More detailed explaination from Gwren via email

[tsafa1]

This was posted by email in the mute forum by Gwren in response to my question.


Every time you are connected to other nodes you can do several things:
1) Finding ips of other nodes of the ants net
2) Downloading
3) Uploading
4) Routing
5) ...
Surely routing is the most important part because lets you remain anonymous, but also it is the most "expensive" part of the job. So the main idea is... as you can collect ips these ips could be used to create new connections if the olds are stale and also these new connections sometime (randomly) will take you nearer to the chunk source (surely some other time they will lead away from the sources)... so what? The implemented algorithm is stupid but effective: if you have, say, 5 connections your node continuously keeps track of which connections are actually active, active means you are uploading or downloading over those connections, not only routing. Basically this check lets you keep only a small number of unactive connections, that is connections aimed to routing, while the others MUST be active, otherwise, if a limit is passed, one (randomly) of the connections not active will be disabled and a new one will be created with another node of the net, this action is done at stated intervals of 15 minutes, untill the number of active connections remains under the limit.
This algorithm has two "side effects", on one side it takes you nearer to your sources, minimizing the hops number among your and the chunks "spring", on the other side it also takes the sources nearer to the requestors, because if you are not downloading anything and you are sharing some files, a determined number of connections will remain stable, but the remaining connections will constantly change untill they become active, that is untill some uploads become perfromed over those connections.

So what do we ackieve? A simple double effect... Muhammad goes to the mountain and the mountain gets nearer to him :P

[Hornet]

This new idea for Ants is great as it overcomes one its main problems, that is having to proxy files.

When a file is proxied over many hops a large amount of bandwidth is used for network traffic rather than own traffic so downloads are slow.

If you were to download directly then it would be fast but not anonymous as you would know the IP of the user you're downloading from.

By selectively connecting to users who upload/download your files you are increasing the probability of fewer hops or direct connection so less proxy traffic and faster downloads.

However, you still cannot tell if the IP you are connected to is proxing an upload/download or is the file's source/destination.

Once this new idea is developed, refined and tested the download speed and size of the Ants network should increase greatly.

Basically, the nework is learning what type of files you like and gradually moving your connections closer to users with those files. So that you end up in a cluster(s) with other file sharers that share your interests. This is very much like how Winny operates.

Lastly, re CJ's ban
Zeropaid is a pro file sharing site. Nothing stays the same there are always new applications and trends. Due to the actions of the MPAA and RIAA the current focus is on privacy, deniability and distributed storage.

Ants has all of those things.
It can and does store ed2k links in a way that can't be closed down by the authorities.
It does allow you to host websites anonymously and
It does prevent the RIAA/MPAA from suing file sharers by giving users deniability.

Ants is a file sharing program with a forum on ZP so by flaming and consistenly negative posting you are doing the RIAA/MPAA's job for them. ZP is meant to be a haven for file sharers - where we can regroup and look to fight and win future battle despite recent set backs.

I do hope CJ comes back after her 4 day ban as I believe in free speech, pro or anti new developments.

I also hope ZP users try the new incarnation of Ants at some time in the future if only out of curiosity to see if CJ was right or wrong.

Hornet

[risingfoam]

This new idea for Ants is great as it overcomes one its main problems, that is having to proxy files.

When a file is proxied over many hops a large amount of bandwidth is used for network traffic rather than own traffic so downloads are slow.

If you were to download directly then it would be fast but not anonymous as you would know the IP of the user you're downloading from.

By selectively connecting to users who upload/download your files you are increasing the probability of fewer hops or direct connection so less proxy traffic and faster downloads.

However, you still cannot tell if the IP you are connected to is proxing an upload/download or is the file's source/destination.

Once this new idea is developed, refined and tested the download speed and size of the Ants network should increase greatly.

Basically, the nework is learning what type of files you like and gradually moving your connections closer to users with those files. So that you end up in a cluster(s) with other file sharers that share your interests. This is very much like how Winny operates.

