Sweet 16, Iran-style

[aqlo]

Tell me this isn't the kind of thing that is worth fighting about, and if necessary dying for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

Disturbed by the death of her mother when she was only four or five years old, and her distraught father's subsequent drug addiction, Atefah had a difficult childhood.

She was also left to care for her elderly grandparents, but they are said to have shown her no affection.

In a town like Neka, heavily under the control of religious authorities, Atefah - often seen wandering around on her own - was conspicuous.

It was just a matter of time before she came to the attention of the "moral police", a branch of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, whose job it is to enforce the Islamic code of behaviour on Iran's streets.

This sort of story isn't even rare you know. It's ordinary daily life over there.


Previously arrested for attending a party and being alone in a car with a boy, Atefah received her first sentence for "crimes against chastity" when she was just 13.

Although the exact nature of the crime is unknown, she spent a short time in prison and received 100 lashes.

Atefah was soon caught in a downward spiral of arrest and abuse

When she returned to her home town, she told those close to her that lashes were not the only things she had to endure in prison. She described abuse by the moral police guards.

Except you can't speak freely, and you can't trust anyone, and you won't ever be safe.


The moral police said the locals had submitted a petition, describing her as a "source of immorality" and a "terrible influence on local schoolgirls".

But there were no signatures on the petition - only those of the arresting guards.

Three days after her arrest, Atefah was in a court and tried under Sharia law.

The judge was the powerful Haji Rezai, head of the judiciary in Neka.

No court transcript is available from Atefah's trial, but it is known that for the first time, Atefah confessed to the secret of her sexual abuse by Ali Darabi.

However, the age of sexual consent for girls under Sharia law - within the confines of marriage - is nine, and furthermore, rape is very hard to prove in an Iranian court.

"Men's word is accepted much more clearly and much more easily than women," according to Iranian lawyer and exile Mohammad Hoshi.

"They can say: 'You know she encouraged me' or 'She didn't wear proper dress'."

When Atefah realised her case was hopeless, she shouted back at the judge and threw off her veil in protest.

It was a fatal outburst.

She was sentenced to execution by hanging, while Darabi got just 95 lashes.

Shortly before the execution, but unbeknown to her family, documents that went to the Supreme Court of Appeal described Atefah as 22.

"Neither the judge nor even Atefah's court appointed lawyer did anything to find out her true age," says her father.

And a witness claims: "The judge just looked at her body, because of the developed physique... and declared her as 22."

Judge Haji Rezai took Atefah's documents to the Supreme Court himself.

And at six o'clock on the morning of her execution he put the noose around her neck, before she was hoisted on a crane to her death.

And no, I don't think everyone in Iran is bad, far from it. Her father has a statement that is heartbreaking, even if it is apolitical enough to keep from getting himself killed too.


For Atefah's father the pain of her death remains raw. "She was my love, my heart... I did everything for her, everything I could," he says.

He did not get the chance to say goodbye.

There are plenty of Iranian people who love freedom, behind closed doors.


Every so often the moral police clamp down on parks and teahouses where girls and boys spend time together. All these guys can tell stories of being stopped by the police. But they live a kind of double life, with a highly attuned sense of what they can get away with.

From what I've seen and heard, young middle-class Iranians break the law daily, if not hourly. Our wonderful young fixer watches Seinfeld and Friends on illegal satellite and has a very beautiful girlfriend with whom he may well commit crimes against chastity on a regular basis.

That's probably why Atefah's story so horrified young Iranians. In the re-telling, they've romanticised her story somewhat.
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,,1830833,00.html

But they are still cowards. Some things are worth dying for, this is one of them. Allowing these things to happen, condoning them, supporting a religion which mandates them, is being an accessory to their crimes.

How do we tell the innocent Iranians from the "evil people"? They are the ones who arm themselves and kill every single government official and mullah and moral-policemen they can get at, one after another. Nothing less than that will be enough.

[Potato]

That is truly heartbreaking. And the fact that this isn't just one girl's story.... wow.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread before, but I'm bumpin' it now.


It will be a while, if ever, before this world sees much change for "the better."

[Illuminist]

Tell me this isn't the kind of thing that is worth fighting about, and if necessary dying for.

There are pleantyful of countries in the world who have the same problems or even worse.

Wanna bomb them, do you?

