ITIC Says ANonymous and encrypted P2P enrolling new users

[ezzye]

I don't know if anyone else has posted this.

According to IT Innovations and Concepts (ITIC) P2P music statistics for October:

P2P population: eDonkey (eMule, Overnet...) is definitely #1. The FastTrack Network (KaZaA) did not recover its users (-13%). The rate of ``new P2P users" stabilized at +3% while emerging platforms (BitTorrent...) are still scoring the fastest and most noticeable growth. 4.6% of the people actively connected during September decided to change their P2P application in October. Anonymous and encrypted P2P platforms like FreeNet, Mute, Ants... are still enrolling new users.



More: http://www.itic.ca/DIC/News/2004/11/05/P2P_Statistics_Oct_2004.en.html

[notbob]

the ignorant sheep from kazaa have to go somewhere, and if they believe the hype from bozos like you, they'll go to ants and other "anonymous" p2p

but going and staying are two different things, and there's no way "anonymous" p2p can keep regular users in the state it is today (unless they are zealots with freakish devotion to a cause or overoptimistic idealogues like you)

[Watchmen]

the ignorant sheep from kazaa have to go somewhere, and if they believe the hype from bozos like you, they'll go to ants and other "anonymous" p2p

but going and staying are two different things, and there's no way "anonymous" p2p can keep regular users in the state it is today (unless they are zealots with freakish devotion to a cause or overoptimistic idealogues like you)

damn...and I thought I was harsh.

[Wolfie]

damn...and I thought I was harsh.

You haven't seen even half of it, lol. ;)

[Stownplayer]

the ignorant sheep from kazaa have to go somewhere, and if they believe the hype from bozos like you, they'll go to ants and other "anonymous" p2p

but going and staying are two different things, and there's no way "anonymous" p2p can keep regular users in the state it is today (unless they are zealots with freakish devotion to a cause or overoptimistic idealogues like you)


now that is funny. Gotta love zeropaid

[AussieMatt]

next year notbob will be saying annoymous p2p i was there when they started that, rember bob WASTE calls itself "annonymous" also

[notbob]

next year notbob will be saying annoymous[sic] p2p i was there when they started that, rember [not]bob WASTE calls itself "annonymous"[sic] also

you need to drink less of your product

it's a pretty good bet that anonymous p2p will still suck next year, and probably 10 more after, unless ISPs start giving out MB up and down connections to everyone worldwide

[AussieMatt]

yeah bob its called wireless broadband and Internet2

[notbob]

yeah [not]bob its called wireless broadband and Internet2


and if you think the common man is getting either one in the next 10 years, you are fucking nuts

not in the USA anyway, because phone and cable companies are happy with what they have right now

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

How long was a working Intenet(1) out before it was released to the public?

[notbob]

How long was a working Intenet(1) out before it was released to the public?

almost 30 years

[ezzye]

the ignorant sheep from kazaa have to go somewhere, and if they believe the hype from bozos like you, they'll go to ants and other "anonymous" p2p

but going and staying are two different things, and there's no way "anonymous" p2p can keep regular users in the state it is today (unless they are zealots with freakish devotion to a cause or overoptimistic idealogues like you)

notbob The zealots with freakish devotion to a cause or over-optomistic idealogues also include Downhill Battle (http://www.downhillbattle.org/). I quote:
"We totally see this as fitting into an ecosystem of other programs. It's a close distinction, but here's how I'd put it: the target audience for our client will be people who don't understand the technology too well.

If somebody understands the technology and the legal risk, and wants to use bittorrent or ed2k, then we've given them another tool to protect themselves. If somebody just wants a nice toy to get music with and isn't keeping up on the RIAA's machinations in Congress, we want them to switch to this client or something like MUTE or Ants that protects them. The thing that upset and infuriated us most when we were working on the Defense Fund were the number of people who had *no idea* the lawsuits were coming and got caught completely by surprise. Just in simple moral terms, we want to do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen again except with jail sentences this time. And that non-savvy user is exactly who we'll be gearing the client to, in terms of both the UI design and the promotion. When this thing comes out, it's not just going to be some mathy project on a Sourceforge page; we're going to promote it in ways that will reach lots of kids, moms, and dads. Because they're the ones who run the biggest risk of being blindsided. For more goto http://p2pnet.net/story/2982

ANts is still been developed. New updates are coming out nightly. It works. I share a very very large mp3 collection using it and also download more music that I can listen to using ANts.

It is buggy. It is not as fast as bit torrent or newsgroups. But it is free, has chat and allows you to share all your files safely.

It is not for everyone. If the recent law suits worry you AND you want to take part in the development of a new opensource p2p program then gives ANts a try. If it does not work for you wait a couple of months before trying it again as it is been constantly developed.

[AussieMatt]

Originally Posted by AussieMatt
yeah [not]bob its called wireless broadband and Internet2


and if you think the common man is getting either one in the next 10 years, you are fucking nuts

not in the USA anyway, because phone and cable companies are happy with what they have right now
The the telephone and cable comapanies are trying to stop the development of wireless commuity nets and are looking to stop the roll out of the Phillidelphia City Cloud wi-fi network a 10 Millon Dollar Project to make 135 sq. miles one giant hot spot Verizon and other broadband companies have intorduced a Bill to stop public funding of such projects


A bill was introduced at the state level in Pennsylvania that would prohibit the kind of networks that Philly plans to build. Comcast and Verizon denied any interest in suppressing the plan, noting that the bill has been in the works for a year, and includes a revamp of educational telecommunications funding.

House Bill 30
A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OR ANY entity established by
a political subdivision, including a municipal authority, may
not provide any telecommunications services to the public for
compensation within the service territory of a local exchange
telecommunications company operating under a network
modernization plan.
Clearly looks like big bussiness trying to stifle innovation ,commuinty interest and sticking to outdated bussiness models .Will they will be sueing community's and anyone who use a community net next .They look like the music industry already.

So this is why The US is about 10th on the list of broadband adaoption .

[aqlo]

This is a perfect example of the sort of bullshit that is coming out of you every single day. The story is about Gaim!

Gaim goes under a GNU General Public License (GPL) and works on all 32-bit MS Windows (95/98/NT/2000/XP), All BSD Platforms (FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD/Apple Mac OS X), All POSIX (Linux/BSD/UNIX-like OSes) and Linux operating systems.

Now, Downhill Battle sees IM-integrated Gaim as a way to stop US p2p file sharers from landing in prison.

They want to raise $500 to kick off a Gaim-Integrated Filesharing project. The money would be used to hire a skilled lead developer. "We're in a race to get this done," says a project web page.

"Think about how you felt when they started suing people. Now think how you're going to feel when they send somebody to jail. We have to stop this from happening."

We wondered if that meant Downhill Battle believes GAIM-Integrated Filesharing V1.0 will mean the end of 'traditional' file sharing.

"No," DHB's Holmes Wilson told p2pnet, going on, "We totally see this as fitting into an ecosystem of other programs. It's a close distinction, but here's how I'd put it: the target audience for our client will be people who don't understand the technology too well.

ANts gets mentioned one time, as an afterthought, and note that it isn't actually being recommended, only "something like" it. That is, if you don't use Gaim, which is their pet project and hardly "anonymous" just private, then it might be worthwhile in that extremity to try something slower than freenet and more mismarketed than es5.

[CactusChris]

Well done flat worlders - carry on and eventually one day the world will be flat (NOT).
Remember this later on - one day all p2p will be anonymous and you will be left on the sidelines, having missed the fun of development, wingeing and crying - or having to swallow your overlarge pride and slink into the anonymous community hoping no-one notices.
If I remember correctly - you were the same people who tried to start a flame war saying that the forums were being spammed by pro MUTE/ANts advocates - well now they have moved to their own forum - out of your sight and hearing - and you STILL have to follow and spam this forum! If you do'nt like this discussion group you are free to leave...

