Ants Forum open

[AussieMatt]

Here we can Disscuss ,bitch and moan about Ants without interfering with other the other topics and threads .

Thier has been alot of disscussion on various p2p forums regarding Ants and some people are against it becuse they are still burnt by Earthstation 5 and its annominity claims so be carefull when posting on forums if you are a supporter of proxy chains,crytography and ant based routing protocol ,and be informative if you can when trying to discuss ANts .

Lets make this forum have Inteligent well thought out dicussion without flaming and my p2p is better than yours threads

Some claim its not anonymous but they forget annonymous dos'nt mean invisable.

Ants may not be what you are used to in p2p its heavilly in development and its beta software it may not always work with the current version.

Grwen the developer dosnt care much for GUI improvments at this stage so you wont get a new GUI till you help develop it or he gets everything he wants done protocol wise and fixes up the bugs then you might get your Pretty GUI in Ants

If you find bugs ,you work out a exploit or want to know somthing post it @sourcefoge or here .

Grwens Ants Homepage
http://www.myjavaserver.com.nyud.net:8090/~gwren/home.jsp?page=custom&xmlName=ants

Ants Sourceforge Page
http://sourceforge.net/projects/antsp2p/


Ants Project description

Abstract

The main problems of the 2-nd generation p2p nets (as well as the 1-st one) are two: the complete lack of privacy and data protection and the lack of structured queries. Doing queries over the net we can see who's connected and what he's sharing. This is not acceptable if we care about our privacy... furthermore we usually have many problems in finding what we are looking for: queries support in common p2p system is usually not-stuctured and exact text-matching based, so we cannot exploit SQL-like features (join and so on...) over the net data-set. This project tries to resolve both the problems.

The privacy problem

It faces the privacy one breaking the ebsence of p2p... I mean a connection is not anymore point 2 point in the strict sense... the peers are virtual peers over a virtual net, so when we are requiring a resource over the net, our request is routed through many points utill it reach our peer. The peers are not anymore identified by ip... the have a unique ID produced hashing infos from their time and their location (this yields a unique hash). So a client now knows only the ips of its neighbours (the other peers directly connected to it), but it doesn't know their ID, as only the same node knows its ID. So what about routing, how can a node route a message if it doesn't know where the destination is? Simple... a node will know which are the "best" direction to route a message to, but it will not know where precisely another node is. The routing protocol has been developed over studies on ants behaviour... ants do not know the precise location of their hive, they simply follow a track... the same happends in this system. So the more messages follow a track the more that track will be "strong", if a track produces many failures it'll fade out and it won't be followed anymore. This way we can achieve privacy over our identity, but what about the informations sent? They have to route through many peers so how can we protect 'em? The protection is realized at 2 levels... low level (against man-in-the-middle extern to our net) by crypting communication between each couple of directly linked points of the net, high level (against internal threats) crypting the communication between the two end points. At both level the security is granted using a DH-KA and DES or AES (negotiated at the beginning).

The queries problem

Another solution has been found for the query problem. Each query is distributed (in a non deterministic and sequential way) over a part of the net. It is processed by each node it passes and at last it is returned to the source following the shortest path. Each node can process operations more complex than the simple text-matching: we can support pseudo high level SQL-queries over the data-set reppresented by our partial explored net.

Efficiency issues

We talked about a wide spread net that comprises very etherogeneous kind of nodes (lan connection as well as 56k) how can we support efficiency? The routing protocol is studied to find the best path to route a message... but if the path is not present we cannot find it. So we have to create a well structured net with a sufficient number of "routing point" (I mean pseudo server point with high speed connection and high connectivity (about 30 peers connected). The peers don't need to know the address of these points... we can structure the service creating few (hidden) routing points and many access points. At the startup one can choose if becoming an access point or a simple peer, every group of people can also create their own net with routing points and simple peers (a very scalable system). Computer simulation over the routing protocol have shown its efficiency over both the cases: with or without many routing points... in practice the virtual net is a sort of neural network that learns during its life and distributes the traffic in the best way.

About the IRC based connection system

Is there any threat due to the IRC based connection system? Is it dangerous that my IP appears on IRC? NO! Because ANts Net and IRC net are two distinct nets and the first has nothing to do with the sencond. I mean, when you log on IRC starting your ants client you usually join a chat room. In the chatroom you'll find other peers, each peers in the channel runs a particular server at port 4568, this is called the address server. The address server is a sort of crawler that roams around the ANts net collecting the IPs of every node that has free slots for new peers that want to access the ANts net. So each node of the ANts net will manage a list of these IPs with free slots. Through IRC (by a simple message) you can obtain the address of a peer running the server and already connected to the net. Once you have the address of the address server you can query that peer for IPs you can connect to. Once you are connected to the ANts net you'll crawl the net too for addresses with free slot (I mean your address server), and other peers will crawl through your node. This cause no threat because giving back your address to a query does not give any info to other peers about your location or about the ID you are using. Also if you are the only peer connected to another, the other cannot know if you are the only peer connected or if other peers without free slots are connected to you (same as for normal queries... noone knows who really answers queries).


MUTE: a similar system. Mute implements the same idea as Ants p2p using different routing protocols and discovery systems. Also the security policy is different as no endpoint secured connections are used (it uses only point to point secured connections). Main problems of MUTE are the lack of multiple downloads and of the resume system. Sometimes It can also result too slow even if it is used with a broadband connection (probably due to wrong routing policies...).

[Watchmen]

Here we can Disscuss ,bitch and moan about Ants without interfering with other the other topics and threads .

Thier has been alot of disscussion on various p2p forums regarding Ants and some people are against it becuse they are still burnt by Earthstation 5 and its annominity claims so be carefull when posting on forums if you are a supporter of proxy chains,crytography and ant based routing protocol ,and be informative if you can when trying to discuss ANts .

Lets make this forum have Inteligent well thought out dicussion without flaming and my p2p is better than yours threads

Some claim its not anonymous but they forget annonymous dos'nt mean invisable.

Ants may not be what you are used to in p2p its heavilly in development and its beta software it may not always work with the current version.

Grwen the developer dosnt care much for GUI improvments at this stage so you wont get a new GUI till you help develop it or he gets everything he wants done protocol wise and fixes up the bugs then you might get your Pretty GUI in Ants

If you find bugs ,you work out a exploit or want to know somthing post it @sourcefoge or here .

Grwens Ants Homepage
http://www.myjavaserver.com.nyud.net:8090/~gwren/home.jsp?page=custom&xmlName=ants

Ants Sourceforge Page
http://sourceforge.net/projects/antsp2p/


Ants Project description

Abstract

The main problems of the 2-nd generation p2p nets (as well as the 1-st one) are two: the complete lack of privacy and data protection and the lack of structured queries. Doing queries over the net we can see who's connected and what he's sharing. This is not acceptable if we care about our privacy... furthermore we usually have many problems in finding what we are looking for: queries support in common p2p system is usually not-stuctured and exact text-matching based, so we cannot exploit SQL-like features (join and so on...) over the net data-set. This project tries to resolve both the problems.

The privacy problem

It faces the privacy one breaking the ebsence of p2p... I mean a connection is not anymore point 2 point in the strict sense... the peers are virtual peers over a virtual net, so when we are requiring a resource over the net, our request is routed through many points utill it reach our peer. The peers are not anymore identified by ip... the have a unique ID produced hashing infos from their time and their location (this yields a unique hash). So a client now knows only the ips of its neighbours (the other peers directly connected to it), but it doesn't know their ID, as only the same node knows its ID. So what about routing, how can a node route a message if it doesn't know where the destination is? Simple... a node will know which are the "best" direction to route a message to, but it will not know where precisely another node is. The routing protocol has been developed over studies on ants behaviour... ants do not know the precise location of their hive, they simply follow a track... the same happends in this system. So the more messages follow a track the more that track will be "strong", if a track produces many failures it'll fade out and it won't be followed anymore. This way we can achieve privacy over our identity, but what about the informations sent? They have to route through many peers so how can we protect 'em? The protection is realized at 2 levels... low level (against man-in-the-middle extern to our net) by crypting communication between each couple of directly linked points of the net, high level (against internal threats) crypting the communication between the two end points. At both level the security is granted using a DH-KA and DES or AES (negotiated at the beginning).