PS. I take it your reffering to the Iranian controvercy of going to war with Iran?

[Digital Bliss]

Every day this world is starting to look more and more like George Orwells 1984 and it scares me....

[Illuminist]

Every day this world is starting to look more and more like George Orwells 1984 and it scares me....

It'll probably get worse... Infact it will, more than likley.

[aqlo]

I take it your reffering to the Iranian controvercy of going to war with Iran

Not really, no, just pointing out how the words "innocent" and "victim" are linked together in a political context. It's the Iranian people who need to overthrow their government over the right-and-wrong question, it's not something that is really our business per se. Other than to be aware of it and not be misled.

When we do end up fighting Iran, say any day now, it will be for the usual political-territorial reasons, i e they will go interfering in other people's territory and our politics will be such as to crush them like bugs when they do. When this happens, it will be war. And in war there aren't really any "innocent victims". There are heroes, there are cowards, there are traitors, there are winners and losers, but there are no innocents.

Let me give you some examples. Atefah, the 16yo in the story, she might have been a fast girl, she might have been a slut, she might have been a misunderstood adolescent or an admirable rebel or a sexy little vixen whom that judge enjoyed owning and using and then hoisting up gagging and kicking to dance that last dance for his own twisted pleasure. But now she's a hero.

Those guys in the world trade center, they might have been regular guys doing accounting, they might have been evil fuckers exploiting the third world, they might have been coldhearted idiots who didn't know people were the price of profit. But now they are heroes.

That's war, that's how it works. If you allow things to happen, you are responsible for those things. It's no good complaining that there was nothing you could do. Some things really are worth dying for. If these things are happening in your neighborhood, don't be surprised when you die for them.

When those cowards from Egypt and Saudi Arabia took that dive into those skyscrapers, no one I respect went running around complaining and whining about how unfair it was. We hit back, and we keep hitting back, and if there's anyone who doesn't like it, we have a message for them: BRING IT ON !!!


There are pleantyful of countries in the world who have the same problems or even worse.

Wanna bomb them, do you?

Yep. They just aren't first on my list.

[Illuminist]

Not really, no,

You do realise how spasticated that sounds, don't you?


Yep. They just aren't first on my list.

Want to kindly name the countries?

PS. Your I.Q. criticism seems to coinside with both of your comments mentioned...

[bobhss]

Are people basically good or basically bad? I say basically bad and this story proves it. No, not all people will kill others for doing what they consider wrong, but "all have sinned and fall short" seems like a pretty true statement to me.

[napho]

Sounds like a perfect role model for Christian America.

[sebbell]

Tell me this isn't the kind of thing that is worth fighting about, and if necessary dying for.
This sort of story isn't even rare you know. It's ordinary daily life over there.
Except you can't speak freely, and you can't trust anyone, and you won't ever be safe.


That's terrible isn't it, we better just kill them all then, just to be to safe, we should probably kick them all out of the country as well, I don't like kebabs any way.

[Illuminist]

I'd like to see Aqlo's country being bombed...

Yes Aqlo... you'd probably go berserk if anyone who could dream of bombing your
country for bullshit social reasons but ooze absolute hypocracy in babbling about some other country's social issues and using them as reasons to bomb them.

I've never read so much dribble about your excuses of your reporting of social matters in Iran and somehow being able to ''save the day'' and ''spread democracy''

It seems desperate.

[lifehacker]

That's terrible isn't it, we better just kill them all then, just to be to safe, we should probably kick them all out of the country as well, I don't like kebabs any way.
That comment is just rascist.

[Illuminist]

That comment is just rascist.

I'd veiw it as sarcasm. Rather agressive sarcasm, some might see. But not racism.

But I'm sure its the Arab's and Turk's who eat kebabs and not the pursians (Iranians).

I bet that Aqlo thinks that Iranians are Arabs.

[aqlo]

a perfect role model for Christian America
Yes, the problem with the Religous Right in America is something we should get started dealing with, no argument there. I personally don't think it has come to the point where we need to take up arms about it, in my neigborhood at least, I'm still interested in a solution involving revoking tax-free numbers for pseudo-churches who can't stay out of politics.