[derden]

Well said, CactusChris.
Notbob and aglo are absolutely free to leave this forum. Nobody will regret them. And if they want to stay and DISCUSS they are welcome too, if they can express themselves without being slanderous.
For the moment I propose we just ignore any posts with harsh language and without any intelectual interest

[aqlo]

Well done flat worlders - carry on and eventually one day the world will be flat (NOT).
Remember this later on - one day all p2p will be anonymous and you will be left on the sidelines, having missed the fun of development, wingeing and crying - or having to swallow your overlarge pride and slink into the anonymous community hoping no-one notices.
If I remember correctly - you were the same people who tried to start a flame war saying that the forums were being spammed by pro MUTE/ANts advocates - well now they have moved to their own forum - out of your sight and hearing - and you STILL have to follow and spam this forum! If you do'nt like this discussion group you are free to leave...

Similar misrepresentation of every aspect of this discussion by the new one-post wonder above.

a) No, I'm the second wave, I didn't say word 1 about this debate until it was already decided to give the program a forum of its own.

b) No, ANts having its own forum doesn't mean people are prohibited from disagreeing with you, just that there is now an appropriate place to disagree with you without disturbing the people who prefer not to give a rat's ass. I e, it's not a castle, it's a cage.

c) We have heard this all before, from people equally ill-mannered, and we aren't forgetting any time soon.

d) I'm not spamming, I'm discussing Ants, specifically how it is being sold through terrorism rather than fair and open debate as a result of childish emotional outbursts on the part of the people fanboying it.

e) It's a damn shame that you guys would rather pick fights with every single board and site that gives you a chance to talk instead of bothering to respond to the desperate questions from actual users who have the thing in front of them and don't understand why it isn't working worth a damn.

f) based on your characteristic misspellings I already know who you are, and any mod can check your IP and verify this is the case. Bye !!! :tilted

[AussieMatt]

Downhill Battle have made a proposal to get this GAIM filesharing plugin off the ground and it just that a proposal, if you go look at the brief it doesnt metion any network or programing language for the plugin .They would prefer to use GAIM because of its ease of use but it has to be said thier trust model is flawed through social engenieering a RIAA agent or even worse a FBI agent could get into your trusted group then log all activity like they did with the Direct Connect UNDERGROUND Network .

I do know they where considering Jeti-ants but they really want to use GAIM with some sort of secure protocol like Ants and contacted Grwen to overlook thier proposal and asked him if he would like to be part of the development team .WASTE could suit thier needs also .There is many options and ideas for this client so nothing is set in stone Im sure Downhill battle is still work thier way through submitions

t has been found Jabber protocol is probably the only protocol that can be used for bootstraping onto the ANts network because of it is distributed and open source and it gives up a real IP for bootsraping purposes .
Jabber also has a experimental filesharing extention that can be intergrated into this client if Downhill Battle wishes to use it http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0135.html
So what ever way they go looks like everyone will have to set up a Jabber account (what a nightmare for newbs) so I hope they also create a Jabber accont wizard
All the other proprietary chat protocols like ICQ ,AOL,MSN and yahoo connect to a central server and are closed source so its almost impossibel to intergrate them with out some sort of reverse enginneering .

To be quite honest Ants and its JETI plugin already do most of the things this project proposes but it is a filesharing client with intergrated Instant messaging and the project proposes Instant Messaging with a filesharing Plugin .
Ants in my opinion is better suited to this enviroment becuase the peers are geograpicaly closer to each other so less distance for proxing and the nodes will be on most of the time so the network will remain stable.In thoery it has been said that Ant Based routing has troubles with scaling so the IM enviroment may be where it should be. Ants offers mulitsource and resume unlike MUTE at this current time .A MUTE style plugin that offered multisource and resume would be preferable as it is programed in c++ and cross platform .

The develpers of the GAIM project have resisted intergrating filesharing into the main client in the past ,this project may get them to rethink and intergrate filesharing into the main trunk in the future.

[aqlo]

Thanks Matt, finally some more content!

I think you are right about a trusted-messaging group like gaim (or waste) helping to speed up programs using the ants protocol. Right now DB's gaim proposal doesn't seem much safer than what Yahoo for example already has. Adding slicker encryption and some confusion about sources really could improve the user's safety, hopefully without slowing things down too much.

Also, I still agree with fucktard back there (as much as i hate to say it) that filter lists will help the users peace-of-mind while testing this program, any chance of that happening soon?

[MushroomheadXIII]

The reason why bt is growing super-fast is because it's not an ordinary click&search program based around some sort of server...bt RULES! And will never die.

[AussieMatt]

I have to say you guys that support Ants we need the detractors and naysayers and critics of Ants .If we can give them well resarched reasoned debate without flaming we actually may gain a few supporters or converts .
Ants needs people to pull it apart and provide fair and balanced critism so it can be improved and dont take the critics comment as a personal attack try to inform them and if they do point out a flaw they find in Ants that is valid make a bug report about it or feature request @ sourcforge so grwen can see it and improve ants even more..
Ants critics please give well considered argument and we all might actually gain somthing from this whole debate insteads of a message board flame war.

Grwen doesnt comment on most of the forums and has denounced any spaming of Ants and would rather see it grow on its own meritsThis baord mainly talks about he ethics and legal issues surrounding ants anyway .
He is actully consdering dropping the whole JETI-Ants project becuse of the amount of spaming done by Euesval on various forums and mailing lists giving Ants a bad name .Euseval has pretended he is part of the Ants Team this is incorrect . The only team and developer is Grwen at the momnet and alot of ethusiatic beta testers who provide him with freeback through IRC or Sourceforge .Eusval is known as ABC_Thelookoflove on Zeropaid and was banned for a week for spaming the Ants Board as soon as it opened giveing ants a bad reputaion again.
Eusval Also Hijacked the WIKI set up by Eric from Jeti and the JetiAnts.tk domain while he added some good infomation there it looks like its his project and not really Grwens or Erics .So supporters and critics of Ants take this into consideration when posting and lets make Ants get the good reputation it deserves .Im sure may of the critics would like to have a project like Ants or MUTE to be sucessfull if it is presented in a way that is honest and well though out .

[AussieMatt]

Thanks Matt, finally some more content!

I think you are right about a trusted-messaging group like gaim (or waste) helping to speed up programs using the ants protocol. Right now DB's gaim proposal doesn't seem much safer than what Yahoo for example already has. Adding slicker encryption and some confusion about sources really could improve the user's safety, hopefully without slowing things down too much.

Also, I still agree with fucktard back there (as much as i hate to say it) that filter lists will help the users peace-of-mind while testing this program, any chance of that happening soon? IF you are following the Kazza case in Australia at all you will see what legal problems filtering lists may cause and filtering of ojectionable content is the Australian Music Industry's main argument against Kazza.

Tony Bannon SC. Australian Recording Industry Legal Representative
Bannon started winding up that the newly released Kazaa v3 once again provides no keyword filtering to stop copyright infringement in the same way the system applies adult filters and virus protection, “Kazaa Version 3 provides evidence that these respondents give their blessing and condoning to the copyright infringing ways of their users,” “They have rewarded them with a new and better product to continue their, there's no other way to express it, their robbing ways,” . “Kazaa Version 3, the robbers reward,”
Heres link to this funny candid synopsis of the Daily events in what has been dubbed KazaaGate from Australian Personal Computer magazine it will explain why we dont want filter lists in any p2p.

