adummin, a settlement of about 250,000 people). Not only are the settlements on Palestinian land, they reserve for themselves much of the surrounding area and its resources. The three major Israeli settlements in the West Bank (Maale Adummin, Ariel and Gush Etzion) basically divide the Palestinian territory in two, meaning that if Israel intends to keep the land it has built these settlements on (and it does, according to PM Sharon and now PM Olmert), Palestinians will be required to seek Israeli permission to travel to and from parts of *their own country*.

Your calim that Israel does not have the right to be on the land they now have simply because the UN said so is equally as ridiculous, baseless and absolutely FALSE! That sounds exactly like what the arab states have been crying over for years. These same arab nations also deny Isreal the right to have ANY land at all and tried to take away their land in the six day war Israel WON against four countries: Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and Syria. And now they calim that they should have the land BACK even though they tried and failed to drive Israel from their nation.

Scource:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War




Ive listed all of the relevant UN resolutions over a period of 30 years which consistently condemn and declare illegal Israel's construction of settlements upon Palestinian land. The only way the settlements were legitimate is if you subscribe to the fundamentalist religious doctrine of 'Eretz Israel' which claims not only all of Palestine as part of Israel, but most of Jordan, chunks of Lebanon, Syria and Egypt (handed down by God no less). If, (like most sane people) you dont subscribe to this, then there really isnt any legal basis to claim the settlements were permittable.


Again, the UN did absolutely NOTHING when Israel was attacked by those four countries, so WHAT RIGHT do they have saying that Israel now should give up those lands that they fought for? If they had put UN troops to fight along with Israel, I could understand, but theUN did not shed their soliders blood to win those lands. the Israeli army DID! Therefore they should not have a say in weather or not Israel gives up those lands again.






You are confusing some things here. Hezbollah = Lebanese. HAMAS = Palestinian. I think you're referring to HAMAS in some of this. Hezbollah havent been involved in sending suicide bombers to Israel since the mid-1980's.


I am not confusing anything...Hezbolah HAS sent over suicide bombers to Israel. Not recently, but they have in the past. There has been bad blood between the two for a long time. And Hamas has the blessing of Hezbolah when they commit those acts, so it is really no difference in who carries out the attacks. The result is the same.

Oh, and lets not forget the fact that Hamas used unguided missles to target Israel with. Basically they pointed them in the direction they wanted them to go and shot it over the border to Israel. They DID NOT CARE if they hit civilians or military targets, as they had no control over the missles once they were launched, Israel fired waepons that were precision. They too killed civilians, but they tried not to, Hezbolah did not care! That is the difference between the two.

[dftpnkezln]

Sigh.
Im not going to make another lengthy reply when its pretty clear that you're uninformed about the issue.
This is what you said:


If the palestineans DESIRED any peace at all, they would stop Hezbolah from doing stupid things like kidnapping israeli soliders

Hezbollah are not Palestinian. The Palestinians have no control over Hezbollah. Its things like this which show that you have very little grasp of the situation.


And rightly so if the palestineans want to elect a group like Hezbolah

Again, Hezbollah are Lebanese. Lebanon is a country to the north of Israel. You may have seen it on the news recently. Palestine is a country to the West and South of Israel. They have a group called HAMAS, which you are confusing with Hezbollah.

Also, if you think the UN had the right to create Israel (which it did, perhaps you know), then its difficult to understand how you can say they shouldnt have a say in telling Israel to give up illegally occupied lands in the same area. Its like going to court and the judge ruling in your favour on one issue but not another - if you then say 'well the court doesnt have any validity!' you undermine the decisions which went in your favour to begin with. Cant have it both ways mate.

[DwarfBaby]

Words, Words, Words. I don't care what point someone's trying to make. If a single post can't fit on a 20" screen with 1280x1024 resolution then it isn't worth reading.

[mfgbypooter]

word.

*

[Unsueable Davey Brown]

Palestinian territory refers to the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. Israel, after capturing East Jerusalem in 67, formally annexed it. Here is a map of the UN mandated boundaries for the Israeli and Palestinian states :

http://www.mideastweb.org/map_unpartition.gif

Regarding Israels annexation of Palestinian territory and the internationally recognised illegality, see UN Resolutions 252, 267, 271, 298, 476 and 478...

You are confusing some things here. Hezbollah = Lebanese. HAMAS = Palestinian. I think you're referring to HAMAS in some of this. Hezbollah havent been involved in sending suicide bombers to Israel since the mid-1980's.