But I may be wrong. And if some civilized country like say China for example suddenly bombs the hell out of us one day in the course of getting back at say Pat Robertson for example, I won't be surprised or even discouraged, assuming I survive I will just have to adjust my thinking. "Live free or die."

you'd probably go berserk if anyone who could dream of bombing your
country
No, I've covered this already, anyone who doesn't like the freedoms America has, or the way we abuse them for that matter, we aren't hiding. I will be likely to be one of the casualties if you can stage a successful attack on US military command, and I'm not afraid of that. Like I already said,

no one I respect went running around complaining and whining about how unfair it was. We hit back, and we keep hitting back, and if there's anyone who doesn't like it, we have a message for them: BRING IT ON !!!

I bet that Aqlo thinks that Iranians are Arabs
You lose that bet too. I know what Persians (Parsi) are, I know what Aryans (Iran) are, I know where the Caucasus is, I even know what Yezidi are. You don't seem to understand your position at all, you are a poser and no one buys your bullshit here. Not here on this board, not at Berkeley or in Chicago, not in Bavaria and certainly not in Whitehall. So next time take the effort to research your opponents before you start making ridiculous claims. Or be a poser with delusions of dupehood for all eternity, no skin off my nose.

What's keeping you from being able to read and understand the responses to your nonsense, btw? Is it the same thing that is responsible for your atrocious spelling and grammar? I indicated quite clearly that social problems in a country are not a reason for attacking them, simply an exercise in the politics of innocence. Here that is again for reference

When we do end up fighting Iran, say any day now, it will be for the usual political-territorial reasons, i e they will go interfering in other people's territory and our politics will be such as to crush them like bugs when they do.
You are the one who has been trying to make this into a thread about the coming war from your first post, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder of some kind. What's causing your obsession with turning a sad story into some sort of personal showdown with me? You don't have any comments on the actual content of my post at all, only your assumed interpretation of a strawman argument I never made.

Again, is it the same thing that causes your hookt-on-fonix spelling, cockeyed grammar, low reading comprehension, and inability to pass the initial testing required for membership in any sort of Discordian operation which I've already pointed out? Is it just too much hemp and a sad excuse for an education? I don't really care, I won't be arguing post for post with you anymore, in this thread at least, because I'm more interested in the responses of genuine caring people who might have insights into the picture of Iranian culture Atefah's story seems to paint. I'm hoping someone can make me smarter, that clearly won't be you.

Are people basically good or basically bad? I say basically bad and this story proves it.
Tell me more, bob. I hadn't though of it that way, I would rather think ordinary people are basically good and people who become addicted to power are the source of most of the bad. But that doesn't mean that the basically good people who don't bother to fight against the bad aren't to blame as well.

But I'd like to understand your view, could you talk it out for me please? Whenever you get the chance.

[Jared Moya]

That comment is just rascist.

Yeh, I dont like that comment either................will make sure its addressed.

[sebbell]

That comment is just rascist.

Sorry Lifehacker and anyone else I offended, it was sarcasm.
I certainly wasn't advocating murder.

Quote:
They are the ones who arm themselves and kill every single government official and mullah and moral-policemen they can get at, one after another. Nothing less than that will be enough.

[Illuminist]

You can't even accept my nickname, Aqlo. So am I going to repay the favour and read your dribble?

I only need to write a few lines... you on the otherhand, need to attack me in the most
desperate of manners..

[aqlo]

we better just kill them all then, just to be to safe, we should probably kick them all out of the country as well
No thanks, we might have to kill some of them if they can't take charge of their own country well enough to avoid pushing international politics beyond diplomacy to violence, but that's just a side issue. And those would be heroes. I would rather they become heroes on their own steam though, I just don't think it will happen soon enough with the way things are.

All the Moslems I know in America are reasonable people who wanted economic freedom in a place where they could manage their own morality without answering to an organized gang of ignorant power freaks masquerading as religious leaders. That doesn't mean they don't have strong religious beliefs some of them, they just don't expect me to have them. I made the mistake of showing the Muhammed cartoons to one of them, he's an interpreter with a nice family and I didn't think he took things real seriously. Turns out he did, but you know what he did about it?

He didn't throw rocks at me, he didn't try to get me hung or kicked out or disciplined, he doesn't hate freedom the way the power lovers do. He just showed me a really gross "camel toe" picture one day, really fat hairy thing going on. Right after lunch too!