Day One's proceedings (follow this Article everyday of the Kazza case)
http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/087056D20E183B3BCA256F5C00024F78
(http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/9FBD74475DA46228CA256F5D00139FD2)

[Afn]

Remember this later on - one day all p2p will be anonymous and you will be left on the sidelines...
Secure clients still have some major problems. the killer app of p2p is Wide area search...

Wide area search drives interest in crappy less secure clients. Emule with some type of encryption with wide area search would be the best canidate for a long term stable client. The ed2k links are a great advance in finding specific resources from a URL. Add anonymous source-destination with multiple layers of encryption... if it would work it would be the best of all worlds. (flat or round...joke.)

I think you can not make a totally secure client, but you can create a universe of clients, systems and programs that can work around monopolies and enforcement of ideas that only benefit the select few.

Emule is a great concept... add a layer of secure transmission and anon. transfer of packets, and you have the best concept. People drive p2p, and if p2p over the internet were to end, people would still network and share.

[notbob]

here's the deal

while ants/mute work (if you can install all the dependencies and manually configure things), even the people who use them will admit they suck for getting what you want

so, like es5 before them, they have taken to the public forums to try to get users, because their core base of loyal members of the cult aren't cutting it

so why else would you stand by a p2p with no files or users on the hope that it will get bigger? why do people go to church with the hope of going to heaven? irrational blind faith, of course

while your irrational blind faith makes it look to you as though this is the greatest thing since pre-shredded cheese, to the average file sharer on kazaa or any other p2p all the setup and screwing around to get it to work (or not), and then to get on there and not find any files you want is a huge letdown

practicality and pragmatism are more important than anything. someday there will be a good anonymous program, but in order for it to succeed, it will need to be easy to set up and run so that lots of users will get into it, and you will need everyone on it to have a lot of disposable bandwidth so that downloads are unaffected

as it is now, neither of those bases are covered

[ezzye]

IF you are following the Kazza case in Australia at all you will see what legal problems filtering lists may cause and filtering of ojectionable content is the Australian Music Industry's main argument against Kazza.

Tony Bannon SC. Australian Recording Industry Legal Representative

Heres link to this funny candid synopsis of the Daily events in what has been dubbed KazaaGate from Australian Personal Computer magazine it will explain why we dont want filter lists in any p2p.

Day One's proceedings (follow this Article everyday of the Kazza case)
http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/087056D20E183B3BCA256F5C00024F78
(http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/9FBD74475DA46228CA256F5D00139FD2)

Lots of good well researched points as usual AussieMatt. Thanks for keeping us informed.

However, I would like to point out that the filtering mentioned in the Kazaa case is totally different in nature to what I am proposing.

Big music wants Kazaa to filter content so that copyrighted material can't be shared.

All I am proposing is to add an extra couple of criteria to the search (query) fields that allow users to specify words to include or exclude in every search results (a black and white list). This in no way impacts on what is being shared. It is just a cosmetic measure as other have already stated you could just ignore unwanted search results.

IMHO I think such a search filter would enhance user friendliness and would make some people feel better about ANts.

The relevant quote from the Kazaa case is:
Meagher remains resolute that they can not force the Kazaa system to filter out copyrighted material without also cutting out a lot of other files that may carry similar names. The example he used was, well, if we filter out Delta Goodrem, then it'll also stop the mass rush of people wanting Helen Reddy's song Delta Dawn. Note this is talking about content not search filtering.

EDIT: I have tried to make it clear that it is up to USERS to specify search terms for black and white list.

[notbob]

Lots of good well researched points as usual AussieMatt. Thanks for keeping us informed.

However, I would like to point out that the filtering mentioned in the Kazaa case is totally different in nature to what I am proposing.

Big music wants Kazaa to filter content so that copyrighted material can't be shared.

All I am proposing is to add an extra couple of criteria to the search (query) fields that allow using to specify words to include or exclude in every search results (a black and white list). This in no way impacts on what is being shared. It is just a cosmetic measure as other have already stated you could just ignore unwanted search results.

IMHO I think such a search filter would enhance user friendliness and would make some people feel better about ANts.

The relevant quote from the Kazaa case is:
Note this is talking about content not search filtering.

that is hilarious coming from the guy who wants ants to filter out kiddy porn

if ARIA (aussie record industry) were to get the search filter to become mandatory, it would block all users from making those searches (or at least block them from getting results), in effect, blocking content

as for kiddy porn, users electing to block searches (like kazaa) wouldn't work, since the users looking for objectionable content and sharing it would obviously not use the filters--people blocking searches would be simply looking the other way while the kiddy porn continued to be shared (i don't see it, therfore it doesn't exist)

[AussieMatt]

Yes ezzey ill have to agree with you on this, the easiest solution for the **AA's around the world if they where really serious would be to produce a list for users to download a block list that filtered out well constructed search queries of files thier members claim copyright to . Somthing Like RIAA Radar already does http://www.magnetbox.com/riaa/ .

The music industry doesnt want to do this becuse they already get analysis of p2p network activity through data mining and network monitoring companies so they can make predictions and projections of potential sales with these statistics .
The Music indusrty also wants to control the distibution chanel's and keep thier outdated bussiness models of top heavy managemet and the Artists at the bottom of the heap.

If a independant artist makes it big without support from the major labels by distributing on a p2p network the music industry has no control over the music industry will consider this a loss . Independant artists can already do with a system like Weedshare (DRM for independant musicains) http://www.weedshare.com/
The Indusrty will have to become contractors to the artists if filesharing becomes the mian distribution model at the momnet as it stands the musicians are employees of the Music Indusrty.
Itunes and other pay for mp3 scemes sponsored by the music indusrty continue this lagacy of contrloing the distibution channel and market forces .
This is one of the main reasons the major lables reject voluntary colective licencing scemes becuse they dont want to become contrators who have to bid to provide services.Yhey would also maybe loose control who they wanted to become the next major pop diva becuse anyone could become popular via the internet .
More on Collective licencing
http://www.eff.org/share/collective_lic_wp.php

[AussieMatt]

bob[sic] made some good points ( i usually try to dissagree with him LOL) if the purveyers of kiddy porn change the name of keywords will the people who filter content have to check every file and filter by file hash a imposiible task on a daily basis .All it does is stifle people who are looking for files and could be seen as a block to people who use p2p for legal purposes .It would be up to the user to block these names and they should be warned that the system will probably be unusable .I think we are coming to a consencus in this discussion .

[Watchmen]

[shit sandwich]History has taught us that if we fail to learn from its mistakes we are doomed to repeat it. Notice how 'aussiematt' uses similiar tactics as 'scarepro' once used in promoting es5?
Overfriendliness to negativity and always having a higher up scapegoat them himself (FileHoover) to pawn off problems to? In this case its 'gwren'
Something else to consider...most messageboard admins and mods have more than one nickname they use so that they can post in a more relaxed manner without the need for so much politeness.
I wonder sometimes about a few posters here and who else they MIGHT be. Almost for got to mention THIS the TRADEMARK overuse of CAPITALISATION to EMPHASIZE KEY POINTS but used sparingly.[/shit sandwich]

if ur going to feed it to us might as well call it what it is.

[AussieMatt]

Watchmen you seem way too parinoid

[notbob]

Watchmen you seem way too parinoid

that coming from the guy pimping anonymous p2p is the most hilarious thing i read all day

if you aren't paranoid why do you need anonymous p2p?