Lastly, re CJ's ban
Zeropaid is a pro file sharing site. Nothing stays the same there are always new applications and trends. Due to the actions of the MPAA and RIAA the current focus is on privacy, deniability and distributed storage.

Ants has all of those things.
It can and does store ed2k links in a way that can't be closed down by the authorities.
It does allow you to host websites anonymously and
It does prevent the RIAA/MPAA from suing file sharers by giving users deniability.

Ants is a file sharing program with a forum on ZP so by flaming and consistenly negative posting you are doing the RIAA/MPAA's job for them. ZP is meant to be a haven for file sharers - where we can regroup and look to fight and win future battle despite recent set backs.

I do hope CJ comes back after her 4 day ban as I believe in free speech, pro or anti new developments.

I also hope ZP users try the new incarnation of Ants at some time in the future if only out of curiosity to see if CJ was right or wrong.

Hornet

I dont have nothing against you hornet or ants, in fact this virtual hashing of proxie nodes is not a new idea, i just question certain aspects of the client.

i dont think it was right for someone to continue to spam and call others names just because they disagreed.

i believe in free speech too.
good luck, but like i said i will stick to my opinion and at the same time i am just as curious as everyone else here on the new p2p programs, with respect to how p2p programs will filter out and block riaa, mpaa etc.

the bottom line is i rather have facts and thats what i am about. matter of fact i believe that i able to learn new stuff to., that is why i like to research stuff to my fulliest, i enjoy doing this.

no harm done, like i said i never called u any names in fact like someone else has.
peace
and feel free to talk about ants etc on here, as i wont stand in you way.
in fact i am the one who suggested they make and ants and mute forum.

peace

[CactusChris]

Firstly - there have been several claims with no substantive backup that the ip address and the vip can be identified (cj's was "btw there is a way to obtain the ip address of the actual host sending the data, in fact there are several ways to do it and several tools to get this information.")
Now this is important !! we need to find out why they think this and what they think the answer is. We mostly believe that ANts is secure - so we are the worst arbiters of its security - there are none so blind etc...
When the comment is raised that ANts can be broken we need to do what Gwren did with his competition - and see what we can get out of the claimant - and then evaluate it impartially - for our own good.

Secondly
Now I think that the idea of disconnecting from peers that are just proxying data that is not for me - and randomly connecting to another peer instead has some merit. I think that what I select for download often only comes from a few users - most do not have the same taste in music so their available uls are of no interst to me (but are to others no doubt).

[notbob]

Firstly - there have been several claims with no substantive backup that the ip address and the vip can be identified (cj's was "btw there is a way to obtain the ip address of the actual host sending the data, in fact there are several ways to do it and several tools to get this information.")
Now this is important !! we need to find out why they think this and what they think the answer is. We mostly believe that ANts is secure - so we are the worst arbiters of its security - there are none so blind etc...
When the comment is raised that ANts can be broken we need to do what Gwren did with his competition - and see what we can get out of the claimant - and then evaluate it impartially - for our own good.

Secondly
Now I think that the idea of disconnecting from peers that are just proxying data that is not for me - and randomly connecting to another peer instead has some merit. I think that what I select for download often only comes from a few users - most do not have the same taste in music so their available uls are of no interst to me (but are to others no doubt).


how TCP works

http://www.ipanalyser.co.uk/content/tcp_packet.htm

in order to send and recieve packets, like a letter, each packet has a destination and a return address

once the packet is successfully sent, an ACK is sent which acknowleges the packet was recieved and that you don't need it sent again--this is protocol, and without these steps the system does not work efficiently (no source = no ack, which could mean the same packet is sent over and over)

with packet sniffers you can use the source (return address to track back to the proxy, and in some cases, all the way to the source)

p.s. don't get big headed about cj's ban--it had nothing to do with her views on your pitiful program, but instead from her habit of ressurrecting long dead threads and posting whimsical nonsense

[Hornet]

Very good post Chris.

Good point about CJ - I for one hope that identity comes back.