The queries problem

Another solution has been found for the query problem. Each query is distributed (in a non deterministic and sequential way) over a part of the net. It is processed by each node it passes and at last it is returned to the source following the shortest path. Each node can process operations more complex than the simple text-matching: we can support pseudo high level SQL-queries over the data-set reppresented by our partial explored net.

Efficiency issues

We talked about a wide spread net that comprises very etherogeneous kind of nodes (lan connection as well as 56k) how can we support efficiency? The routing protocol is studied to find the best path to route a message... but if the path is not present we cannot find it. So we have to create a well structured net with a sufficient number of "routing point" (I mean pseudo server point with high speed connection and high connectivity (about 30 peers connected). The peers don't need to know the address of these points... we can structure the service creating few (hidden) routing points and many access points. At the startup one can choose if becoming an access point or a simple peer, every group of people can also create their own net with routing points and simple peers (a very scalable system). Computer simulation over the routing protocol have shown its efficiency over both the cases: with or without many routing points... in practice the virtual net is a sort of neural network that learns during its life and distributes the traffic in the best way.

About the IRC based connection system

Is there any threat due to the IRC based connection system? Is it dangerous that my IP appears on IRC? NO! Because ANts Net and IRC net are two distinct nets and the first has nothing to do with the sencond. I mean, when you log on IRC starting your ants client you usually join a chat room. In the chatroom you'll find other peers, each peers in the channel runs a particular server at port 4568, this is called the address server. The address server is a sort of crawler that roams around the ANts net collecting the IPs of every node that has free slots for new peers that want to access the ANts net. So each node of the ANts net will manage a list of these IPs with free slots. Through IRC (by a simple message) you can obtain the address of a peer running the server and already connected to the net. Once you have the address of the address server you can query that peer for IPs you can connect to. Once you are connected to the ANts net you'll crawl the net too for addresses with free slot (I mean your address server), and other peers will crawl through your node. This cause no threat because giving back your address to a query does not give any info to other peers about your location or about the ID you are using. Also if you are the only peer connected to another, the other cannot know if you are the only peer connected or if other peers without free slots are connected to you (same as for normal queries... noone knows who really answers queries).


MUTE: a similar system. Mute implements the same idea as Ants p2p using different routing protocols and discovery systems. Also the security policy is different as no endpoint secured connections are used (it uses only point to point secured connections). Main problems of MUTE are the lack of multiple downloads and of the resume system. Sometimes It can also result too slow even if it is used with a broadband connection (probably due to wrong routing policies...).

This is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have ever read..and I'm not normally a nay-sayer either...so I'll try to explain my disdain. Just going by the explanation you gave for how it finds other servers to connect to by logging you into an irc channel sounds like virus behaviour. I'm not saying the program is a virus but that logging you into an irc server creeps me out based upon previous knowledge of behaviour patterns for certain trojans and viruses that I've read about...irc has many exploits on it that can easily take advantage of unsavvy users.

Just going on your description if I wanted to stop this application I'd target the network or channel that it connects to much the same as I'd do if I wanted to knock out a bittorrent site I'd take down its tracker..this how you wage war you cut off communications..so this immediately strikes me as a weakness.

Kazaa for all of its jeers seems to have the best initial connection method by including a list of other peers to connect to inside its installer and storing these encrypted as dword values in the registry and refreshing this stored list immediately upon connection to the first peer you connect to on the network.

If I wanted to 'sue' users I'd simply use the client connect to the irc network and get a list of servers to start checking...i'd also run a packet sniffer to see how it sends queries to the various nodes and then I'd emulate the string it sends when querying a node making the query an overly long string to create a buffer overflow and hopefully either crash server node or get some type of unexpected behaviour from it..dare I hope for it to spawn a shell and maybe give me some directory traversal?

As for legality you are not a lawyer so whatever advice you offer others in regards to plausible deniability is irrelevant and only an opinion not fact.

It seems using a file sharing application should be an illegal offense. This is the direction that the popular opinion among policy makers is taken recently no doubt influenced by megabuck corporations such as the riaa and mpaa to pass laws which would ultimately outlaw p2p applications.

One of the largest problems with your 'defense' is that you say the person who is proxying data doesn't know the content of the data he is relaying. You have stated that this is the defense for ISP's.

Yes for ISP's but not individuals...let me ask you this: how can ISP's offer newsgroups servicing such items and Windows 2000 Profession iso's and Office XP iso's without being sued?

That question still hasn't been satisfactorily answered for me except I remember SlyckTom mentioning once that it was tolerated because of the way the data was stored on their servers as plain text documents..useless in and of themselves without being decoded by a newsreader into useable form.

However If I look at the contents of a few binary groups on my isp with a newsreader and I see blatently 'Windows XP Profession.iso' or 'Microsoft Office 2000.iso' displayed in newsgroup client how can there be any doubt as to the content of what is being stored on the server..all one would have to do is download said warez to verify and validate its existence on said server..however it isn't the isp's that are being sued it is the individual's responsible for uploading the content to the newsservers who are prosecuted when caught which is typically why anyone uploading content of a copyrighted nature to a newserver typically uses a third party paid news service and a proxy to upload the content as opposed to using their own isp to upload the content directly.

The problem with your argument about 'not knowing' the content of what is being passed along by you through the use of your client and bandwidth is that it doesn't matter. A dumb jury won't understand concepts such as proxying or peercaching...presumably an agent of the riaa/mpaa/bsa won't know or care either..if they download copyrighted or illegal content from the ants network they will look to whatever ip was the last one their client connected to in order to receive the data.

The fact of the matter is your assumed guilty automatically by the very use of a p2p client..it won't matter if you knew what you were relaying or not...its called being an accessory to a crime or conspiracy to commit crime. In this case copyright infringement or worse child pornography depending upon who uses this network and how its used.

The fact you cannot control the content you pass onto others means you could inadvertently being sharing child pornography without your knowledge and as most good cops will tell you, 'Ignorance of the law' is no excuse.

[AussieMatt]

You have to rember that IRC is just one of Ants bootstraping methods you can also use trusted peers ,the onboard peer cache once connected or with the JetiAnts version that uses your Jabber Buddy IPs for bootstraping .

IRC acts the same as a webcache or superpeer IP cache and is more dynamic and acts more like a wireless network in ad-hock mode that Ants tries to emulate.Webcaches and superpeers have also been targeted with DOS attacks and takedown notices Also there are many IRC servers and channels you would have to target everyone on every IRC Server and Channel to see if someone was running a ants node .You dont even have to connect to IRC if you leave the channel field blank it wont connect :P.
.
Ants clusters can also operate independantly of each other they dont interconnect unless they bridge by way of connecting to another cluster by way of one of the above bootstraping methods.Once PGP keys (Using Bouncycastle PGP) are implimented into Ants you will be able to set up clusters that only have each others PGP keys .

#ants-peers on azzura is only a testing point you can change the channel and server you want to connect to in the settings.

The specific attack you mention is the classic man in the middle attack and has been adressed by Grwen and Ill quote his post on the MUTE Mailing list regarding the chages he made to secure agaist such attacks

"
ANts is now definitely secured against MIM attacks!

A new node identification system is going to be implemented in a short: it will make
computationally impossible a MIM attack. A prototype is already working I only have to sync
all the versions!

Details:
The idea is to use a particular DS (Digital Signature) public key as node ID on the ants
net. The key (node ID) will be changed each time you run ANts and it will be generated in
couple with a private one. You"ll use your private one to sign your messages so that
everyone on the ants net will be able to verify if
a message from the node identified by a particular ID (i.e. public key) is spoofed or
valid.
The method is computationally secure cause it implies no DH exchange or communication
stuffs. You
simply publish your ID (i.e. public Key) on the net through your queries and you"ll be the
ONLY one able to use that ID to spread messages on the net. Spoofed message will be
automatically rejected by other nodes, cause the spoofer will not be able to create a fake
signature (unless he can perform a 1024 bit factorization... :P ) and the nodes will fail in
verifying the signature. Obiously this will work within the current secured environment
creating a far more strong security.