[Afn]

while ants/mute work (if you can install all the dependencies and manually configure things), even the people who use them will admit they suck for getting what you want

so, like es5 before them, they have taken to the public forums to try to get users, because their core base of loyal members of the cult aren't cutting it

so why else would you stand by a p2p with no files or users on the hope that it will get bigger? why do people go to church with the hope of going to heaven? irrational blind faith, of course

while your irrational blind faith makes it look to you as though this is the greatest thing since pre-shredded cheese, to the average file sharer on kazaa or any other p2p all the setup and screwing around to get it to work (or not), and then to get on there and not find any files you want is a huge letdown

practicality and pragmatism are more important than anything. someday there will be a good anonymous program, but in order for it to succeed, it will need to be easy to set up and run so that lots of users will get into it, and you will need everyone on it to have a lot of disposable bandwidth so that downloads are unaffected
Well said, notbob. Emule is easy, and DC++ is simple. The learning curve is a problem, as with any new application. The content industries would love to kill file sharing so they can profit from the unreliability of p2p.

If a one click install p2p client did exist, and offered a wide selection and secure transmissions, (I am working one one, btw. :) then that would be the end of most paid media consumption.

Big media wants to break p2p and the internet so they can program you to the values that they want you to hear and think about. I want p2p to win over big media.

Big media is doomed, and it is a matter of time before big business and big media release content direct on p2p or face extinction.

[Watchmen]

aussiematt where are you from?

[AussieMatt]

bob you dont understand what Ants is its based on ad hock wi-fi network principals and not on traditional filesharing network principals and its a University resarch project not a comercial enterprise so no need for spouting your buzzword analogys or comparison to commercial networks . Try and look to the future and think out of the box ,
Its not a matter of content its a matter of resarch like Malicious Intent has said before and can we get somthing like Ants to do somthing other networks dont
.If you have read any of my other posts in the past you will know the Navy developed TOR. Now why would the US navy be developing a proxy chaing overlay network ? I'll answer secure communications that cant be snooped on or make it extreamly hard to snoop on that communication.
The FCC is trying to overregulate the internet and every other facet of communiction and transmission including wireless communication Do really want that much govornment intrusion in your day to day life .
MUTE is soley about trying to evade the RIAA's methods just look at the MUTE website.Jason Roher did have Chat running on MUTE before he decided to make purley a file sharing app .
Ants protocol has many other uses it already has a Webbrowser and webserver built in for transmission of webpages over ants protocol many other things are planned like chat ,streaming that the regular internet has .
Ants is about WAN's and transmitting communication on them in a safe way but I suppose you havnt bothered to do any research ,as you think legislation or some landmark court case will protect you from sharing infringing copyrighted files .

[Watchmen]

bob you dont understand what Ants is its based on ad hock wi-fi network principals and not on traditional filesharing network principals and its a University resarch project not a comercial enterprise so no need for spouting your buzzword analogys or comparison to commercial networks . Try and look to the future and think out of the box ,
Its not a matter of content its a matter of resarch like Malicious Intent has said before and can we get somthing like Ants to do somthing other networks dont
.If you have read any of my other posts in the past you will know the Navy developed TOR. Now why would the US navy be developing a proxy chaing overlay network ? I'll answer secure communications that cant be snooped on or make it extreamly hard to snoop on that communication.
The FCC is trying to overregulate the internet and every other facet of communiction and transmission including wireless communication Do really want that much govornment intrusion in your day to day life .
MUTE is soley about trying to evade the RIAA's methods just look at the MUTE website.Jason Roher did have Chat running on MUTE before he decided to make purley a file sharing app .
Ants protocol has many other uses it already has a Webbrowser and webserver built in for transmission of webpages over ants protocol many other things are planned like chat ,streaming that the regular internet has .
Ants is about WAN's and transmitting communication on them in a safe way but I suppose you havnt bothered to do any research ,as you think legislation or some landmark court case will protect you from sharing infringing copyrighted files .

notice how he AVOIDS answering DIRECT questions?
classic sharepro.
We've asked two simple questions:

1)Where are you from?

and

2)Why do you need to use an anonymous p2p network?

Why can't you answer us?

It was common for Sharepro to do this on the es5 forums...totally changing the subject and ignoring what was being asked.

[Watchmen]

that's also like the third edit in ten minutes...i can't keep up with all of them.

[3rdgen]

I agree with notbob, Stownplayer, aqlo and watchman. To sum up it goes like this:

the ignorant sheep from kazaa have to go somewhere, and if they believe the hype from bozos like you, they'll go to ants and other "anonymous" p2p

but going and staying are two different things, and there's no way "anonymous" p2p can keep regular users in the state it is today (unless they are zealots with freakish devotion to a cause or overoptimistic idealogues like you)
Yoy ants guys are bozos, an "anonymous" p2p can't work that's why you got no users. You are zealots.
now that is funny. Gotta love zeropaid
If you can't stand the heat don't post - You're on Zeropaid now
you need to drink less of your product

it's a pretty good bet that anonymous p2p will still suck next year, and probably 10 more after, unless ISPs start giving out MB up and down connections to everyone worldwide
Don't you get it yet "anonymous" p2p sucks.
and if you think the common man is getting either one in the next 10 years, you are fucking nuts

not in the USA anyway, because phone and cable companies are happy with what they have right now
YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING NUTS.
This is a perfect example of the sort of bullshit that is coming out of you every single day. The story is about Gaim!
Ants is BULLSHIT
b) No, ANts having its own forum doesn't mean people are prohibited from disagreeing with you, just that there is now an appropriate place to disagree with you without disturbing the people who prefer not to give a rat's ass. I e, it's not a castle, it's a cage.

c) We have heard this all before, from people equally ill-mannered, and we aren't forgetting any time soon.

d) I'm not spamming, I'm discussing Ants, specifically how it is being sold through terrorism rather than fair and open debate as a result of childish emotional outbursts on the part of the people fanboying it.
We don't like ants and don't give a RAT'S ASS about you fanboys. We heard it all before from ES5. Ants is TERRORISM spouted by childish cry babies. Get lost Fanboys.
f) based on your characteristic misspellings I already know who you are, and any mod can check your IP and verify this is the case. Bye !!!
We know most of your posts are by one person!
Also, I still agree with fucktard back there (as much as i hate to say it) that filter lists will help the users peace-of-mind while testing this program, any chance of that happening soon?
FUCKTARDS please post some real content.
so, like es5 before them, they have taken to the public forums to try to get users, because their core base of loyal members of the cult aren't cutting it

so why else would you stand by a p2p with no files or users on the hope that it will get bigger? why do people go to church with the hope of going to heaven? irrational blind faith, of course

while your irrational blind faith makes it look to you as though this is the greatest thing since pre-shredded cheese, to the average file sharer on kazaa or any other p2p all the setup and screwing around to get it to work (or not), and then to get on there and not find any files you want is a huge letdown
Ants is just like ES5. A cult - irrational blind faith like the belief in GOD.
[shit sandwich]History has taught us that if we fail to learn from its mistakes we are doomed to repeat it. Notice how 'aussiematt' uses similiar tactics as 'scarepro' once used in promoting es5?
Overfriendliness to negativity and always having a higher up scapegoat them himself (FileHoover) to pawn off problems to? In this case its 'gwren'
Something else to consider...most messageboard admins and mods have more than one nickname they use so that they can post in a more relaxed manner without the need for so much politeness.
I wonder sometimes about a few posters here and who else they MIGHT be. Almost for got to mention THIS the TRADEMARK overuse of CAPITALISATION to EMPHASIZE KEY POINTS but used sparingly.[/shit sandwich]

if ur going to feed it to us might as well call it what it is.
We know most of your post are by one person.
if you aren't paranoid why do you need anonymous p2p?
Zeropaid does not need paranoid people who can't answer direct questions like you ant fanboys.