Now I think that the idea of disconnecting from peers that are just proxying data that is not for me - and randomly connecting to another peer instead has some merit. I think that what I select for download often only comes from a few users - most do not have the same taste in music so their available uls are of no interst to me (but are to others no doubt).

Idea is not to disconnect form all peers that are just proxying data not for you - It is to disconnect from some - no more than 50% of such peers.
ANts is an AI agent - the protocol will not make decisions like connecting you to users that share your taste in music. Instead it will try to learn where best to connect to so that you can upload and download with fewer hops. No taste involved :heart
Currently files in ANts travel between 0 to 10 hops that one file using times 10 bandwidth very often. This slows download speed incredibly. So it makes sense to allow the ANts neightbour discovery protocol to reduce the number of hops. This is still at an early stage of development but it will become clearer as it develops.
The purpose of ANts is to files share and yet be able to deny that you were the source of a particular file. Reducing the average number of hops taken by data does not impinge on that. You still cannot tell if a file travelled to/from your neighbour or if your neighbour proxied it. I think it evens randomizes download / upload "speeds" to prevent statistical analysis.
I agree with your implication though that alot of development is still needed for ANts as it still has some memory leaks and CPU use problems. Also, it needs to increase its stability so that it can be run 24/7, 52 weeks of the year in the background as an alternative to the MPAA/RIAA infested internet.

Hornet

[Hornet]

how TCP works

http://www.ipanalyser.co.uk/content/tcp_packet.htm

in order to send and recieve packets, like a letter, each packet has a destination and a return address

once the packet is successfully sent, an ACK is sent which acknowleges the packet was recieved and that you don't need it sent again--this is protocol, and without these steps the system does not work efficiently (no source = no ack, which could mean the same packet is sent over and over)

with packet sniffers you can use the source (return address to track back to the proxy, and in some cases, all the way to the source)


notbob, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be funny or question your judgement but could you explain further.


Where would you put the packet sniffer(s) to discover the source of a file?
Has this technique been used by the RIAA or MPAA?
In ANts a file is often proxied 10 times accross the world would a packet sniffer have to be located at every ISP worldwide to trace the source (like in a Tom Clancey novel)?
Are packet sniffers the tool which CJ was thinking of?
Practically do you think encrypted proxy chains offer more privacy and security than unencrypted direct connections or are you speaking hypothetically stating that packets always leave a record as they are transferred from node. And with enough money, time and politcal co-opeeration you can always find the source of a file?


I am not trying to start an argument/flame war. I just want to understand what you actually think. The questions above just illustrate where I don't understand you.

Hornet

[notbob]

it isn't so much about the packet sniffing, but the packets you collect

lets say you have a encrypted packet--luckily, your client decrypts it for you--so anyone can use the client (or gut it out and take out the decrypting mechanism) and decrypt ants packets

now that they are not encrypted, (if ants encrypts, i think mute and waste do) they can be analyzed with other software to find where they came from (via the "return address") that address can be spoofed of course, but in that case it makes a lot of trouble for someone trying to exchange files

now say you are in law enforcement, and have the ability to do this at the ISP--it would be a simple matter to find who's sending what, and where

this is one of the things crackerjacker "discussed", though most people aren't fluent in cjese

[CactusChris]

Notbob thanks for the explanation but...
The way this proxying thing works is like a chain - the only ip (not vip) address in the message is the next peer in line - that ip is known by all neighbours - but not its vip or the ips it is connected to. At each ip stopover the address is stripped of and the next one inserted. This is what makes the system secure and is in the code for MUTE and ANts - or was 'cos I read it through (once).

However - correct me if i am wrong ;-))

[F0wler]

I'm sure this will give cj time to chill out.

[fnordprefect]

Also, I seriously doubt that all packets in the Ants network are encrypted with the same key. This is the only way that a malicious client could do what Notbob just said barring a brute force attack or a weakness in the encryption algorithm.

So Notbob, which is it:

Ants uses a weak encryption algorithm?
Ants encrypts all packets with the same key?
Ants encrypts packets in such a way that an attacker could brute force the keys?