OK, I think I've got it then. The portions of the resolutions of which you speak have nothing to do with Lebanon. They refer to an entirely different people. They have nothing to do with Nasrallah, or the specific Lebanese-Israeli conflict.

I'm not sure I understand why any of that is germaine to a conversation on who came out on top in the recent Lebanese-Israeli conflict? (I'm also not sure a UN resolution constitutes "International Recognition", but that's another discussion). I'm going to assume you're saying because Israel refused to give the Palestinians the land it acquired in the 6 day war, even though UN resolutions said they should, this makes Israel evil and wrong, because one should never disobey a UN resoultion. Therefore let us all rejoice in Hezbollah's victory of the righteous.

Wasn't there another old UN Resolution though? I believe it may have been 1559 calling for the disbanding and disarming of militias in Lebanon. Yet there was a civilian militia sending rockets into Israel, and kidnapping soldiers contrary to resolution 1559. Israel attacked, and we had a case of one resolution breaking group attacking another resolution breaking group. And the bad guy is...?

[nzwizard]

Sorry to say this but like America in Iraq, Israel got owned in Lebannon. What gets me is where the hell did hezbollah get all those damn rockets. They fired thousands of those suckers into Israel. The victory wasn't about who defeats who, its about the oppressed standing up to the oppressor, David vs Goliath. Hezbollah has shown it can pack a serious punch, considering they are just a rebel force going up against the technological might of the Israelis, Israel looked like an ass leaving the country with absoutely no result, except world condemnation and a rallying of support for Hezbollah.

Another point is the fact this seemed to be pre-planned. The entire invasion was well orchestrated and very quick, something i'm very surprised about.

Final note, America sending laser guided missiles to Israel during the conflict, could anyone do anything more retarded? Open support and backing is only going to aggravate the situation.

[Unsueable Davey Brown]

Is that what constitutes a victory in this modern world, I wonder? The group who curries the most favour with its selected demographic is declared the victor?

I do agree. It did seem pre-planned.The instigation of the invasion was pre-planned. Hizbollah had a fully prepared propaganda machine waiting. It seemed to know exactly what was coming, and how to exploit it for positive press in selected areas of the Muslim world.

So yes, that tubby little fur ball, Nasrallah is a hero in Iran and Syria for a couple of weeks. Woo Hoo!! He won!!

[mfgbypooter]

So yes, that tubby little fur ball, Nasrallah is a hero in Iran and Syria for a couple of weeks. Woo Hoo!! He won!!Yeah!

Throw the man a parade!

And let's give the man a medal, or a least a chest to pin it on.

*

[meyou123]

Sigh.
Im not going to make another lengthy reply when its pretty clear that you're uninformed about the issue.
"This is what you said:If the palestineans DESIRED any peace at all, they would stop Hezbolah from doing stupid things like kidnapping israeli soliders"
Hezbollah are not Palestinian. The Palestinians have no control over Hezbollah. Its things like this which show that you have very little grasp of the situation..


Yes Hezbolah is a terrorist group based in Lebanon. I am sorry for the confusion. But lets also understand. that the Lebanese Government has done absolutely nothing to stop Hezbolah. That was my point. I got the two confused and have corrected my mistake, but because of that you think that my whole argument should be dismissed.

Because I simply got one group confused with another, it does not change the fact that Hezbolah was WRONG in attacking Israel. And they were the ones that started this whole thing in the first place.



Also, if you think the UN had the right to create Israel (which it did, perhaps you know), then its difficult to understand how you can say they shouldnt have a say in telling Israel to give up illegally occupied lands in the same area. Its like going to court and the judge ruling in your favour on one issue but not another - if you then say 'well the court doesnt have any validity!' you undermine the decisions which went in your favour to begin with. Cant have it both ways mate.

Those "illegaly occupied lands" of which you speak, were lands WON by ISRAEL in the war with the four arab countries. And NOW the UN which pulled it's troops out at the first sign of trouble at the start of the seven day war .... want to tell Isreal to give those lands BACK?

Sorry, but I think Israel needs to tell them to go to hell! (a COURT also has to be able to ENFOCE their judgements or they are of no use- in case you didn't know)The UN as I said, was not willing to ENFORCE it's agreements with Israel and the arab countries that attacked it, so by what right now, do they have to say that Israel needs to give up those lands when the UN pulled it's troops out at the first sign of trouble? That is why I do not think the UN has any say in that whatsoever.

[MoonMan]

Oh yeah we need more america bashers here on ZP! About like we need another hitler.