[notbob]

bob you dont understand what Ants is its based on ad hock[sic] wi-fi network principals[sic] and not on traditional filesharing network principals[sic] and its[sic] a University resarch project not a comercial enterprise so no need for spouting your buzzword analogys[sic] or comparison to commercial networks . Try and look to the future and think out of the box ,
Its not a matter of content its a matter of resarch like Malicious Intent has said before and can we get somthing like Ants to do somthing other networks dont[sic]
.If you have read any of my other posts in the past you will know the Navy developed TOR. Now why would the US navy be developing a proxy chaing[sic] overlay network ? I'll answer secure communications that cant[sic] be snooped on or make it extreamly[sic] hard to snoop on that communication.
The FCC is trying to overregulate the internet and every other facet of communiction and transmission including wireless communication Do really want that much govornment[sic] intrusion in your day to day life .
MUTE is soley about trying to evade the RIAA's methods just look at the MUTE website.Jason Roher did have Chat running on MUTE before he decided to make purley[sic] a file sharing app .
Ants protocol has many other uses it already has a Webbrowser and webserver built in for transmission of webpages over ants protocol many other things are planned like chat ,streaming that the regular internet has .
Ants is about WAN's and transmitting communication on them in a safe way but I suppose you havnt bothered to do any research ,as you think legislation or some landmark court case will protect you from sharing infringing copyrighted files .

if you are going to presume to tell me what i think, at least spell it right, and put it in paragraphs, because that's how i'd think it

here's what i really think (since you obviously can't read the 5 times i already said it)

a) ad hoc wireless does not exist for the general public, and given the current regulatory climate, they won't soon, if ever (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/01/philly_verizon_wireless/ )

b) any network based in the ideas dependent on ad hoc using current networking technology will suck (and they do)

c) the general populace is barely smart enough to use kazaa, and are not capable of figuring out the intricacies of the ants setup process

d) given c) said general populace will not adopt ants en masse, no matter how much bullshit you throw to them

e) legislation will not legalize file sharing, and only underground systems will survive, public p2p as we know it will be dead in 10 to 15 years, your representatives and mine are all too happy to dance for the entertainment industry's money

f) filesharing will probably never be "safe", but it is a risk i am willing to take


p.s. if you are going to tell me not to use buzzwords, you might want to avoid them yourself, like "think outside the box" and "look to the future" the future is a lot like today--in a system based on capital and profit, things really don't change much, as demonstrated by the RIAA/telecom industries. monopoly takes hold, prices stagnate, service decreases. as these monopolies are happy where they are, there is no reason for them to allow change to happen, especially since it will cut into their profits.

keep making and drinking beer, i'm sure there's a future in that, just try to stop posting drunk

[Psilaxs]

Well said, CactusChris.
Notbob and aglo are absolutely free to leave this forum. Nobody will regret them. And if they want to stay and DISCUSS they are welcome too, if they can express themselves without being slanderous.
For the moment I propose we just ignore any posts with harsh language and without any intelectual interest

You are crazy if you think you can convince/cause Notbob and aqlo to leave this forum, as they are senior members. Just because no one is buying your nonsensical bullshit doesn't give you the right to believe you can force members with prestige from these forums.

Just who the hell do you think you are?

[notbob]

You are crazy if you think you can convince/cause Notbob and aqlo to leave this forum, as they are senior members. Just because no one is buying your nonsensical bullshit doesn't give you the right to believe you can force members with prestige from these forums.

Just who the hell do you think you are?

tyler derden from fight club

look how scared i am!

[Psilaxs]

tyler derden from fight club

look how scared i am!

LOL!

On a side note, if this is the kinda of users this program attracts or worse yet, these are the devopers (which i doubt, it takes brains to program) I wouldn't want anyhting to do with this program.

[Afn]

a) ad hoc wireless does not exist for the general public, and given the current regulatory climate, they won't soon, if ever (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/01/philly_verizon_wireless/ )



There is public funded rollout of wireless in other states, and big business is trying to stop local governments from going into the wireless access business. if it goes to court, I think the city will win. Regardless of the decision, wi-max networks and other next generation wireless services will provide access.

The Philly model does set the precedent that a city has a responsibility to provide universal access. Good if you want a connected city. Bad if your a monopolist. I agree that wimax would be a better technology than wifi.

Then again, if a city is wired once, and 802.11 G wireless cameras can be set up from any lamppost, a citywide network could become the next generation of secret police and ad hoc surveillance, so perhaps a win for commercial interests would have some benefits.



b) any network based in the ideas dependent on ad hoc using current networking technology will suck (and they do)



The benefit of the internet is not 5 computers connected in the world but MILLIONS of computers. Wireless technology benefits from universal access because more people use the technology. POTS phone service is obsolete, and millions and millions of miles of copper wire are in the ground as well as a billion dollar infrastructure to make phone calls. We do not have to think about the network and how the network is constructed, we just make the phone call.

The same will happen with wireless. It does not matter if it is the latest standard, when deployed in numbers you get an effect that is greater than the sum of new technology.

I do think if wi-max works, it would be better to use wi-max over wi-fi. Then again, what is the benefit of deploying a system today, or waiting 5 years?




c) the general populace is barely smart enough to use kazaa, and are not capable of figuring out the intricacies of the ants setup process


d) given c) said general populace will not adopt ants en masse, no matter how much bullshit you throw to them




The technology is young. Solutions will mature, become easier to use and more widespread.




e) legislation will not legalize file sharing, and only underground systems will survive, public p2p as we know it will be dead in 10 to 15 years, your representatives and mine are all too happy to dance for the entertainment industry's money

f) filesharing will probably never be "safe", but it is a risk i am willing to take



p2p will never be stopped, it is a new technology and a modification of the client-server model. That is all that it is. What p2p can do is distribute resources to people faster and at less cost than physically mailing a copy of a movie, book, cd or audiotape. It also allows any person with access to equipment to produce a cd, movie and/or book and distribute the product on p2p for no cost, thus reducing the value of commercial product and market.




keep making and drinking beer, I’m sure there's a future in that


There is a future in selling physical things that people need. Intellectual content will not be profitable in the future on the scale that once supported many people in life with good jobs and high standards of living.

Change is constant and everything is in dynamic change.

[Psilaxs]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Change is constant and everything is in dynamic change.




Department of redundancy department.

[Flammee]

What is so flipping hard about bypassing the laws, nothing need to be anonymous.

Why doesn't somebody do this:

1. Create a program that populates like a 100 mb database with unique strings of 0's and 1's
2. Every single file that needs to be shared, will actually just be string of pointers to the actual unique binary strings in the database.
(Which by the way will decrease file size enormously).
3. Upon downloading a file (actually just the list of pointers to db records). The client program will query the database and put the whole thing together.

A: Therefore no copyrighted information has been exchanged.

Now, Bob makes a five minute movie, copyrights it, and his friend Jim downloads it. Bob takes Jim to court for 1$ in damages, and we find out if the whole thing is legal or not.

(Apologize if this has been discussed before, don't read here often)

[Afn]

What is so flipping hard about bypassing the laws, nothing need to be anonymous.

If 60 million people think sharing files over p2p is fair use, and legal, then it is legal. There is a fundamental flaw in copyright. The copyright holder can restrict access. Copyright worked fine before electronic media. The net being the worlds largest and easiest copying machine, restricting access to material is a dumb idea.