[crackerjacker]

I'm sure this will give cj time to chill out.

I always be chilling. Was it good for you?
and for your information i am not banned.

[CactusChris]

Hornet said ->ANts is an AI agent - the protocol will not make decisions like connecting you to users that share your taste in music. Instead it will try to learn where best to connect to so that you can upload and download with fewer hops. No taste involved

Sorry - my bad wording - ANts does not know what I like - however what I like is often coming only from a few others who also like the same(ish) things - and not from the majority who have only things I do not like. So the consequence of Gwren's new idea is that I will find myself connected more closely to those peers who have files that i like (over a period of time).

Question - latest version has these mods in? I ran it overnight and was not impresssed (only on one test) on proxy/dl ratios.....I think it was 0.7.8

Regards
Chris

[Hornet]

I don't think that Gwren has fully implemented his idea yet as you are right ANts does seem to be a bit sickly since 0.7.8.

However, I do not fully understand what you mean.

Do you not want to be connected to peers that proxy files for you rather than peers that don't?

Sure the fact that all nodes will be doing this creates clusters but this should not affect your downloading experience :hi

Hornet

[cheapprick]

Why is tsafa1 banned?

[The Hunter]

For being overly rude, and obnoxious to another member.

[cheapprick]

And the dozen or so spam posts at 4 in the morning 2 nights ago? A lot of them were more offensive then anything he wrote.

I realize you can't please everyone, but the whole, "she's too powerful to face" stuff flies in the face of the rules a bit. Evilmegaman made the right call but I saw that somebody flipped the switch the next day.

[The Hunter]

It was done after a lot of discussion, and it has nothing to do with her being too powerfull to face. If anyone has a problem with the way things were done, then I take full blame.

[cheapprick]

No no, I was just curious.

The problem with modding is that there is always some absolute penis that thinks they know more than you. :blah

[crackerjacker]

And the dozen or so spam posts at 4 in the morning 2 nights ago? A lot of them were more offensive then anything he wrote.

I realize you can't please everyone, but the whole, "she's too powerful to face" stuff flies in the face of the rules a bit. Evilmegaman made the right call but I saw that somebody flipped the switch the next day.

Feel free to pm me with whatever you want cheapprick once you do that I wont be speaking to you anymore.

You arent even on this site much to know whats going on, and then it seems like you want to question whats going on here.

So do me a favor and tell me how you know Evilmegaman was the one who banned me? You
arent even around to see what is going on around here, i dont mind you putting your two cents in but do you even know what went down the other day,. if you did you wouldnt even question what happened.

To powerful to face? How so maybe you might feel that way, but I just presented the facts ok.

So to be quite honest I feel that you dont know what was going on to put your two cents in to this, and this means no disrespect to you but I feel as of today that I wont be saying anything to you anymore, lucky you. No more pms from me etc. Thats definitely going to make your day.

Thats all you do have the right though to question certain stuff but you aint even around, so whats the point in questioning what happened?

If you had read what I said on the other thread you would understand, but u seem to be in the dark, but then at same time question or say things that doesnt matter.

So later, i did pm you, and feel free to say whatever you want here or anything.

bye and peace

[crackerjacker]

No no, I was just curious.

The problem with modding is that there is always some absolute penis that thinks they know more than you. :blah

You know what cheapprick your not even a moderator here, so why say that?
I havent seen you in around a long time so you know what, say what you want your free to but it holds no water with me. Basically whatever you say means nothing to me and for good reason.

laterz

[Hornet]

Why is tsafa1 banned?

Hunter please bring back tsafa1.

Why are you banning the best people?

ZP needs to be at the cutting edge of file sharing technology not the "edge of reason" harping on about days gone and cosy back patting of old buddy 1000 posters who remember the good old days when there were no leeches and when people were friendly and made posts about things they could understand and be expert about".