It's people like you that destroy america. Is it so hard to look at an opposing view point without screaming blasphemy?

The first thing that right-wing fanatics scream when they see it is "ANTI AMERICAN!"

[meyou123]

It's people like you that destroy america. Is it so hard to look at an opposing view point without screaming blasphemy?

The first thing that right-wing fanatics scream when they see it is "ANTI AMERICAN!"

Actually it is people like you who scream that the terrorists are right in what they do that makes it hard to look at an opposing point of view and is destroying america. Look in the Mirror.

[Jared Moya]

Which side has killed more cilvilians, US or the Terrorist?

Terrorist hands down, At a rate of what 50 a day u do the math. Look it up.

[MoonMan]

Actually it is people like you who scream that the terrorists are right in what they do that makes it hard to look at an opposing point of view and is destroying america. Look in the Mirror.

I don't recall my post stating in any place that I was supporting terrorists. Don't get overly assumptious. I was just calling you out for automatically referring to people as "america bashers".

[Jared Moya]

Soulxtc and meyou are the same person! lol

How ironic since I came close to temp banning him for trolling one time. Got all crazy and said I was "anti-american" or something in that "Is America Retarded?" thread. Unless, could he be the Mr Hyde to my Dr Jekyll? Hmmm.


Incredible post.

Please stick around.

You are the perfect antidote to the right-wing US centric leaning that have often plagued discussion in this website.

Well done

Honestly, there's no right-wingers on this site that I know of. Kari14 maybe comes close in the religious aspect of her discussion but cant really fault her for standing up for what she believes.

What is right-wing? Death-penalty? Against. Drug-Legalization? For. Pro-Life? Pro-Choice. I mean what is a right-winger these days? It's not like the 80's with that crazy Christian-Coalition, which is now almost non-existant.

What it comes down to is this. Want to solve the problem over there? Tell all the nutjobs to leave Israel alone and stopped trying to annhilate them. Case closed. The day they all leave Israel alone is the day Im on their side. Cant fault a country for doing what we would all exactly DEMAND FROM OUR OWN. Remember V-2s Brits? These days they're called Katyushas.


I don't recall my post stating in any place that I was supporting terrorists. Don't get overly assumptious. I was just calling you out for automatically referring to people as "america bashers".

Oddly enough he's called me the same. That's why he's my new thread pit bull and helps take some of the pro-US or Israel rhetoric heat off my back.
.

[meyou123]

The victory wasn't about who defeats who, its about the oppressed standing up to the oppressor, David vs Goliath. Hezbollah has shown it can pack a serious punch, considering they are just a rebel force going up against the technological might of the Israelis, Israel looked like an ass leaving the country with absoutely no result, except world condemnation and a rallying of support for Hezbollah.
I find that you seem to be forgetting that is has been Israel that was attacked, it was Israel that had their soliders kidnapped and THEY are the opressors? That is almost funny.And it has been Israel all this time that has been opressing the arab countries? Bullshit. There are FAR more arabs then there are Israelis.



Final note, America sending laser guided missiles to Israel during the conflict, could anyone do anything more retarded? Open support and backing is only going to aggravate the situation.

America has always supplied weapons to Israel AND the arab nations have also supplied groups like Hezbolah and Hamas, how is this any different? Because Israel was attacked they should not recieve any weapons? Let me ask you somethuing...DO YOU THINK THAT THE HEZBOLAH WAS NOT SUPPLIED ALSO? Kind of a moot point really.

[meyou123]

I don't recall my post stating in any place that I was supporting terrorists. Don't get overly assumptious. I was just calling you out for automatically referring to people as "america bashers".

But you did say that people like me were destroying America, did you not? So then you are saying that as an american, because I do not support terrorism and am very opposed to it, that is somehow wrong? You said:
"It's people like you that destroy america. Is it so hard to look at an opposing view point without screaming blasphemy?

The first thing that right-wing fanatics scream when they see it is "ANTI AMERICAN!"

So I see in your post, You also accused me of being right wing when you don't know what the hell I am. So please get off your high horse and STOP making assumptions about me yourself!
Again, look in the mirror.

[meyou123]

Look, I am not here to be anyones pit bull or america defender. I simply believe that Israel had a right to defend itself from these attacks that it did not start itself. It is true that Israel has also been in error in that recently the observers of this war have found illegal rockets fired into civilian areas by Israel, so there is no "squeaky clean" side on either side.

And I condemn strongly Israel for using such weapons on civilian populations when they had other weapons in their arsenal.