We are definitely DONE!

This can be applied also on MUTE so coder take notes :P I think it"s a great idea."

If you run Ants you will see in the log that data is sent by user ID that is queries ,data and network infmation.Ants is really meant to send data in a network a safe way and is probably more suited to commuity wiresless nets ,WI-FI hotspots and other wireless WAN aplications as an overlay and it has the ability to have Chat ,Streaming data and many other services over its framework .Once the PGP services are Built into Ants this will be more of a clustered community app that can be intergrated into a wi-fi network .File Sharing and Http tunneling are just the first two services offered on Ants .

If you want a legal position here are a few quotes from a Slyck Story about ants written in September Link http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7069

"Fred von Lohmann, the Senior Intellectual Property Attorney for the EFF, highlights the importance of the privacy provided by these networks. “It is important to remember that anonymizing proxy networks have lots of uses unrelated to file-sharing, including for anonymous web browsing, email, and instant messaging,” "

"Fred von Lohmann explained, “The law is simply unclear. No court has ever considered whether you can be held liable for copyright infringement simply for proxying data in a network. EFF strongly believes that the answer should be that, assuming you have no knowledge of what the packets are that you're passing, you should not be liable for the contents of the packets. That is, after all, the rule for ISPs. The same rule should apply for individuals,”"

I agree as well as plasible denaibillity thier is probable cause and once the INDUCE Act comes in it will be a very likely defence in all targeting p2p users trading questionable material the enternment industry considers suspicious, a very sad day indeed .A jury would have to be convinced by your lawyer( who would hopefully be a lawyer from the 'EFF' who is well versed in technology in a landmark case like this doing pro bono work) that the prosecution didnt have the corrct evidence needed to prosecute the case. If you read that thread on zeropaid that you seem to like to quote so much you will see that Ive said that in previous posts .

PS did you really need to quote me when the post is already there .

[SirKilljoy]

I would have loved to add my two cents to an intelligent debate on the merits of ANts, but I find that all the points I would have raised have been comprehensively covered by Watchmen.

Great Job, well done.

[ezzye]

Well done Matt for getting this forum set up.

How can current and future ANts p2p users and testers help?

My suggestion is that I am available to:
-Set-up and administer CVS on sourceforge
-Set-up and administer Stable and unstable versions on sourceforge
-Host and set-up ANts hash content site on ANts and on webserver to encourage users to add more content as users can share more than 1000 mp3s without being sued.

I know ANts development has stalled recently due to GW having personal issues to deal with.

How can we users help?

I personally have downloaded 10 gigabyte of mp3s and movies from ANts (for educational purposes) so I know that it works.

My average download speed when a source is available is 20 K b/s on dsl. Not fast but OK for anonymous MP3s.

Again well done.

When the history of P2P is written I'm sure this will merit a mention.

Thanks Matt and GW for your hard work we do appreciate it even if sometime it seems we don't.

[Malicious Intent]

Details:
The idea is to use a particular DS (Digital Signature) public key as node ID on the ants
net. The key (node ID) will be changed each time you run ANts and it will be generated in
couple with a private one. You"ll use your private one to sign your messages so that
everyone on the ants net will be able to verify if
a message from the node identified by a particular ID (i.e. public key) is spoofed or
valid.
The method is computationally secure cause it implies no DH exchange or communication
stuffs. You
simply publish your ID (i.e. public Key) on the net through your queries and you"ll be the
ONLY one able to use that ID to spread messages on the net. Spoofed message will be
automatically rejected by other nodes, cause the spoofer will not be able to create a fake
signature (unless he can perform a 1024 bit factorization... :P ) and the nodes will fail in
verifying the signature. Obiously this will work within the current secured environment
creating a far more strong security.

I have been sitting in the middle of talks between Graham (specialist I used in my article quoted above) and Gwren.

A MIM attack could still be performed. As long as it is performed at the search stage. This is not much different to when DH exchanges were used.

It would be impossible to catch everyone. Every search would need recording and changing to catch the few transfers which then proceed to use the cancerous node to proxy the file.

The ultimate question is what is the point? Gwren used to say that it is about privacy, but there is no privacy when you are sharing files with 100s of other anonymous users.

It is therefore about legal protection. Something Gwren used to say ANts was not designed for and could not provide. IMO he has now done a U-turn on that - and rightly so. ANts is now about legal protection and not privacy.

However, how many users would know how to see the files being transferred by MUTE? It can't be many. By the time those people have found out what the file is, they would have passed it on anyway. Users can not be expected to constantly monitor their traffic any more than they can be expected to perform a MIM attack.

If, as von Lohmann says, user's best protection is to hide behind the ISP laws, then there is truely no extra legal protection provided by ANts over MUTE.

[AussieMatt]

It gets back to does ants want to be based on a trust model or a annonymous model .If certifercates are issued or a PGP system implimented http://www.bouncycastle.org/index.html
Does Ants end up being a trust model that may be usefull in somthing like the proposed Downhill Battle client http://downhillbattle.org/labs/gaim_filesharing_plugin/

Grwen (Ants Developer) and Jason (MUTE Developer) both have published on thier websites thier opinions on end to end encryption Jason Being against end to and Grwen for end to end (looks like an email to MI's associate Graham) Both articles present good points of view and there may be somthing for all to take into consideration to disscuss and improve the overall development of both Ants and MUTE.

Grwens End to End views
Why End 2 End is useful for an AD-HOC anonymous NET
http://www.myjavaserver.com/~gwren/home.jsp?page=custom&xmlName=e2e

Jasons End to End views
End-to-end encryption (and Person-in-the-middle attacks)
http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/personInTheMiddle.shtml

[Malicious Intent]

It seems like Jason is thinking along the same lines as Graham. They are saying virtually the same thing. It is impossible to have secured endpoints in a system which is designed to hide those endpoints.

Gwren talks about how secure ANts is, but only after the transfer has started safely. No one is debating that, the problem is with attacks performed before that.

I think the Gwren view you posted was the turning point for ANts. He used to say that he is not a lawyer, now he publishs this based on some very weak legal theory. He compares a MUTE proxy node to a node sharing files on edonkey.

The power of encryption goes back to the logic of trying to secure unknown endpoints.

From a legal POV:

Knowledge of the file being transferred: Both require specialist knowledge. ANts more than MUTE. ANts will have a higher failure rate at discovering the file being transferred.

Time to discover what the file is: Both long after the file has been passed on, else the transfer will fail

% time needed to watch the network to ensure no files are copyright: Both 100% of the time the network is connected

It can be proved who the source of the file is: Neither netwoks

And so on.

ANts is very advanced, and I would hate to think that anyone thought otherwise. However, Gwren is onto a loser with endpoint encrytion.

[AussieMatt]

Just delete the flame threads janet and im sure this disscusion can stay on track

On another note I spoke to grewn on IRC and he said he is waiting to get DSL service that was promised to him from his ISP before he can get back into developing .
They sent him a broken DSL modem and giving him the run around .
He said he is working on internationalisation support and a JetiAnts webinstaller while he is waiting to get hooked up .His dial up and telephone bills are getting expensive thats why he is limiting his time on the net and project at the moment but when he gets DSL im sure he will be back giving us releases on a daily basis LOL.

[Raize]

The fact you cannot control the content you pass onto others means you could inadvertently being sharing child pornography without your knowledge and as most good cops will tell you, 'Ignorance of the law' is no excuse.

(Dislaimer: I created an account just to respond to this)

I agree that there is no ignorance defense, but intent is a huge factor in any criminal or civil case. Not intent to share, mind you, but intent to share something like child porn. It's the same reason why a kid that puts a piece of candy in his mom's purse as she shops isn't held accountable for stealing. It's because the act that he was doing, while it was actually stealing, was not his intent. In fact, he just wanted candy.