Then he said Well now you know how I felt when you showed me your funny cartoon. And that was it. That's a better way I think, a grownup way. And that's why freedom is worth dying for.


wasn't advocating murder
Is it murder to take your country back by force when reason fails? Not if you win. And if you lose you die, and that's the end of it. Just to be clear yet again, I'm not advocating foreign attacks on Iran as a solution to internal social problems. I'm advocating revolution for the people in Iran who love freedom. If I lived there I would have to be a "murderer" I guess. I would think of it more as doing my part for my country. If things ever get that bad here, I will either be a hero or a traitor, depending on whether we win or not. Because I won't be a coward, it isn't worth living to be a slave.

You might see it differently, make me understand your view.

I offended, it was sarcasm
You still don't get it somehow. Trying to turn things around on me and see how I like it, sure that's sarcasm.

But calling people "kebabs" in the process is bad form, it makes you look like an ass and undercuts your argument. Maybe you just meant the food, doesn't matter. One must not even give the appearance of racism in the course of arguing about genocide, or the whole argument starts to collapse.

[SoreVexed]

You can't even accept my nickname, Aqlo. So am I going to repay the favour and read your dribble?

I only need to write a few lines... you on the otherhand, need to attack me in the most
desperate of manners..

You know dude, I have found that insulting people with higher reputation power than you can lead to what krell describes as: "Your anus catching fire."

be careful.

[Jared Moya]

You know dude, I have found that insulting people with higher reputation power than you can lead to what krell describes as: "Your anus catching fire."

be careful.

I daresay I miss that guy. :(

[Illuminist]

You know dude, I have found that insulting people with higher reputation power than you can lead to what krell describes as: "Your anus catching fire."

be careful.

I haven't insulted him. Read his insulting statements in his previous posts and then realise
how I haven't reacted in a stereotypical way and returned the rather insulting things he's said about me.

[mfgbypooter]

I daresay I miss that guy. :(<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

me too.

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[Lord_of_the_Dense]

I miss him too.

I find it amazing though how some people completely underestimate what they are up against.

[bobhss]

Sounds like a perfect role model for Christian America.

For people who claim to be Christians but do things that are contrary to Christs' teachings, yes. The same goes for all religions. People claim to be Islamic, but they do stuff like this. I'm sure someone of another faith knows people who claim to be of their faith, but do things that are completely out of step with their teachings/beliefs.


Tell me more, bob. I hadn't though of it that way, I would rather think ordinary people are basically good and people who become addicted to power are the source of most of the bad. But that doesn't mean that the basically good people who don't bother to fight against the bad aren't to blame as well.

But I'd like to understand your view, could you talk it out for me please? Whenever you get the chance.

People are basically bad. At the deep down place in each person if they were given the opportunity to say steal money and never get caught, they'd do it. Most people would, sure, some might resist the urge to take the money. But let's assign a dollar amount to it like $10,000,000. More people would be stealing it knowing they wouldn't get caught. Or let's change it to this story. If given the opportunity to get away with the rape of a young woman, even people who are considered the moral police will do it because they know they will never be caught or punished. It's sad, but it happens.

[sebbell]

Firstly, I just want to clarify that I would never call someone a kebab, I did mean the food, personally I think they're great.

Secondly Aqlo, I am not going to argue over each and every point, but I will say this, horrible things have been done in the name of religion over thousands of years, all over the world, including the US. "Freedom" is now being used in the same way, whipping up anti muslim sentiment by demonising a whole culture and religion is just "bad form". For some balance I suggest you check out this site: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

Goodbye.

[bobhss]

demonising a whole culture and religion is just "bad form".

Agreed. I'm 100% sure that not every one in the Middle East is out to blow up America, the same way that not every Canadian is a hockey player. But people have a way of lumping everyone else who doesn't agree with them together.

[SoreVexed]

"I haven't insulted him. Read his insulting statements in his previous posts and then realise
how I haven't reacted in a stereotypical way and returned the rather insulting things he's said about me."
(I'm not sure, I failed grammar class, but I think you just contradicted yourself in ONE sentance.)


Whatever happened to krell anywayz? i wish it were krell illuminist was insulting. lol

[aqlo]

whipping up anti muslim sentiment by demonising a whole culture and religion
When did I do that? I'm guessing that your main objection to this thread is that you have the idea that the BBC feature I want to talk through is just propaganda.