That being said, I also think that the ONLY way for this to completely end is when the attacks on Israel end and it's soliders are returned to them completely unharmed. Until that happens, then there is going to be increased violence despite the UN doing what it can to send in troops and keep the two sides seperated.

As I said in an earlier post, there is no question that Israel is outnumbered by arab states, so they can hardly be called "opressors".

[dftpnkezln]

I'm not sure I understand why any of that is germaine to a conversation on who came out on top in the recent Lebanese-Israeli conflict? (I'm also not sure a UN resolution constitutes "International Recognition", but that's another discussion). I'm going to assume you're saying because Israel refused to give the Palestinians the land it acquired in the 6 day war, even though UN resolutions said they should, this makes Israel evil and wrong, because one should never disobey a UN resoultion. Therefore let us all rejoice in Hezbollah's victory of the righteous.

I realise i've written quite a lot on this thread, but you're the one who asked me to clarify some points about Palestine - previously I had only mentioned the issue in passing as an example of some instances where Israel has been less concerned about UN resolutions or the respect of territorial sovereignty. At no time did I say that not being in compliance with a UN resolution makes Israel 'evil' (although they are wrong in this instance). It simply demonstrates that Israel has been consistently denying the same rights to Palestinians (territorial sovereignty, the right not to have its nationals kidnapped etc) that it demands for itself.

Secondly, If UN resolutions, passed with (usually overwhelming) majorities in the general assembly dont constitute 'International Recognition' of the illegality of something, then perhaps you could tell me what would?
Please tell me we're not going to get into a debate about the credibility of the UN - imperfect as it is, its still the best guage of the International concensus in many respects.



Wasn't there another old UN Resolution though? I believe it may have been 1559 calling for the disbanding and disarming of militias in Lebanon. Yet there was a civilian militia sending rockets into Israel, and kidnapping soldiers contrary to resolution 1559. Israel attacked, and we had a case of one resolution breaking group attacking another resolution breaking group. And the bad guy is...?

Fairly sure I addressed this too, although I havent dwelt on it because there seemed to be some general agreement -

dftpnkezln said:


If you cant detect a common theme emerging here, its that neither Israel nor Hezbollah have the right to claim the moral high ground - Israel is certainly one of the last countries which can go around lecturing others on respecting territorial sovereignty, and Hezbollah cant walk around pretending to not have largely provoked this latest conflict.

Meyou123: I agree with most of your latest post. Theres no denying that Israel has a right to defend herself, I just question some of the ways in which it does so and the way it has sought to deny some of the same rights to others. Anyway, lets agree to disagree - good debate though.

[Unsueable Davey Brown]

I have a theory. There's a reason Hezbollah instigated the conflict at the precise time it did. It was a ploy. It's true purpose was to distract world attention from the upcoming deadline concerning Iran's efforts to acquire a nuclear bomb. As well, the hope was sympathy could be instilled for the Iranian side of the arguement. If this was the case I'd say the objective was successful, so we could call it a Hezbollah victory.

Hey, it's no crazier than the 9/11 didn't happen thing, or some of the other whacko conspiracy theories I see discussed here at ZP.

[Mels_Smileys45]

How ironic since I came close to temp banning him for trolling one time. Got all crazy and said I was "anti-american" or something in that "Is America Retarded?" thread. Unless, could he be the Mr Hyde to my Dr Jekyll? Hmmm.




.


OH my bad. I was so sure that was you. I thought maybe you had another account for when you smoke crack.

[Aval0n]

Lol at mels post.
Im not reading the rest of this gibberish. Too much too read.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Lol at mels post.
Im not reading the rest of this gibberish. Too much too read.


Amen brosiph!

[moneoa]

Look, I am not here to be anyones pit bull or america defender. I simply believe that Israel had a right to defend itself from these attacks that it did not start itself. It is true that Israel has also been in error in that recently the observers of this war have found illegal rockets fired into civilian areas by Israel, so there is no "squeaky clean" side on either side.

And I condemn strongly Israel for using such weapons on civilian populations when they had other weapons in their arsenal.

That being said, I also think that the ONLY way for this to completely end is when the attacks on Israel end and it's soliders are returned to them completely unharmed. Until that happens, then there is going to be increased violence despite the UN doing what it can to send in troops and keep the two sides seperated.

As I said in an earlier post, there is no question that Israel is outnumbered by arab states, so they can hardly be called "opressors".It's weird but your occasional argumantative stances are really familliar...I won't go so far as to call you a troll but I wonder if you have been banned here before and pulled up the old clone acct.