By sharing files on a network like this, one can just claim incompetence, saying they didn't know that they were sharing child porn by putting their mp3's online. Since the RIAA has a history of suing people that have no clue, it's interesting that everyone is settling outside of court since incompetence is a staple of P2P sharing.

[tackdaddy]

look i have nothing against the ANTS program.i will even try it once the network gets a little bigger but what i want to know why is there so many fucking threads talking about this.too much fucking spamming about a program that is'nt even proven to work like it claims.

[SirKilljoy]

By sharing files on a network like this, one can just claim incompetence, saying they didn't know that they were sharing child porn by putting their mp3's online. Since the RIAA has a history of suing people that have no clue, it's interesting that everyone is settling outside of court since incompetence is a staple of P2P sharing.

Is it just me, my damn country or the mass media/advertisements in the USA, but I'm not 'that worried' about being sued for mp3 copyright infringement, Where as spreading child pornography is a different matter. One is a civil matter/civil liberties matter, the other a heinous crime where perpetrators have and are being sent to jail.

And of course intent is always the point in all legal cases; it’s the difference between mass murder and a terrible accident on a highway. (Except for negligence for any pedantics out there)

[ezzye]

Is it just me, my damn country or the mass media/advertisements in the USA, but I'm not 'that worried' about being sued for mp3 copyright infringement, Where as spreading child pornography is a different matter. One is a civil matter/civil liberties matter, the other a heinous crime where perpetrators have and are being sent to jail.

And of course intent is always the point in all legal case; it’s the difference between mass murder and a terrible accident on a highway. (Except for negligence for any pedantics out there)



Come on let's get back on topic.

ANts is about protecting user privacy so that users can share music, books and movies privately (RIAA and MPAA cannot see source of files). It is NOT about child ponography and Terrorism etc. The people who spread those rumours in the media are usually affiliated to RIAA / MPAA who hate file sharing (of any type) as its losing them some of their MEGA-PROFITS. (BTW I'm an not saying that SirKillJoy is in anyway affiliated with the RIAA or MPAA.)

If anyone logs on to the ANts network they will see, in terms of content, loads of MP3s, books(pdf) and movies from around the world as users are not afraid to share their whole media collection. (Although probably not the one they are after as the network is tiny.)

Sure there is some porn but guess what there is the SAME porn on the internet.

Privacy is a right not a privalege. By asking for that right you are not seeking to break the law.

[SirKilljoy]

ANts is about protecting user privacy so that users can share music, books and movies privately (RIAA and MPAA cannot see source of files). It is NOT about child ponography and Terrorism etc


And pray tell how do you stop it being used to share child pornography. If I download the source will I see advanced image processing code that can recognize naked children?


I don't dispute your wish, the developer or anyone I've ever read in any forum, their wish to only break civil and not criminal law (As defined within my own country), but to suggest that a truly anonymous network would only have happy consequences is in my view your naivety of the real world. But of course I can relax in the complete knowledge that no such network exists now or in the future.



Sure there is some porn but guess what there is the SAME porn on the internet.

On a personal level I believe there to be a world of difference between child pornography and porn. Luckily most civilized people (outside Japan) seem to agree with me.



Privacy is a right not a privalege. By asking for that right you are not seeking to break the law.

Depends where you live; in certain western countries all your emails have to be vetted and logged, in others you break the law if you do. Some countries limit the number of bits you can use for encryption, others say not. Even some call it a crime to try and stop people copying copyrighted material. As for privacy, I have no right to it and there is no law protecting it for me where I live. Occasionally the lawmakers/civil liberty groups mention it, but the Press are hardly likely to agree.
For my personal view if you want the right to privacy to be able to copy MP3 files, I'm happy. If you wish the right so you can copy Child Pornography, I'm Not. It's all Intent.

[AussieMatt]

Sir Killjoy Just log on to adult chat rooms on yahoo you will find your peodophiles there first .

The RIAA/MPAA and the Department of Justice media releases state that they are trying to protect childeren from peodophiles by clamping down on p2p .They are trying to socialy engineer public opinion so it benefits them.

Senator Orin Hatch the main sponser of the INDUCE Act recives alot of funding from the MPAA and RIAA and media companies so as usual in the US big bussiness gets to write the legislation without consulation .Just like the FDA gets the Drug companies to write the US Persrciption Drug policy .

[SirKilljoy]

The RIAA/MPAA and the Department of Justice media releases state that they are trying to protect childeren from peodophiles by clamping down on p2p .They are trying to socialy engineer public opinion so it benefits them.


And wouldn't it be better for the P2P community to respond with claims that Child Pornography can't flourish using P2P, instead of making fake claims of Anonymity and Privacy.

[Malicious Intent]

I think the peadophile question is an important one. Definately something to think about. I believe that technology should not be hampered because of its potential uses, but ANts is pushes up against some tough moral questions by creating software which could help peadophiles - whether that is the intention or not.

Go onto any network and type in "qwerty", "r@ygold" or even "12". It is a problem and can only be made worse by the development of anonymising networks. It isn't just the invention of Orrin Hatch.

I say the development should continue, but it isn't cut and dry.

[AussieMatt]

Yahoo Messenger is also another technology that helps peodophiles .The technology question is the same argument that can be used for the current generation of p2p that is p2p can be used for distributing legal files like LINDOWS ,Most Linux Distributions, Game Demos and can be used for sharing copyrighted material.Its not the technology that needs to change its society that needs to change .If you cut off a pedophiles Internet acess he will probably wait out side your kids school offering candy the technology cannot change his intent ,

[AussieMatt]

And wouldn't it be better for the P2P community to respond with claims that Child Pornography can't flourish using P2P, instead of making fake claims of Anonymity and Privacy.


Read the Ants Licence Agreement and the specific clauses relating to harm to minors

http://www.myjavaserver.com.nyud.net:8090/~gwren/Ants/ANTs%20P2P%20License%20Agreement.zip

[Malicious Intent]

I see it in a very different way AM. Peadophiles can be caught hanging around schools. It got easier for them with the internet. P2P meant that they could share files without having to discuss it or request them. However, they can still be caught.

Anonymising networks takes it another step. 100s of people can be asked for pictures without talkin to another human. It is instant access to what was the underground before p2p. Peadophiles can now live safe in the knowledge that there is no way for them to get caught.

Comparisons with IMs and traditional networks are weak.

[AussieMatt]

This discussion about peodophiles on annonymous networks needs its own thread anyone wishing to continure it further make a new one and post a link here .Now lets talk about technicalities again .

[The Hunter]

Drop it, there will be no fanboying here, as proven by the number of threads I have closed. Also Im not concerned about what has been posted at other forums, just what is posted here, and this thread is for tec discussion.

[AussieMatt]

Hunter I think any flame posts while we are trying to have a reasoned discussion about the technical merits or flaws of this program should be deleted also so the discussion does not get diverted into a fight .

[Malicious Intent]

Did you ever tell us your views on endpoint encryption AM?

It seems to me (in my very, very small study!) that must observers think it is wasted. You have spent more time with Gwren - do you support his views?

[Watchmen]

Drop it, there will be no fanboying here, as proven by the number of threads I have closed. Also Im not concerned about what has been posted at other forums, just what is posted here, and this thread is for tec discussion.

I have been debating with myself over how to answer the turn this thread has taken however I disagree with your views. The only 'fanboying' I have seen exhibited here lately on zeropaid is of the ants program its self..is this what you were referring to, hunter?

Bottom Line: I don't trust these people and right now its only intuition that tells me these people aren't worthy of our trust...in time I'm sure we will all find this out unpleasantly.

Specifically we are addressing the 'technical merits' for something that doesn't exist:
anonymity and privacy on any network. It seems we are all just 'spinning our wheels' here in a philosophical filesharing debate discussing abstracts that haven't been achieved yet.

The ants network consists of two or three people right now with 20 at most (currently) and hardly deserves its own forum imho. However discussion over this 'fantom' client that appears to exist but has no substance generates good discussion concerning hypotheticals...the anonymity and encryption mentioned here are not working in this program presently and most likely will never be achieved regardless of our lengthy speeches made concerning security, anonymity and accountability.