That is one of the reasons p2p is popular and needed. We all know of material we purchased that was pure garbage. We all know of information on the web that was free and much better than any commerical product. Will the rights of people to share information win or will the greedy fascists create the rules?

P2p will be around for a long time, and it is not going to go away or become mute-ed.

[aqlo]

Hi flammee, with some minor differences in details, you are describing the Owner-Free Filing system. Much of the work you are describing is already being done, though it has been an annoyingly long haul to get what seems to be a simple code description accomplished. The questions as to whether 0s and 1s can really make a difference in a courtroom situation is still up in the air, maybe by this time next year we will know more.

For more details check the running commentary at thebighack.org and offsystem.sourceforge.net but watch your head, information can be toxic.

[Afn]

Hi flammee, with some minor differences in details, you are describing the Owner-Free Filing system. Much of the work you are describing is already being done, though it has been an annoyingly long haul to get what seems to be a simple code description accomplished. The questions as to whether 0s and 1s can really make a difference in a courtroom situation is still up in the air, maybe by this time next year we will know more.

Why encrypt the source? If you used smaller units, say for example 1kb. Iterate through all combinations of 1kb in bytes, then read the file in 1kb chunks and write to a text file the value of the block.

3 kb file

Block 1 = 15990
Block 2 = 12000
Block 3 = 00923

Then your pc would send the textfile, and since no copyrighted material was passed, just iterate the 3 blocks needed from your master iterated list of all combinations of 1kb, and BANG! you have your file with out it being copied. (a list of numbers can not be copyrighted.) A 100 kb file would have 100 lines.

Has anyone tried this?

[AussieMatt]

Jason Roher, the developer of MUTE , proposed a scheme using a database of non descriptive names to act as unlocking keys for encrypted files

Tangent idea:
A locker/unlocker scheme for files that generates an encrypted file with
a meaningless name and a key file that can unlock the file.
Key files can be distributed via web since they are small and not violating
copyright or other laws.
Encrypted files can be distributed via standard P2P since their names are
meaningless and not incriminating.
Users could look up files through web DBs and DL appropriate key files, then
search for the locked data files with their favorite P2P.
Data file names could map some kind of hash into a space of human words...
1024-word dictionary, and each 10-bit block of the hash could map to a word.

Jammed_elephant_run_chair_apple.data

for example.

[aqlo]

Right, Jason also used some of the OFF idea in his Monolith application, based on consultations with the prior developer "Whiteraven", the details for that kludge are at monolith.sourceforge.net and also venture into the extreme weirdness zone.

Most of these spin-offs seem to fall short of the full idea of multi-use though, the current OFF alpha is reportedly producing genuinely neutral blocks that can be used, in conjunction with the specific keys, to reproduce many different kinds of content depending entirely on the context in which they appear. The keys, which are the real liability, are traded along lines of trust similar to ANts or Mute but without the extreme slowness inherent in transferring actual large volumes of data that way. The blocks themselves are traded freely, as the likelihood that the person you are getting them from is using them for the same thing you are is progressively lower and lower as the age of the insert increases.

This is what Captain Morgan calls a "brightnet", these might be the 4th generation in p2p products if any of them can get past the debating and coding stages.

[AussieMatt]

We need a obscure p2p ideas forum LOL
Or someone that will actually impliment a few of these things into one app.
Jason is a copyright philosopher
Hes either going to end up in court or be hailed as the next creative commons guru LOL.

[notbob]

If 60 million people think sharing files over p2p is fair use, and legal, then it is legal. There is a fundamental flaw in copyright. The copyright holder can restrict access. Copyright worked fine before electronic media. The net being the worlds largest and easiest copying machine, restricting access to material is a dumb idea.

That is one of the reasons p2p is popular and needed. We all know of material we purchased that was pure garbage. We all know of information on the web that was free and much better than any commerical product. Will the rights of people to share information win or will the greedy fascists create the rules?

P2p will be around for a long time, and it is not going to go away or become mute-ed.

60 million people thought john kerry should be president

john kerry is not president

the rights of people are irrelevant when the people in power are billionaires and huge corporations, making donations and buying legislation--to think that the opinions of "the people" matter is so unbelievably naieve, it is almost childlike in its ignorance of reality


if 60 million people believe something, that does not validate it. it simply means that 60 million people share the same validation for a quasi-illegal (perhaps completely illegal, almost assuredly it will be soon) activity.

p2p is not some high idealistic vision of democracy, it's a bunch of people who want free shit--make it scary enough and the sheep will go hide in the hills. the hills might be "anonymity" or secrecy, neither implies democracy or freedom, since people who want to stand up for freedom do it openly--cowards hide behind anonymity.

i'm a coward--i'll gladly admit it, but i like free shit, and i'm going to get it

[Afn]

60 million people thought....
the rights of people are irrelevant when the people in power are billionaires and huge corporations, making donations and buying legislation--to think that the opinions of "the people" matter is so unbelievably naieve, it is almost childlike in its ignorance of reality


if 60 million people believe something, that does not validate it. it simply means that 60 million people share the same validation for a quasi-illegal (perhaps completely illegal, almost assuredly it will be soon) activity.

p2p is not some high idealistic vision of democracy, it's a bunch of people who want free shit--make it scary enough and the sheep will go hide in the hills. the hills might be "anonymity" or secrecy, neither implies democracy or freedom, since people who want to stand up for freedom do it openly--cowards hide behind anonymity.

i'm a coward--i'll gladly admit it, but i like free shit, and i'm going to get it60 million is about 1/4th of the us population. If that number increases to 50% of the population then any law that is passed will be viewed as opressive and unpopular. The more people agree that filesharing in its current form is fair use and legal, it is.

The corporations and entertainment industry is whining about people sharing information over the internet. Market share is going down. Some mega-corporation ceo will make 1 million less this quarter.

So what? What happens when information has no value? Are they still going to fix the system so they have a monopoly on entertainment? Enough! let the dinosaurs die in the california tar pits.

P2P is more than just getting free shit. What happens when you network all the free shit together? You get one hell of a dog pile. (joke) Old technology prevented mass amounts of information to be electronically sent around the world. Our brain interface (for most people eyes and ears) can only view and understand one item of information at a time.

Corporations rule the world, and in a few nations they had a very good concept called self government...we the people... The problem is that as of 2004, "we the people" is only valid for some of the citizens of our land and only a select few, while "we the corporations" serve only those with products who can pay the price set by the corporation that owns the ideas and marketshare.

Historically corrupt systems fail. When and how is only known after the event takes place. P2p networking will improve the lives of millions of people around the globe and it has enough of a foothold it will never end.

Marching onward to infinity...

[Hornet]

60 million people thought john kerry should be president

john kerry is not president

the rights of people are irrelevant when the people in power are billionaires and huge corporations, making donations and buying legislation--to think that the opinions of "the people" matter is so unbelievably naieve, it is almost childlike in its ignorance of reality


if 60 million people believe something, that does not validate it. it simply means that 60 million people share the same validation for a quasi-illegal (perhaps completely illegal, almost assuredly it will be soon) activity.

p2p is not some high idealistic vision of democracy, it's a bunch of people who want free shit--make it scary enough and the sheep will go hide in the hills. the hills might be "anonymity" or secrecy, neither implies democracy or freedom, since people who want to stand up for freedom do it openly--cowards hide behind anonymity.

i'm a coward--i'll gladly admit it, but i like free shit, and i'm going to get it

Could you be a bit more cynical notbob....as we are all getting bored here watching you do the RIAA's job for them.


Hornet
http://forum.jeti.fw.nu/viewtopic.php?t=23

[Stownplayer]

Could you be a bit more cynical notbob....as we are all getting bored here watching you do the RIAA's job for them.