Anyway he's sorry see http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/12152004c.php

Hornet

[Mels_Smileys45]

The mods are scared of CJ and they should be. Her fans are many and her clan is more powerful than Microsoft.



and that ants shit is annoying


I would say tasf1 may deserve another chance but i don't know if I want to see any more massive app spamming.

[Watchmen]

I feel it best that members stay out of moderator decisions.

[crackerjacker]

Hunter please bring back tsafa1.

Why are you banning the best people?

ZP needs to be at the cutting edge of file sharing technology not the "edge of reason" harping on about days gone and cosy back patting of old buddy 1000 posters who remember the good old days when there were no leeches and when people were friendly and made posts about things they could understand and be expert about".

Anyway he's sorry see http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/12152004c.php

Hornet

The best people?
And you would classify someone as calling someone and idiot and telling them to get their ged a great person, when all I stated in the other thread was my opinion, and wasnt even negative, and I didnt even criticize ants. And more then that I did make a post awhile ago wondering if they going to put a mute and ants forum in here.

Why would it matter then if the best people arent what it seems to be, I am far from perfect but I didnt even do nothing then to have Tsafa call me names. IN fact thats one of the best people then fine with me.

whatever you like.

[aqlo]

I have to agree with the moderators and the decision they made. We get a whole new thread from tsafa1 every single day about nothing in particular except ANts. We know about ANts, we are following the existing threads, why not use them for this "new stuff" that isn't new? A response from gwren to a question that was asked in another forum about something someone might have wondered about at some time in the future or something, that's not technical thread material. It's not really appropriate even for the lounge. It is just barely suitable for bouncing an existing thread that hasn't seen any real user traffic in a while.

Why does this stuff enrage people? We can't do it, so you can't either, that's why. I'm not seeing you guys in the lounge, I'm not seeing you as part of the community, all I'm seeing is consistent fanboying every single day without even the slightest bit of art to it. Stop it, it makes us tired, it makes our eyes bleed worse than Modestas.

As for CJ, she's a real user. She's not here for Grwen or Vinny or whoever, she lives here; this is her place. She can do whatever she wants as far as I'm concerned, and she always knows what she's talking about.

[crackerjacker]

I just wanna add one more quick thing, and i will say it quickly i often bring up old threads lots of them, i always have done this. I always post on these forums for years, so like i said, its not new, and havent been banned for this.

the point is sometimes i wanna post or say something if i have something on my mind, its not wrong to do this.

besides that if someone doesnt like a thread that others post in dont read it. it may seem like spam to some but it really isnt. thats just me being me.

i am not going to change for no one in that aspect, o tho i have curbed how i do it at times.
even evil has mentioned in the past that i delete my own threads if i feel its not approriate.

i just post spontaneously as well, if i am feeling moody, its best to do that so i can calm down.


peace

[crackerjacker]

Hunter please bring back tsafa1.

Why are you banning the best people?

ZP needs to be at the cutting edge of file sharing technology not the "edge of reason" harping on about days gone and cosy back patting of old buddy 1000 posters who remember the good old days when there were no leeches and when people were friendly and made posts about things they could understand and be expert about".

Anyway he's sorry see http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/12152004c.php

Hornet

Just for the record in that thread he says carjacker, my name isnt car jacker its crackerjacker, and hes sorry?
i doubt it.
ok
they should unban him though. but really thats all i am going to say on this. as far as it is, if i say something about any subject be it ants, iants, dogster or whatever, its my damn right, and as long as i dont go and call others names its ok.

if they flame me then they will get it back.

other then that let him be unban. its up to mods.
once again my names crackerjacker not car jack *grr*

[cheapprick]

@cj
I'm still here everyday, I just post when I feel like it. I admit that's somewhat less than rebirth or melsmiley. Partly that's because I allow only ZP's cookies, not the advertising cookies, so it refuses to keep me logged in.

As for backseat moderating, anyone who read the news stories 2 years ago saw you do it daily. So no problem there.