If anything the amount rhetoric reminds one of es5. I've personally seen 'jetiant's being spammed on almost all major filesharing portals including places where its just been deemed inappropriate and rude to do so.

Its entirely possible the creation of this forum was meant to contain some of this constant repeated rhetoric that I see still spilling over into other legitamit discussions.

Ants or 'jetiants' is pimple on the giant ass of filesharing and is badly in need of removal.

[AussieMatt]

MI I think endpoint encryption is not wasted if you add a pgp system and in turn create VPN's within the Ants network which is in the plan for Ants development .Ants is not just a filesharing app its a ad-hock framework that could handle
Chat Protocols (Eric from Jeti thinks he can do this with a xml wrapper to work with Ants protocol)
HTML Browser (Aready Implimneted but very rudimentary)
Streaming ( Grwen has done a few tests )
Email (Somthing I would like to see and one of the better reasons for PGP keys)
I do agree that ants will not be a annonymous network but a safe network to host VPN clusters if the endpoint encryption is kept and PGP or certifercates are added .

I envision Ants and Projects like it are going help to development of Wireless Commuity Nets and how they secure themselves , authenticate connections and maybe how they iterface with the Internet .

Annonymous can also mean annonymous from the outside world.
WASTE calls itself annonymous for this very reason.

PS Thankyou MI for trying to get this discussion back on track

[Watchmen]

MI I think endpoint encryption is not wasted if you add a pgp system and in turn create VPN's within the Ants network which is in the plan for Ants development .Ants is not just a filesharing app its a ad-hock framework that could handle
Chat Protocols (Eric from Jeti thinks he can do this with a xml wrapper to work with Ants protocol)
HTML Browser (Aready Implimneted but very rudimentary)
Streaming ( Grwen has done a few tests )
Email (Somthing I would like to see and one of the better reasons for PGP keys)
I do agree that ants will not be a annonymous network but a safe network to host VPN clusters if the endpoint encryption is kept and PGP or certifercates are added .

PS Thankyou MI for trying to get this discussion back on track

"if" "maybe" "and" "but"

if dogster had all this it would be the bomb as well.
it sounds like to me we are dreaming of the perfect p2p...none of the things you've mentioned are a part of ants....just more hype, fake empty ass promises ala es5 voice over ip debicle.

My point being this isn't a discussion about ants at all merely our ideas for a perfect p2p program.

[AussieMatt]

PGP is in the actual plan of Ants Gwren is just waiting for Bouncy Castle PGP to release a stable version he can work with ,
Joson Roher had chat running over MUTE protocol before he decided to make a filesharing program to use with the MUTE protocol.
You need to look at what most computer science departments in universites resarching in p2p at the momnet its things like

PASTRY (Microsofts secure p2p implimetaion)
Onion Routing
Complex Adaptive Systems
Biomorphic Software
Mobile Ad Hock Networks

Remeber Ants is open source if you dont trust it get someone to look at the source code for you

ES5 is a closed source program that is funded by a known fugitive who is on the run from the US IRS that ran a dodgy porn bussiness and its high speed proxies are set up in the Gaza Strip where there is no copyright law becase they are to busy trying to create a Palistinian State.

[Watchmen]

PGP is in the actual plan of Ants Gwren is just waiting for Bouncy Castle PGP to release a stable version he can work with ,
Joson Roher had chat running over MUTE protocol before he decided to make a filesharing program to use with the MUTE protocol.
You need to look at what most computer science departments in universites resarching in p2p at the momnet its things like

PASTRY (Microsofts secure p2p implimetaion)
Computer Adaptive Systems
Biomoporphic Software
Mobile Ad Hock Networks

Remeber Ants is open source if you dont trust it get someone to look at the source code for you

ES5 is a closed source program that is funded by a known fugitive who is on the run from the US IRS that ran a dodgy porn bussiness and its high speed proxies are set up in the Gaza Strip where there is no copyright law becase they are to busy trying to create a Palistinian State.

I wanted to thankyou for this information and to also say that I hope you don't mind the criticism..as notbob was put it (paraphrasing and cleaned up just a little bit) "you have to expect some skepticism given the nature new development" and (bastardising notbob's quote because I can't remember it properly) "how you deal with that criticism will reflect well on yourself if met with a kind and or generous reply.

I must commend you on your replies to my almost flaming remarks concerning the program.

I almost called it your program..so (forgive me) but...tell us please exactly what your role is in all of this and are you any of the people mentioned in any of the linked quotes previously in this thread?

I have one very valid concern over someone who I may have incorrectly deemed a member of your 'posse' if you can call him that. I do not wish to post that person's name presently but I saw him post an ip address from someone he claimed was tsafa or tsafa1 and this concerned me that someone would have access to such personally identifiable information.

Do you need a link to the post..would that help?

The reason I quote you is so that the content of the quoted material isn't changed...I strongly suspect that because I did not quote the person who posted the other member's ip address that Ill only find an 'edited by' at the end of his or her posts.

I see a lot of edited by's at the end of your posts...and this is also a contributing factor to the trust issue I have with you (and the 'other' person) but primarily the fact that the network is so small that the ip address for anyone connecting to it could be obtained an posted here publicly really upsets me.

Edited to add



from (http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=23662)
tsafa1 I know Your IP - Don't be Sued Use ANts P2P to Hide IP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

ANts P2P is an amazing new file sharing program that hides your identiy.

However, you still have to take basic precautions like using a firewall.

tsafa1 challenged crackerjacker to find his ip on ANts p2p.

Well, tsafa I KNOW YOUR IP. Not due to a fault with ANts p2p but due to your lack of a firewall.

I am a long standing ANts P2P user. It is fast, fun, has loads of content and hides you identity.

However, it does not prevent you from MAKING SILLY MISTAKES (we all make mistakes from time to time).

tsafa1 if you do host a website on ANts P2P ensure you have a firewall blocking port 80 access!

Your IP is xxx.208.231.xxx I have put the XXX in as it would not be fair to broadcast your IP.

You are in the land of the free and home of the brave. In a place that is so good they had to name it twice. You ISP is the abbreviation of Amazingly Old Ladies.

If you DO NOT WANT TO BE SUED (or WORRY about being sued) for sharing music, books or movies then ANts P2P is the program for you. No agency on earth is going to hack hundreds of ips to procecute you for copyright infringement.

However, if you are a political actavist or freedom fighter in a repressive state and you could be put to death for publishing your thoughts PLEASE get technical advice before using ANts p2p. A firewall is essential.

BTW
If you don't make silly mistakes it is impossible for someone to match your ip to files being shared on ANts P2P.

It contains no backdoors and even the writer Gwren could no find the ip or stop an unauthorised web page being published, that is impressive.

ezzye
(first post after lurking for two years. Is this a record?)

[AussieMatt]

Im just a user who belives that this technology may have a future .I hav'nt used what you would call regualar p2p for over a year except Soulseek to share HARDCORE PUNK thats not on the RIAA radar.Otherwise I have WASTE running on a rather large mesh .Occasionally I'll run bitorrent to get a linux ISO for my Xbox .

Tsafa forgot to firewall his port 80 when he published a webpage over Ants
The Ants Tutorial on Publishing webpages Specifialy States you have to firewall Port 80 >If you dont the IP information from the HTML header will end up in the ANts debug log.
Tsafa is aware of this and has fixed it we told him before to to it but he didnt understand why LOL

Oh the edits are my typos I need spell check in forums badly.

Its best not to flame when you are trying to educate people that this technology is the future and has solid backing and research from govornments to universities and is not some crazy kids Idea like Dogster .
Some of the flaming could be social engineering by the RIAA and MPAA as they may not have a real defence against 'annonymous p2p' and people sharing on private networks also known as the 'darknet' once everyone goes to underground filesharing they will never find us and will never be able to sell us DRM and lossy MP3 formats.