Let's be clear on this, it definitely is propaganda. They had to go to quite a bit of work to find an Iranian political martyr who was attractive enough to act as a "poster girl" for this sort of feature, and I will come back to that in a minute. But it is not just propaganda, it is also a true story. You guys seem to be a lot less angry about the way this child was fucking executed for being loose and talking back than you are about the fact that someone dares to tell the story. What are you afraid of? The truth never hurt anybody who didn't have it coming to them.

Here's some more from the second article, the story-of-the-story
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,,1830833,00.html

Though Atefah came from what was originally a good family, and had cousins who went to university to read law and botany, her own childhood was tragic. Her mother died in a traffic accident and her father became a heroin addict. She lived with her grandparents and, though her grandmother was very fond of her, her grandfather seems to have been a bully.

By the time she was in her early teens, Atefah seems to have been wild, the kind of girl who was asking for trouble, who didn't care about rules, who answered back. She was also too pretty for her own good, apparently.

I imagine her as a kind of Iranian Emily Lloyd in Wish You Were Here, who cycles round the town showing off her legs, looking for trouble. Girls aren't allowed to use bicycles in Iran but I'm sure Atefah found other ways of drawing attention to herself. A caller from her home town of Neka to Radio Fadr said men used to wolf-whistle at her.
And here's a picture of her
http://www.kundalini-support.com/AteqehSahaleh2.jpg

We learn a lot more about Atefah's dysfunctional family. After her mother's death, Atefah's little brother drowned in the river.

The details of Atefah's abuse by Ali Daroubi, which Atefah told her aunt about in prison, are horrendous. Apparently she could only walk on all fours afterwards because of the pain. Her family at the time seem to have hated and punished her rebellious behaviour but not found out its root cause.

A number of people we've talked to are convinced Atefah was killed to shut her up.

Their general reading of the situation is that Atefah was taken advantage of by the moral police in Neka, who knew of Ali Daroubi's abuse and abused her too. Then, for some reason, they decided to get her out of the way. Atefah never seemed to follow rules and she didn't seem to know the rules about keeping quiet. So they used Ali Daroubi as a scapegoat to prosecute Atefah and get her out of the way.

We have heard a similar interpretation of events from many people but it is so hard to substantiate.

However, two months after Atefah's death, there was a big wave of arrests in Neka and two moral policemen were arrested, accused of organising a child sex ring.
And here's a picture of the crane they used to lift her up like that serpent in the wilderness
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41936000/jpg/_41936178_crane_203.jpg

According to sharia law, execution for sex outside marriage should be by stoning, but shortly after the revolution, the Iranian authorities took to hanging people from cranes no matter what the crime. It's quick, cheap, and provides a spectacle for the crowd.

We've seen footage from other recent executions in Iran. The technique is so perfunctory. A lorry with a crane is parked up. A noose is put around the victim's neck, and the victim is blindfolded. Some people have told us that a mullah says words from the Qur'an, but in the footage we've seen the killers have been perfunctory. The crane arm is then raised to its full height, and with it the noose. The victim dies of strangulation. The body swings in the air. B told us that sometimes they move the crane arm slowly from far left extension to right to display the body to everyone in the crowd.

Atefah's friend told us that he saw a couple of men in the crowd filming Atefah's execution on mobile phones. Someone rushed to her aunt and said - "We've filmed it, we'll put it on the internet." So far this footage hasn't surfaced. I don't know if I could bear to watch it. A sixteen-year-old girl's execution in accordance to laws written in the early middle ages, filmed on a mobile phone.

Haji Rezai put the noose around Atefah's neck himself, and left her body hanging for 45 minutes. Then he drove away in his black Peugeot 406.
I find it interesting that so many countries now have a strange mix of 20th century and late iron age technology/culture. Is that our fault? Should we have refrained from selling them the things they wanted to buy, like bombs and guns and you know, cranes, until they had proven they had passed safely through the long long civilizing process we had to to create these wonders for ourselves? I don't know, I believe in a free market, really. But does that include people who don't know what "free" even is?

Here's her father again

He finally turns up, overexcited and exhausted after an eight-hour journey. He's sunburned, with bright eyes and is wearing an army jacket. Knowing Atefah's photos as well as I now do, the family resemblance is very strong.