[Jared Moya]

It's weird but your occasional argumantative stances are really familliar...I won't go so far as to call you a troll but I wonder if you have been banned here before and pulled up the old clone acct.

What are you saying, crackerjacker 2.0?

[kokanezub]

As I said in an earlier post, there is no question that Israel is outnumbered by arab states, so they can hardly be called "opressors". isreal is as strong as america and stronger. it gets all american made weapons wen ever and how much it wants

[nzwizard]

Outnumbered lol. Israel has far more fire power than any of its neighbours, it also has a nuclear and biological arsenal that would make America hesitate. Hezbollah didn't need to take the soldier, but Israel didn't need to wipe Lebannon off the map, they know full well Lebannon can't do anything to stop Hezbollah yet they make the people suffer for the action of a few. But like I said in an earlier post, Israel came out of Lebannon looking like an ass. Hundereds of innocent civilians died because of one soldier, and inturn there was needless loss of life on the Israeli side, Hezbollah may have been dented but by no means were they crippled, and Israel knows it. Israel was responsible for the killing of Canadians and UN officers in the conflict, why they have not been held accountable is beyond me.

[Jared Moya]

Outnumbered lol. Israel has far more fire power than any of its neighbours, it also has a nuclear and biological arsenal that would make America hesitate. Hezbollah didn't need to take the soldier, but Israel didn't need to wipe Lebannon off the map, they know full well Lebannon can't do anything to stop Hezbollah yet they make the people suffer for the action of a few. But like I said in an earlier post, Israel came out of Lebannon looking like an ass. Hundereds of innocent civilians died because of one soldier, and inturn there was needless loss of life on the Israeli side, Hezbollah may have been dented but by no means were they crippled, and Israel knows it. Israel was responsible for the killing of Canadians and UN officers in the conflict, why they have not been held accountable is beyond me.

Because they were in the middle of a war zone, the killing of the Canadian and UN officers is on the hands of Hezbollah as they watched like idiots as Hezboallah used the UN posts as shields, planting rocket launchers and weapons nearby them yet did nothing. I though that was their job in the first place, guess not, but then what exactly was their job there, selling iced tea?


..........the only reason why Israel looked like an ass is beacause they werent allowed to finish the job of eliminating Hezbollah nor gaining the release of their captured soldiers. Funny though how Hezbollah started it yet Israel gets all the blame.

The larger issue to is that it would all end in a New York Minute if the peopel of that region would just quit trying to eliminate Israel and sign peace accords as have Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan. You cant have it both ways, wanting peace yet praying for conflict.

How can Israel now be expected to give the Palestininans more terrority when after it pulled out of the GAza Strip and handed over control to the PA, it was soon bombarded with katyusha rockets from the area. Yet they still ant the West BAnk which is even closer in range to its major cities.

So again, how can the PA have it both ways?

I guess what I dont get is that considering how its surrounded by people who will never ever let it live in peace and will always try to destroy it and its people from the face of the Earth, what would u have IT DO? It must protect itself right? If you disagree with its current actions then I'm curious as to what your alternatives are.

[nzwizard]

Because they were in the middle of a war zone, the killing of the Canadian and UN officers is on the hands of Hezbollah as they watched like idiots as Hezboallah used the UN posts as shields, planting rocket launchers and weapons nearby them yet did nothing. I though that was their job in the first place, guess not, but then what exactly was their job there, selling iced tea?


..........the only reason why Israel looked like an ass is beacause they werent allowed to finish the job of eliminating Hezbollah nor gaining the release of their captured soldiers. Funny though how Hezbollah started it yet Israel gets all the blame.

The larger issue to is that it would all end in a New York Minute if the peopel of that region would just quit trying to eliminate Israel and sign peace accords as have Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan. You cant have it both ways, wanting peace yet praying for conflict.

How can Israel now be expected to give the Palestininans more terrority when after it pulled out of the GAza Strip and handed over control to the PA, it was soon bombarded with katyusha rockets from the area. Yet they still ant the West BAnk which is even closer in range to its major cities.

So again, how can the PA have it both ways?

I guess what I dont get is that considering how its surrounded by people who will never ever let it live in peace and will always try to destroy it and its people from the face of the Earth, what would u have IT DO? It must protect itself right? If you disagree with its current actions then I'm curious as to what your alternatives are.