@aqlo
2 Things:
- tsafa1 wasn't banned for spamming, it was for offending cj
- about every 2 months crackerjacker goes off the handle and gets banned [except it's not a real banning because she's back under the very same name within a day or two] She ended up being banned the same day as Tsafa with the clear provisio that it was for 4 days. She had a tantrum and spammed the forums at 3 or 4 in the morning under one of the other names. Result? She was reinstated.

I'm not even saying I want to see her banned. Clearly she physically represents this site like no other person. But, I don't have to avoid saying shit when I see it spread so liberally.

[crackerjacker]

@cj
I'm still here everyday, I just post when I feel like it. I admit that's somewhat less than rebirth or melsmiley. Partly that's because I allow only ZP's cookies, not the advertising cookies, so it refuses to keep me logged in.

As for backseat moderating, anyone who read the news stories 2 years ago saw you do it daily. So no problem there.

@aqlo
2 Things:
- tsafa1 wasn't banned for spamming, it was for offending cj
- about every 2 months crackerjacker goes off the handle and gets banned [except it's not a real banning because she's back under the very same name within a day or two] She ended up being banned the same day as Tsafa with the clear provisio that it was for 4 days. She had a tantrum and spammed the forums at 3 or 4 in the morning under one of the other names. Result? She was reinstated.

I'm not even saying I want to see her banned. Clearly she physically represents this site like no other person. But, I don't have to avoid saying shit when I see it spread so liberally.


nope i dont get banned every 2 months like you think, for your information i just started posting here again.

do u really know what tsafa was banned, it wasnt for offending me, hes been spamming the forums ok, and for flaming. u seem to got your information confused.

its easy to unblock cookies.

it was for four days, really, u know more then i do about me being banned then. ''

i had a tantrum, thats what u think. but its ok thats your right. i wont lose sleep over it.

cheaprick what you deem warranted, is not what needs to be, as per say, you are the one who should know better. its not like u wasnt a mod here in the past, and then left to do other stuff.

u want fair game, flaming and spamming goes both hand in hand. i am still banned on my other id if u bothered to look. *but u didnt bother*.

do you know why i was reinstated? Or do u just assume because of your own ideas.
like i said u seem to dont know whats going on over here.

enuff i am not going to say anymore about this. you do things your way cheapprick and let the mods who run this site do what they need to do. and please next time get your information straighten out.

take care
peace

[The Hunter]

Point, I cleaned up the spam, but it had no bearing whatsoever on her being reinstated.

[fnordprefect]

If someone gets banned it should be permanent or what is the point?

I can see that there may be good reason for letting someone return, but it should be only after they apologise and promise never to repeat whatever behaviour it was that led to their banning. If they fark up again...out they go, never to return.

[MushroomheadXIII]

I'll consider using it in the future but i have the suspicion that tsafa1 and hornet are one and the same. They both post after another and have the same feedback. Still, good information! :)

[Psilaxs]

@cj
I'm still here everyday, I just post when I feel like it. I admit that's somewhat less than rebirth or melsmiley. Partly that's because I allow only ZP's cookies, not the advertising cookies, so it refuses to keep me logged in.

As for backseat moderating, anyone who read the news stories 2 years ago saw you do it daily. So no problem there.

@aqlo
2 Things:
- tsafa1 wasn't banned for spamming, it was for offending cj
- about every 2 months crackerjacker goes off the handle and gets banned [except it's not a real banning because she's back under the very same name within a day or two] She ended up being banned the same day as Tsafa with the clear provisio that it was for 4 days. She had a tantrum and spammed the forums at 3 or 4 in the morning under one of the other names. Result? She was reinstated.

I'm not even saying I want to see her banned. Clearly she physically represents this site like no other person. But, I don't have to avoid saying shit when I see it spread so liberally.

Cj isn't rude to people unless provoked, she doesn't flame people per se' ; there are plenty of other people here you could single out that would be a MUCH better example.

There are always exceptions to rules in any given circumstance, zeropaid and forums are no different, such is life. I for one do not think hunter did anything wrong with not banning (or unbanning as the case may be) CJ.