Safer Ali takes the strangeness of a foreign, and female, director in his stride. It's a very good interview, very impassioned.

He was not there for his daughter when she needed him most. She was abused by Ali Daroubi, by a man he knew, and he did not spot this or protect her from it. Though he tried as hard as he could, with no money, to get a lawyer for his daughter, surely there was more he could have done? The truth is that his heroin addiction made him a pretty useless human being for years. But there's no doubt at all that he's very sorry now. He seems clean and determined to stay that way.

The strangest thing is hearing him repeat Atefah's words. For example: "Atefah used to say the moon won't always stay behind the clouds - and she was right." You get the sense she was a very articulate teenager.

Anyway back to the propaganda part. If there is someone who would like to tell me about how the Iranian people want law and order and safe streets and so on and that's why things like this have to happen, I'm listening. In one of the last couple of war threads someone pointed out that when the people rise up and throw the bastards out, they often just end up letting some different bastards in, and used Castro's Cuba as an example.

I've been to Cuba, it's a very civilized country. It's a nice safe place to raise your children, with very little crime and quite a lot of happy families. And that's what the ordinary people who lived there wanted, before Castro it was the whorehouse of the Caribbean, with a whole variety of exploitation and white slavery and general mayhem for anyone who got in the way. Those old-money expatriates in Miami who want Castro out, that's what they lost when the revolution came, their private playground to step all over the common people and satisfy their sick whims with impunity.

And contrary to popular belief, the Cuban people have plenty of intellectual freedom. The librarians there are free to stock whatever books they like, the only restriction is that anything not approved by the government has to be donated privately, it won't be purchased with the money of the people. Free speech in private is not only allowed but encouraged, as a counterbalance to the rather harsh restrictions on public assembly.

I still don't like it, but I understand why the people there want it to be that way and are willing to sacrifice some freedoms for the security and well-being of their families.

I don't see that in Iran, I seem to see the exact opposite; maybe someone can show me though. So far all I've heard from the opposition is bullshit about how me telling the truth is an offense against religious freedom for people who think religious freedom ought to include child abuse, murder of cartoonists and religious converts, and genocide against every culture who dares to call their pitiful deluded hypocritical bullshit what it is.

[DwarfBaby]

Secondly Aqlo, I am not going to argue over each and every point, but I will say this, horrible things have been done in the name of religion over thousands of years, all over the world, including the US. "Freedom" is now being used in the same way, whipping up anti muslim sentiment by demonising a whole culture and religion is just "bad form".

You are absolutely right,

I've never been a big fan of Christianity (despite being the son of a Christian preacher). The problem is I've never been a fan of any religion. Islam is very much similar to Christianity 800 years ago, and Judaism 3,000 years ago. Killing in the name of any God is retarded. "Nobody" gets 72 virgins in heaven, #1 Virgins suck and #2 I can't imagine any God saying such a stupid thing.

While I almost never agree with Christian thinking at least they don’t hang raped girls. At least they don’t force unwilling marriages on helpless girls, they don’t keep women trapted like pets, and they don’t blow themselves up to kill helpless people.

Yes “Freedom” is America’s new God/cause/whatever. I’d rather praise freedom then clerics chanting justice or preachers chanting divine wisdom and power.

[mfgbypooter]

#1 Virgins suckNot in my day they didn't. :(

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[DwarfBaby]

Not in my day they didn't. :(

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:icon_tong
Oh sorry. Jesus dude you are old, thanks for the insight but you've never had a Mennonite girlfriend. My second (or third) "Real" girl friend was a Mennonite. They can't have sex until they're married but she nearly put Hoover out business

[mfgbypooter]

some religion is good for something then.

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[Jared Moya]

:icon_tong
Oh sorry. Jesus dude you are old, thanks for the insight but you've never had a Mennonite girlfriend. My second (or third) "Real" girl friend was a Mennonite. They can't have sex until they're married but she nearly put Hoover out business

Wow, may have to find me a nice Mennonite girl then... :)

[cheapprick]

Not in my day they didn't. :(

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You just needed to beg more.

On a different note, I would never compare a sweet oral treat with satisfaction from Hoover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_edgar_hoover).

[mfgbypooter]

Back in the day it was usually the Catholic girls that were the easiest.

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