Grwen the developer does have a hacking challenge on his website so anyone that thinks ants has a hole you are quite welcome to try crack it ,as a community we need to find a better solution and if technology like Ants has holes we need to point it out and fix it,

[AussieMatt]

Gwren couldnt even hack Ants when some of his music that he wasnt ready to publish and a photo that needed clearance from the photograhper ended up on a Website in Ants .He was going to stop all development of Ants if the person in question didnt take it down. It got taken down the next day.

[3rdgen]

QUESTIONS:

If ants works and is not vapour ware.

What content is available?

What is on these web sites?

Is it just porn?

If it is the same as on other P2P sites that actually work why the need for encryption and privacy.

In the discussion so far no one has mentioned how ants works? It sounds like most goverments in the free world's worst nightmare.

What exactly is being hidden?

While privacy is OK for most people there are loads of people I don't want to have privacy - like porn merchants, people who release movie when they are still showing at cinemas and albums before they are officially released.

Not to mention terrorists!

[Malicious Intent]

It is more than Vapourware 3rdgen. It is functioning in the form of MUTE and ANts.

Questions of content are wasted at this stage. The programs are still being tested. All networks have to start somewhere. Imagine the first people to use BitTorrent instead decided to ignore its potential as there were only a few torrents.

The MUTE website has lots of information about how anonymising networks work to stop your IP from being tied to the original source of a file. It is, to be fair, apparently impossible to discover which IP is the source of a file, hence the discussion is so focused on the liabilty of proxies.

The system is not perfect. It is far too slow to attract major attention at this stage. It makes more sense to take other precautions on traditional networks. However, this technology will be a major influence in the future.

[Malicious Intent]

Wow AM, it seems like there is a lot more development still to come.

Enpoint encryption may have its uses if what you say is true (i really dont know), but at this stage most people are interested in how they are going to keep sharing after the law slowly edges its way in.

Endpoint encryption is not useful for those people, but it is presented as if it is.

If you know the endpoint in the transfer - such as instant messaging - then why not make a direct connection and just encrypt what is sent? If you dont send the data via an unknown number of unknown proxies, then the data transfer will be much safer.

[AussieMatt]

3rd Gen you Just need to study the Gwens webpage and read everything to see how Ants works ,Also Look at the Dicussions on the MUTE Mailing List and read about the last 3 months posts they mostly talk about Ants .

[risingfoam]

ok this is just random posts about this subject that i got from a site. its nice to do that like sort of a blog.
btw encyrption is not going to matter in principle.
if u going to trust someone you might as well as use aim, icq, or dc, or something else.
heh but i will add more later
e:Too many people trying to use p2p (Score:1)
by photonagon (721776) on Sunday September 12, @06:25PM (#10230657)
True, at some point networks and machines will be so congested with various p2p protocals, that everyone will jump back to centralized servers.
[ Parent ]
Re:Too many people trying to use p2p (Score:4, Insightful)
by Bert690 (540293) on Sunday September 12, @08:09PM (#10231371)
True, at some point networks and machines will be so congested with various p2p protocals, that everyone will jump back to centralized servers.
If you'd take some time to actually read the article, you'd see that the story is about research that addresses congestion problems with existing p2p methods.

Besides, much if not most traffic from p2p networks is from file downloads, not query routing. Moving files to a centralized server isn't going to reduce that traffic at all. In fact, the bottlenecks that result can make congestion even worse.

Moving files to central servers only seems to help congestion because central servers with anything interesting to download tend to be shut down quickly.


[ Parent ]

Re:Too many people trying to use p2p (Score:2)
by Bryan Gividen (739949) on Sunday September 12, @06:28PM (#10230691)
The old ways of doing things still work.

Which is why I still prefer walking everywhere, using chalk and slate for taking notes, and refuse to use a zipper...

In other words, wtf?!?!
[ Parent ]
Re:Too many people trying to use p2p by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Sunday September 12, @06:38PM
Re:Too many people trying to use p2p by MoFoQ (Score:2) Monday September 13, @01:16AM
Re:Too many people trying to use p2p by kfg (Score:1) Sunday September 12, @07:03PM
Re:Too many people trying to use p2p by farble1670 (Score:2) Sunday September 12, @10:55PM
1 reply beneath your current threshold.

Re:Too many people trying to use p2p (Score:2, Interesting)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, @06:40PM (#10230794)
No, they won't. You need tons of server hardware to cope with the bandwidth of anything even remotely popular. Thus free services tend to be spoiled with ads and whatnot.

The magic of p2p is that you can build the same out of 'thin air'. There are no expensive server rooms and gigabit lines but just a bunch of nodes that are slightly more complicated than simple clients. You use it, you provide it. Fair game and you get exactly the kind of service you want without strings attached. At least theoretically - the reality still seems to be something different.
[ Parent ]

Re:Too many people trying to use p2p (Score:5, Insightful)
by cbiltcliffe (186293) on Sunday September 12, @10:06PM (#10232066)
(http://cbservices.dyndns.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday August 14, @01:12PM)
I'm sick of all this hype about p2p. Its a good technology but its not like we have to use it for everything. The old ways of doing things still work.

You're right, but consider this:

The entertainment industry is trying very hard to convince the US government that all P2P can be used for is copyright infringement, so it should be banned completely.
Any non-infringing use obviously proves them wrong, no matter how out there it is.

Right now, I think we need as many off-the-wall uses as possible for P2P, even if it's not the most efficient way to accomplish the task.
Calling mass attention to these uses wouldn't hurt, either.

[ Parent ]

Re:Too many people trying to use p2p (Score:1)
by timts (766509) on Monday September 13, @10:20AM (#10235916)
(Last Journal: Tuesday September 14, @08:42AM)
u r right, P2P for search will require a lot effort and result isnt reliable

I think proper cache is enough for web search, as long as you have a farm with tons of memory holding up everything, the search result can be fairly fast.

[AussieMatt]

MI I think the Implimentatin of a ants type of protocol over community wireless networks is the ultimate goal .Those nets need to be able to secure communications and also maybe hide as they get regulated by a agency such as the FCC who is moving to regulate all electronic transfer of data on land lines and over the wireless spectrum .This is why proxies are still needed also especialy if Ants can interface from wireless to landline internet .
Say a whistleblower from a corportation or the govornment posts a file or website on Ants at the moment ,we still want to hide its original source and how it got inserted into the network.People using a proposed chat in Ants may want simmilar protection so a snooping node cannot determine where those endpoints are on the network to confuse any type of attack they try to find them .

In response to 3rd gens questions about website content on Ants some is porn,some are indexes of hashes some are info about Ants .The webserver feature is very limited at the moment and still needs development.

Talking about govornments worst Nightmares Govornments arond the world are funding Reasarch into this technolgy and alot is actually for defence purposes. So they are probably your worst nightmare think about autonomous unmanned robots using wireless technology and some artifical intelligence using ant based swarming methods is one application of Biomorphic Software and Mobile Ad Hock Networks that is being researched thier possible aplications are for recon ,demining operations ,security to name a few .
Google for "Military applications of Biomorphic software"
A
nother is communication the US Navy was the one that created the Onion Routing Network that they tested for 2 years and TOR is a result of that .

[Watchmen]

3rd Gen you Just need to study the Gwens webpage and read everything to see how Ants works ,Also Look at the Dicussions on the MUTE Mailing List and read about the last 3 months posts they mostly talk about Ants .

This discussion looks like its back on track now..thanks AussieMatt and Malicious Intent for bringing it back in focus.

This looks like some really good advice and I plan to take it. =)

[Watchmen]

It is more than Vapourware 3rdgen. It is functioning in the form of MUTE and ANts.

Questions of content are wasted at this stage. The programs are still being tested. All networks have to start somewhere. Imagine the first people to use BitTorrent instead decided to ignore its potential as there were only a few torrents.

The MUTE website has lots of information about how anonymising networks work to stop your IP from being tied to the original source of a file. It is, to be fair, apparently impossible to discover which IP is the source of a file, hence the discussion is so focused on the liabilty of proxies.

The system is not perfect. It is far too slow to attract major attention at this stage. It makes more sense to take other precautions on traditional networks. However, this technology will be a major influence in the future.