Hornet
http://forum.jeti.fw.nu/viewtopic.php?t=23


what the hell are you talking about?

[aqlo]

AFN I hear you, but I don't know how that list of numbers thing would fly. Any file is already basically a list of numbers and yet people are getting the crap sued out of them. In your proposal the results would be an encoding of that file and no other file, same as any other kind of encoding or encryption already in use. Unless I'm missing something?

In the heat of the moment let's not forget the people who make it all happen for us. Everyone give notbob a big hand for helping so many new users work up the initiative to make that critical first post!

*some over and over again

[Afn]

AFN I hear you, but I don't know how that list of numbers thing would fly. Any file is already basically a list of numbers and yet people are getting the crap sued out of them. In your proposal the results would be an encoding of that file and no other file, same as any other kind of encoding or encryption already in use. Unless I'm missing something?

In the heat of the moment let's not forget the people who make it all happen for us. Everyone give notbob a big hand for helping so many new users work up the initiative to make that critical first post!

*some over and over again1. Mathamatically compute all possible values in 1kb, and put into a database (do this the first time program is run)
2. create a text file
3. read the file and chunk in 1kb increments, for each chunk look up the value in db
4. Write in text file the integer value in database for that chunk, next chunk...
5. repeat to eof

The file is not sent over the internet, so no copy was made. We send a text file, a series of numbers that point to 1kb strings in a database.

That is the basic idea. You could add encryption layer and separate strings from filenames. The point is, if your computer can not read the files, your computer is useless.

[Hornet]

AFN I hear you, but I don't know how that list of numbers thing would fly. Any file is already basically a list of numbers and yet people are getting the crap sued out of them. In your proposal the results would be an encoding of that file and no other file, same as any other kind of encoding or encryption already in use. Unless I'm missing something?

In the heat of the moment let's not forget the people who make it all happen for us. Everyone give notbob a big hand for helping so many new users work up the initiative to make that critical first post!

*some over and over again
Very funny, you and notbob are killing zeropaid (or should I call it the notbob and aqlo club)single handed.

Nice post, what about ANts?

What about anonymous p2p?

You and he have flamed every post about the subject of this forum.

If you people are not working for the RIAA (doing social engeneering to stop the developement of new types of p2p) then you are doing a good job pretending that you are.

Examples:
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=284453#post284453
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=283439#post283439
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=282881#post282881

I won't even bother with notbob, as every post is the same cynical negative rubbish that does not help new users and drives established users to other forums.

If don't have something to say about ANts then don't post here.

If you have something negative to say then post here:
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=24553

Hornet
http://forum.jeti.fw.nu/viewtopic.php?t=23

[aqlo]

Yeah I'm pretty proud of those posts, with the exception of about 4 words in the first one that someone smart has helped me to view in a different light.

I'm assuming that you, on the other hand, are in favor of grwen promoting censorship, children spamming ipods, and compulsive liars trying to steal specific items in public as an attack on this forum. I'd love to review some of your posts except that you haven't bothered to make any with content yet under this name. You are just flaming, flaming is bannable, the imposting you are doing is similarly bannable, and with this sort of approach you are never going to get the post count to be anything more than a whiney example of why ANts isn't going anywhere as of yet.

Why do these kludges and pieces-of-philosophy Matt and I have been comparing out with the 3rd generation stuff already have more content available than your product? Why are you so short on good things to say about ANts that are true that you have to resort to name-calling and attacks on the senior members to get your threads viewed at all? Why do you think you are in a position to dictate the terms of the discussion in a thread where the creator had to hijack a story about Gaim just to find any mention of ANts at all?

If there is someone out there who can make me smarter I am all ears; you don't have the brain capacity.

[AussieMatt]

I have to agree with aqlo, he has contributed to this thread in a positive way actully thinking about Ants and where it may fit in .Flame threads become tiresome I personaly am not going to bother to respond to flamers that are continualy invading the Ants Forum with the same old tired rhetoric and trolling any topic related to Ants or anonymous p2p. This is also breaking the forum rules .

I dont see them over at Slyck at the moment commenting on the latest story by Slyck Tom about the Winny trial becuse they know that thier trolling is'nt welcome on the Slyck foums .By the way the Jappanese police couldnt crack the Winny protocol and find a IP becuse Winny uses virtual IP's also , so they had to try useing the Bulliten board .Ants has a simmilar vunerability ,its built in IRC client.

I did say in a previous post in this thread we need constructive critisim of Ants and annonymous p2p im general and I think aqlo has provided some of that.Hornet please give him the same respect he has given most of us Ants users and provide him with a valid argument instead of flaming .You notice aqlo has a slight dig at notbob , a known agitator on Zeropiad.

[notbob]

I dont see them over at Slyck at the moment commenting on the latest story by Slyck Tom about the Winny trial becuse they know that thier trolling is'nt welcome on the Slyck foums .By the way the Jappanese police couldnt crack the Winny protocol and find a IP becuse Winny uses virtual IP's also , so they had to try useing the Bulliten board .Ants has a simmilar vunerability ,its built in IRC client.




if a bunch of morons were telling me winny was the answer to all the world's problems, i would call them to the floor too, just like i do with every bunch of morons that tells me they have the ultimate protocol, and now file sharers will be safe forever and ever

but there is no "spam the earth" campaign for winny, so why would i bother?

hornet is probably just ezzye , not that i give a shit what he says either way

[AussieMatt]

Yeah becuse Winny is Japanese and Zeropaid doesnt have Jappanese text encoding if you google for Winny you will see hundreds of Jappanese websites dedicated to it .
Its good to have the Ants Forum resident troll respond again we missed you ...bob.

[notbob]

Yeah becuse Winny is Japanese and Zeropaid doesnt have Jappanese text encoding if you google for Winny you will see hundreds of Jappanese websites dedicated to it .
Its good to have the Ants Forum resident troll respond again we missed you ...bob.

did you know that japanese people can type sentences in english? text encoding is not an issue, it's just that winny users make their own forums and stay there instead of spamming everyone else's

that is possible for them, of course, because they actually have users

[AussieMatt]

Most Jappanese users of Winny block IP's from the US also becuse It has been proven that US users tend to leach off the Network .But if your cluster allows US IPs you still have acess to the whole network
.Yeah I know that Jappanese can type english and they speak it well too ,I lived in Japan for a year .Ok Try Google For Winny English and see the amount of sites and links dedicated to Winny .___bob your the one keeping Ants in the spotlight not the Ants users by responding to our threads theres more spaming ,flaming and trolling from the Anti Ants faction than there ever was from the Pro ANts faction .

[notbob]

___bob your the one keeping Ants in the spotlight not the Ants users by responding to our threads theres more spaming ,flaming and trolling from the Anti Ants faction than there ever was from the Pro ANts faction .

how a forum works

1)you post something
2)someone agrees or disagrees, responds
3)you respond to the response, add new points
4)repeat

if what i do is flaming and or trolling, i'd have been banned long ago, right? since this is the way i've posted since day 1 (fig 1, post #1)

http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=7550&postcount=63

some people don't like their beliefs challenged--i don't have any beliefs, so who better to question everyone else's?

[AussieMatt]

Notbob you actually contribute many valid points in the the debate about AntsP2P and anonymous p2p .Its the other people that come in and say Annonymous p2p sucks and does'nt work that are the problem without any real inteligent argument at all .Thanks for again for contributing .