So the UN was supposed to ally the Israeli's and attack Hezbollah? Israel didn't need to directly strike a UN compound, could have used other means, or ordered the UN to evacuate before hand, unless it has shit intelligence which seems to be the case with most countries these days.

I'm not blaming Israel for the conflict, I stated Hezbollah took a soldier, I also said there was needless loss of life on both sides. Clearly Israel is the dominant power in the region, it needs to strengthen ties with it neighbours through diplomatic means, as opposed to walking into antique shop with a mac 10 everytime something happens. The only way these terrorist organisations are going to falter is when the people no longer agree with them. A government/terrorist organisation is nothing without its people. Win over the people and the rest will fall into place by itself. Not an easy task I must admit, but whatever they are trying now is definately not working. Believe me i'm no pacifist, but using extremely excessive firepower against a weak government and a civilian population isn't something i'd approve of, that goes for Hezbollah and Israel, in this case Israel has far more accurate and devastating firepower. If Israel really wanted to end this conflict, it would aggressively pursue the diplomatic route, something I have not seen for a very long time.

The PA is I believe the root of the problems Israel has. Most terrorist organisations align themselves with the plight of the Palastinians, and hate Israel because of it. If Israel could rectify the problem with the PA, even if it is Hamas, things in the Middle East could change. I don't believe Hamas is as unreasonable as the media has made it out to be, for all the terrorist acts they have committed they have also done alot of good for there people by the way of, money, food and other necessities, I guess thats why the people like them so much.

Who knows, there is obviously no quick fix, but solving the problem at the end of a gun just won't work.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, I don't hate Israel.

[Jared Moya]

So the UN was supposed to ally the Israeli's and attack Hezbollah? Israel didn't need to directly strike a UN compound, could have used other means, or ordered the UN to evacuate before hand, unless it has shit intelligence which seems to be the case with most countries these days.

I'm not blaming Israel for the conflict, I stated Hezbollah took a soldier, I also said there was needless loss of life on both sides. Clearly Israel is the dominant power in the region, it needs to strengthen ties with it neighbours through diplomatic means, as opposed to walking into antique shop with a mac 10 everytime something happens. The only way these terrorist organisations are going to falter is when the people no longer agree with them. A government/terrorist organisation is nothing without its people. Win over the people and the rest will fall into place by itself. Not an easy task I must admit, but whatever they are trying now is definately not working. Believe me i'm no pacifist, but using extremely excessive firepower against a weak government and a civilian population isn't something i'd approve of, that goes for Hezbollah and Israel, in this case Israel has far more accurate and devastating firepower. If Israel really wanted to end this conflict, it would aggressively pursue the diplomatic route, something I have not seen for a very long time.

The PA is I believe the root of the problems Israel has. Most terrorist organisations align themselves with the plight of the Palastinians, and hate Israel because of it. If Israel could rectify the problem with the PA, even if it is Hamas, things in the Middle East could change. I don't believe Hamas is as unreasonable as the media has made it out to be, for all the terrorist acts they have committed they have also done alot of good for there people by the way of, money, food and other necessities, I guess thats why the people like them so much.

Who knows, there is obviously no quick fix, but solving the problem at the end of a gun just won't work.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, I don't hate Israel.

Alright again I apologize for calling you a "state hater." Would like to see more solutions than criticisms. War's hell as they say, and it'd be nice if people would see both sides and not just Hezbollah's all the time.

It takes two to tango as they say. And I dont see any of the Hezbollah terrorists being prosecuted anytime soon for anything.

[don webb]

I have to disagree with this point.

“If Israel really wanted to end this conflict, it would aggressively pursue the diplomatic route”..

The only solution to this war with radical Islam is a military one. Muslim radicals only negotiate under two conditions; when they're in danger of being totally destroyed and need time to regroup; and when they can use the negotiations to the disadvantage of their adversaries.

[Jared Moya]

Amnesty International: Hezbollah guilty of war crimes

Amnesty International has accused Hezbollah of "serious violations of international humanitarian law, amounting to war crimes" during the recent Lebanese war.

In a report published in London Thursday, the human rights group condemned the "deliberate targeting" of Israeli civilians by Hezbollah.

The report states that 43 civilians, including seven children, were killed in these Hezbollah attacks.

In meetings with Amnesty International, Hezbollah had argued that its rocket attacks on northern Israel were a reprisal for Israeli attacks on civilians in Lebanon and were aimed at stopping such attacks.

In its report Amnesty rejects the Hezbollah claim by pointing out that international law forbids the targeting of civilians and reprisals.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/762447.html