This was a very good post Mal. So right now it isn't the content we should be concerned with but the technology behind how it works.

[3rdgen]

Does it matter how ants works?

Surely what matters is if it works?

An overlay network like the one both ants and mute propose sound good in theory like fusion but maybe not practical in practice.

What about the power law?

Why don't you do a short FAQ on how to use it to give more users a chance of using it instead of putting out the message that it is just for the "elite"?

Does it work?

[AussieMatt]

So you didnt read the webpage and tutorial I take it .

[3rdgen]

So does it work?

[AussieMatt]

Use it and find out

[AussieMatt]

If you cant connect tell us why and we might help you

[AussieMatt]

Ok Grwen relesed a version that doesnt have the memory leaks unlike some other versins after BETA
0.5.0 the latest version is BETA 0.6.3 and is appearing to be stable .One reson I did'nt respond to 3rd Gens cliams if Ants worked or not is that thier where problems in the code that was cuasing ants to shut down after a few hours of use if it was a version after 0.5.0 .Remeber Ants is BETA and may not always work when Gwren changes the code So we as a commuitty would prefer experienced P2P user s to eveluate it and more technical orientated people to test it and see if they can help find any bugs so they can be repoerted and hopfully fixed in the next beta release ,

[Watchmen]

This shows promise.

[AussieMatt]

Ha ha Ive got one convert in Watchman anyway just another 6 Milloin filesharers to go

[Stownplayer]

Come on let's get back on topic.

ANts is about protecting user privacy so that users can share music, books and movies privately (RIAA and MPAA cannot see source of files). It is NOT about child ponography and Terrorism etc. The people who spread those rumours in the media are usually affiliated to RIAA / MPAA who hate file sharing (of any type) as its losing them some of their MEGA-PROFITS. (BTW I'm an not saying that SirKillJoy is in anyway affiliated with the RIAA or MPAA.)
If anyone logs on to the ANts network they will see, in terms of content, loads of MP3s, books(pdf) and movies from around the world as users are not afraid to share their whole media collection. (Although probably not the one they are after as the network is tiny.)

sure there is some porn but guess what there is the SAME porn on the internet.

Privacy is a right not a privalege. By asking for that right you are not seeking to break the law.


sorry to rain on your parade but i've used ants for about a month now and i can't find shit i want. I don't see loads of good stuff, i see loads of crap and when i try to get them i see the tranfer take a long freakin time. This project needs a lot more work. I don't have the technical expertise to know wether it protects privacy but i will not trust this app until it is proven by experts. Until that day it's just another app and i'll protect my but every other way i know.

[fnordprefect]

It would be nice if Gwren could put changlog notes up with the new releases. It would make testing much easier.

The Sourceforge file notes are usually blank.

[ezzye]

Apologies first of all for cross-posting as this appeared on Slyck this morning.

(I am posting this under my own steam - I have not asked Gwen's permission as it was already in public domain).

I thought readers at Zeropaid Ants forum may be interested in reading this from Gwren.


Post subject: mmm... bitter to here unjustified critics!


It's very annoying hearing that you think Ants supporters are simple spammers! You should read the real definition of spamming... have a look at Wikipedia!

In a couple of words...

spammer: person that sends thousands of message to thousands of people in order to pubblicize its own products.

supporter: person NOT INVOLVED in the production process of a product (and surely in the gain related to it) that pubblicize the same product because it liked.

I am THE ONLY programmer and owner of the ants code right now... I never sent thousands of messages or done any xpost to pubblicize ANts, so I'm not a spammer, infact I wouldn't have the time and the money to be a spammer, I'm a programmer my time and my badwith are precious and I waste time in programming not in spamming!

You can find releases info on two newsgroups related to p2p:

alt.internet.p2p
it.comp.software.p2p

That is the only place where I post something!
I NEVER SENT BULK MAILS or POSTED AROUND FORUMS messages to pubblicize ANts.
I wasn't aware also of the existence of Slyck!!!!
Those at Slyck contacted me (Michael Ingram) to hear about ANts, they set up a forum, and surely others made posts around and others sent bulk mails in the case you received it: one example? The jeti ants project... not related in ANY way to ants and subjected to huge spamming... that's not my fault and smart people should see that ANts and Jetiants are NOT related... ANts is open source, anyone can take its code and build another program on its top, this is what those at jetiants did, if they spam around to pubblicize it that is not my fault! I have no control over it!
As well, many other sites got interested in ANts, I received collaborations requests from companies, programmers and people in general. Currently the Sourceforge page has 150.000 contacts since it was put up, my personal site counts 80.000 visitors.

So if you read so much about ANts there are several reasons:

1) It works... and if you can't manage to make it working that's your fault on one side and that's because it's in beta testing (so hard to be configured) on the other side!

2) People (researchers) like the ideas which ANts is built on... ad-hoc networking and anonymous networks.

3) People also like the way ANts is developed. No sporadic releases that fix tons of bugs introducing again another tons (the windows service pack technique!) but daily patches that fix bugs step by step. So the real and constant feedback from the users is the greates idea behind ANts in my opinion... people feel this program as if they were its developers and not simple users, this is the main reason why people support ANts and why you read so much about it around the net... simply lot of enthusiatic supporters!

So please stop doing comparison between ANts and ES5, I always hated ES5 since I installed it the first time, malware and spamming were the basis which that program was built on... open source philosophy is something really different and ANts took that philosophy to its extreme shape, this is the reason of it success...

Gwren


So I would advise ANts users to avoid Slyck.com unless you want a frosty welcome :)

[freethenet]

Please note.

You are here because of interest.
That means you will have your own creative input ; which is not based on other`s ideas and formulae.

There is no current "focus" in this thread , therefore a complete waste of time,thus allowing interlopers to prosper.

Those that believe they have ideas should read what is already researched, to contrast, and then post.

Viewing an php page containing duplicity is pointless.

It is a waste of electricity, as it is a waste of a programmers` time



Out

[easye]

ezzye,, you are the dumbest fucking fanboy spammer on the net since earth station five. you need to be banned from every forum on the net,, and if u got banned from slyck you fucking deserved it. i saw your posts you pathetic fanboy. ive never seen such a huge amount of pointless spam in every post in my life

its a shame gwren has to reply to accusations of spam because of lowlife fanboys like you.you alone make ants look like the next earth station five.so quit what your doing and put your modem out the window

sry for the flames but this guy has spammed every board out there and im fucking sick of it

[Slycktom]

ANts users are more than welcome on Slyck. Spammers and frivolous spam boys are not...

[aqlo]

Gwren couldnt even hack Ants when some of his music that he wasnt ready to publish and a photo that needed clearance from the photograhper ended up on a Website in Ants .He was going to stop all development of Ants if the person in question didnt take it down. It got taken down the next day.

Read that again. If you share kiddyporn, that's fine. But if you share something the designer doesn't like, he will pitch a hissy fit and threaten to fuck off forever. Like that would be a big loss.

Mute is a real, original idea. Ants and Jeti-ants are cheap ripoffs being used to divide the p2p community. The information wants to be free, and piss on anyone who wants to restrict it!

[jeti]

I created the jetiants domain as a nice to remember start page for the combination of my instant messenger Jeti and the Ants p2p program, I'm very sorry that one user got a bit over enthusiastic and posted it everywhere

[AussieMatt]

Ants is open source so even if grwen dissapeared the code would still be availible for someone to take up where he left it.Just look at WASTE Justin Frankel coulnt work on it any longer and couldnt to pitch it to AOL even though he tried ,he released it as open source and development continues today.Hate to say it but where are Jasons promised improvements that he proposed on his timeline his fundraising goal was met and still no action.

[Watchmen]

Read that again. If you share kiddyporn, that's fine. But if you share something the designer doesn't like, he will pitch a hissy fit and threaten to fuck off forever. Like that would be a big loss.

Mute is a real, original idea. Ants and Jeti-ants are cheap ripoffs being used to divide the p2p community. The information wants to be free, and piss on anyone who wants to restrict it!

good points.