[aqlo]

Yeah Matt, I really dig notBob, he's the ginchiest !!!

blah blah blah all possible values in 1kb, and put into a database blah blah blah Write in text file the integer value in database for that chunk, next chunk blah blah zzzzzzzzzz

Ok Afn, guess I did understand what you were saying then. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, I really like some of your philosophical bullshit; but you are sadly lacking in even the most basic understanding of not only the litigation process but also simple arithmetic.

To start with, in binary, the simplest form of computer notation, the number of possible combinations of an array is equal to the maximum value of the array. And don't knock binary, every other form of notation is worse than this. So in a single byte for example, the total number of possible combinations is 2 to the 8th power, or 256, with the actual combinations running from 0 to 255. Are you with me so far?

Good, because the total number of possible combinations for a kilobyte is 2 to 8,192nd power. This is a 1 followed by 2,466 more digits. For comparison, a billion is only a 1 followed by 9 more digits. So this number of possibilities is significantly more than the number of potential individual subatomic particles altogether inclusively in every single discrete universe implied by even the most far-out physics theories. I won't even go on about the k of storage necessary for each individual potential kilobyte, due the field size also being controlled by the maximum potential value, it isn't worthwhile.

But let's just assume for a moment that after more time than can possibly exist, long after every potential serial universe has vanished into the outer darkness and reality has moved on to other more impressive things than multiverses of any kind, your program could finish calculating and your database could exist. At that point, after all that effort, you go into court. The prosecutor shows that your text file has a direct correspondence to the copyrighted work in question, by extracting the work using your software; and all you have to say for yourself is "It's not possible to copyright a list of numbers! waaaa waaaaaaa!" You are SO busted.

On the bright side, at least the work in question will only be something that you actually liked and wanted to share, not some random babyfucking movie you were proxying for someone else who is hiding behind ANts or Freenet laughing at you for being a sucker.

[Psilaxs]

Very funny, you and notbob are killing zeropaid (or should I call it the notbob and aqlo club)single handed.

Nice post, what about ANts?

What about anonymous p2p?

You and he have flamed every post about the subject of this forum.

If you people are not working for the RIAA (doing social engeneering to stop the developement of new types of p2p) then you are doing a good job pretending that you are.

Examples:
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=284453#post284453
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=283439#post283439
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=282881#post282881

I won't even bother with notbob, as every post is the same cynical negative rubbish that does not help new users and drives established users to other forums.

If don't have something to say about ANts then don't post here.

If you have something negative to say then post here:
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=24553

Hornet
http://forum.jeti.fw.nu/viewtopic.php?t=23

What you fail to grasp (severely) is that this is a public forum (within the constraints of private ownership) Anytime you make a post, all are free to comment on the subject which is exactly what Notbob is doing. And it isn't cynical negative rubbish. It is intelligent commentary and observations backed by logic and very good reasoning.

If not for people like Notbob being critical of shortcomings and ideas things would never improve. You cannot always look at things from a positive objective viewpoint. Sometimes you need to take a step and look at it from the angle of other people. Though I do envy your ability to always look at things through those rose colored glasses.

[The Hunter]

We try to censor as little as possible here, and believe it or not, actually encourage some of this type of discussion/feedback. Its only when it has truly crossed the line between feedback to openly flaming/trolling that something is done. What this opening up of things has done is many things, not the least of which is making for a lively discussion, with honest feedback.

[riderx]

very interesting topic
bump bumpity bump bump bump

[Nikidajen]

What's the opposite of fanboy?
I haven't seen a valid argument against ap2p. Just a bunch of opinions. The only facts that can be gleened from this unproductive post is that ants is under constant development, that it is slow and lacks content.
In a world of coporate governments, people getting sued, why wouldn't you be interested in anonymous p2p?
Oh, don't get upset if I don't respond to you; personal insults and irrelevant counter questions are childish and are not debate. I won't waste my time with these. I'm simply interested in the topic at hand, facts for and against ants.

[notbob]

What's the opposite of fanboy?
I haven't seen a valid argument against ap2p. Just a bunch of opinions. The only facts that can be gleened from this unproductive post is that ants is under constant development, that it is slow and lacks content.
In a world of coporate governments, people getting sued, why wouldn't you be interested in anonymous p2p?
Oh, don't get upset if I don't respond to you; personal insults and irrelevant counter questions are childish and are not debate. I won't waste my time with these. I'm simply interested in the topic at hand, facts for and against ants.

you answered your own question

it's slow, lacks content, setup is overcomplicated, and it isn't really anonymous

[Abyss00]

...and it isn't really anonymous
notbob, lay off the weird definitions of anonymous.

Ants is one of the most anonymous programs available today, only Freenet and Entropy are more anonymous.

[Unsueable Davey Brown]

Here's the problem I have with the Ants marketing via P2P forums campaign.

First of all you can split it into 3 sections:

The Salesman - Seems reasonable, seems knowledgeable, but when I watch what he actually does, he reminds me of this guy who was trying to sell me a car one time. The brakes squeaked. The guy explained to me that this was perfectly understandable, then launched into an explanation that quickly veered away from the subject of squeaky brakes, and into a highly technical dissertation on something, I never did figure out exactly what. By the time he was finished though, squeaky brakes were out of my brain, and I was thinking about the weather.

The Spammer - Self explanatory.

The Flamer - Again Self explanatory.

These 3 sections together create the ES5 model.

This automatically makes me suspicious. I know they're up to something, I just don't know what.

Why would someone purposely use a marketing model they know is going to make them unpopular.

My personal favourite conspiracy theory of the moment is Industry plot. It's all about misdirection from safer networks which the industry fears, and discrediting the sincere proponents of those practices, by creating a pack of disreputable clowns, and presenting them as examples of what safer (and no I'm not saying anonymous. It doesn't exist) networking is all about.

Perhaps this why they create spam threads like this one. They want to connect their name with projects that might cause industry some bother.

[Abyss00]

so far nothing is anonymous, therefore, why bother with slow programs with no content when other non anonymous programs can actually get you what you want?
We have been over this many times before just how dense can one person be anyway?

Nothing is completely, entirely, 100%, anonymous and safer. But somethings are sure a hell of a lot safer then others.

For example, just because seat belts can not completely, entirely, 100%, safety during a car wreck doesn't mean that there is no point in bothering with then, they are still a whole lot safer then nothing at all. Condoms, etc. etc. Nothing in this world is 100%, but A can be better, safer, faster, or more anonymous then B and if it is some people will want to use B because of that.

Some things are just superior then other things and just because they not 100% does not negate the fact that they are still superior.

Some things have a higher level of anonymity then other things do. No matter how you fail to grasp the concept it does not change the fact that some people value anonymity and will seek out ways of maintaining their anonymity be it using cash instead of credit cards, etc. etc. or using p2p programs that have been shown to have a higher level of anonymity then your standard program that just hands your IP over to the RIAA with a complete list of everthing your are sharing.

If you want speed you use the program with the most speed just because it is not unlimited (i.e. 100%) does not mean that it is not the fastest one out there. And if a new faster program comes along then that is what you will use.

If you want anonymity then you use the one with the most anonymous protocal out there just because it is not 100% does not mean that it is not the most anonymous one out there. And if a new more anonymous program comes along then that is what you will use.

If you value the program with the superior speed and content then be all means use it.

Why do you have such a problem with people that value the program with the superior safety and anonymity? Just because someone values something different then you does not automatically make then wrong.



Here's the problem I have with the Ants marketing via P2P forums campaign.
Very true, marketing, spamming advertising, etc. in P2P forums is very annoying.

But please explain to me what you find annoying about some Ants user making a post about Ants in the Ants forum section of a P2P forum?
See up at the top: Zeropaid Forums > Peer-2-Peer > ANts