Ants is open source so even if grwen dissapeared the code would still be availible for someone to take up where he left it.Just look at WASTE Justin Frankel coulnt work on it any longer and couldnt to pitch it to AOL even though he tried ,he released it as open source and development continues today.Hate to say it but where are Jasons promised improvements that he proposed on his timeline his fundraising goal was met and still no action.

so ants is just a ripoff of the mute program then I guess it wouldn't matter. How much of it is stolen. I haven't examined mute only ants...and it is a hacker's paradise.

[AussieMatt]

Watchmen Ants uses Simmilar routing and concepts that MUTE uses and it inspired grwen to create Ants about the only simmilarity
.Ants is is Java MUTE is written in c++
Jason and Grwen do regualry correspond with each other and have discussed a possible RFC and have great debates regarding end to end encrytion in forums and on thier own websites .
Ants users would probly all be useing MUTE if resume and multisource where implimented but we are still waiting for this in MUTE when it was promised 6 months ago .So when MUTE gets at least those two features you will see a big jump from Ants to Mute again .the best would be a common protocol for both clients and this maybe sorted out by the RFC .It seems the only ones at loggerheads with each other are ANts and MUTE users not the developers.

[Watchmen]

Watchmen Ants uses Simmilar routing and concepts that MUTE uses and it inspired grwen to create Ants about the only simmilarity
.Ants is is Java MUTE is written in c++
Jason and Grwen do regualry correspond with each other and have discussed a possible RFC and have great debates regarding end to end encrytion in forums and on thier own websites .
Ants users would probly all be useing MUTE if resume and multisource where implimented but we are still waiting for this in MUTE when it was promised 6 months ago .So when MUTE gets at least those two features you will see a big jump from Ants to Mute again .the best would be a common protocol for both clients and this maybe sorted out by the RFC .It seems the only ones at loggerheads with each other are ANts and MUTE users not the developers.

I would be interested in reading some of these debates. Can you link me to a few of them?

[AussieMatt]

you will just have to plough through the MUTE mailing list and try filter out eusval's spamin posts

[Watchmen]

That could be quite a task ;)
But will sort it out. :)

[Raize]

Here's a fun activity:
Type "child porn" into your favorite P2P app.

Let me know if you get 0 results.

Child pornography itself is *NOT* limited to just one P2P app. The problem is a great deal larger than that. ANTS doesn't, by existence, condone child pornography. At least, not anymore than any other P2P app would.

[tsafa1]

Its all about Deniability folks. Ants (and Mute) do not made a direct connection between the source of a file and its destination. This puts you in a position to say i never downloaded or i never uploaded those files. If you are ever tagged for a lawsuit i sugest you replace you harddrive and keep it at someone elses house because it BROKE (wink).

As far as the IRC channel, it server same function as Webhost caches, with two exception. One, if they are attacked it is very easy to move to a new chanel, any one will do. Second, you can chat. but becarful because the chat room is NOT anonymous. Only the p2p part and the http tunnel are anonymous.

[tsafa1]

For those of you who do not know. Gwren, the programmer of Ants has been sick for about a week. That is the reason we have had seen any new updates. Also reason for not much activity in the forem. No new releases means nothing new to talk about.

I did get an interesting PM from a guy called Zeroaid. He says he was banned and feels it was for talking about ants. i don't recall seeing any posts form him to tell you the truth, but i could be wrong. Is there any truth to this? moderators?

[The Hunter]

He was banned for trolling/insulting other members, and sending harassing PMs.

[ANtsP2P]

He was banned for trolling/insulting other members, and sending harassing PMs.If he did not post to forum how could he be banned for trolling or have you removed the trolling posts?
BTW ZP is going to be in British press - I will post link when its published.

[ANtsP2P]

For those of you who do not know. Gwren, the programmer of Ants has been sick for about a week. That is the reason we have had seen any new updates. Also reason for not much activity in the forem. No new releases means nothing new to talk about.

I did get an interesting PM from a guy called Zeroaid. He says he was banned and feels it was for talking about ants. i don't recall seeing any posts form him to tell you the truth, but i could be wrong. Is there any truth to this? moderators?
I would just like to say get well soon Gwren.
We really appreciate the work you have put into this opensource project during your spare time.

BTW The number of users seems to be increasing quickly. We had a record number of users yesterday.

Thanks :error

[The Hunter]

It was what he was doing through personal messages on this forum, IE harassing other members.

[ANtsP2P]

It was what he was doing through personal messages on this forum, IE harassing other members.OR was it because you like banning people? What did he say in these private messages and who was it to? Can he appeal? You know there is only one G_D.

[aqlo]

He doesn't like banning people though, that's what you guys don't understand. He's going to hate banning you, for example.

8) Don't pursue arguments with the mods regarding judgment calls - You won't win and you might get banned. Members are encouraged to seek an understanding with the moderator in question through the use of private messages. If that doesn’t work to a member’s satisfaction, please feel free to contact another mod to approach the first mod on your behalf. If none of these options return satisfactory results, please contact the administration with your concerns.

http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/announcement.php?f=121
*top sticky in every forum

[ANtsP2P]

He doesn't like banning people though, that's what you guys don't understand. He's going to hate banning you, for example.



http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/announcement.php?f=121
*top sticky in every forumHe HATES ANts anyway. Everybody HATES us BUT we don't CARE.

[The Hunter]

I dont hate Ants, what I personally hate are trolls, racist posts, and people accusing me of being racist. The banning was done after discussion, and not just using my opinion. Some of the crap I have recieved in my PM box lately was more than insulting. Again it was decieded by discussion.

[ANtsP2P]

I dont hate Ants, what I personally hate are trolls, racist posts, and people accusing me of being racist. The banning was done after discussion, and not just using my opinion. Some of the crap I have recieved in my PM box lately was more than insulting. Again it was decieded by discussion.No Probs - I know you're a nice guy really :black

Glad you're on the ball and trained in these matters - that ZP academy is fantastic :shy

[tsafa1]

here is a more detailed leter that was sent to shreder and posted in dutch-ants. Keep in mind english in second language to Gwren:

Posted on 01-09-2005 06:40:49 pm by shredder
I send grwen an email and here is the reaction of him.

hi
I've just returned from my holidays on the Alpes... I had nice time there,
but now I'm a still bit sick (I found very bad weather there ). ANts is
actually a bit stuck now, I have to prepare an oral exam by th 20th of Jan,
so I have not so much time to fix bugs or to think about new routing
solutions. This release (ok it's still buggy) seems ok, there are no
clamourous crashes or stuffs, downloads are ok, even if they remain stuck
sometimes. What I have to do now is to investigate the reason for our stuck
downloads, but that seems the last "big" problem. Infact memory occupation
and cpu usage seems now under conrol. I think I'll have more time to
dedicate to ANts after this exam session. I also work on other projects
(related or not to ANts) so I'm in a lack of phisical time now, also to read
and answer to every mail I receive. So please sorry If I've been not so
"alive" in the channel during the last period, you know we have all our
lives. I appreciate really much all the work behind the ANts community, you
are all great! Hope to find more time soon to improve performances and
freaks on ANts...

[ANtsP2P]

Thanks for passing this on.

Tsafa could you pass on my thanks to Gwren.

ANts P2P 8.1 is the best release yet and works well apart for the odd stuck download and I've got a solution to that. I will spec this up and write some code that Gwren can look at after he has finished his exams.

I know what exams are like so I understand why he can't do any work currently on ANts.

And to the rest of U, ANts P2P testers, hang in there don't let the HATERS spoil it for U.

If you listen to them you would stop file sharing and BUY a newsgroup account instead :hi

ANts had more users than ever today - another record :wings

[evilmegaman]

the hunter's been baby sitting you guys long enough.

If you guys want to complain about something complain to me. Not hunter.

-thanks

[Malicious Intent]

Or CJ - you can discuss it with her over a cup of her special STFU. Now comes with whip.

[hawkburn]

the hunter's been baby sitting you guys long enough.

If you guys want to complain about something complain to me. Not hunter.

-thanks
That goes for me as well. I'm willing to be PM'ed.... I haven't cleaned out my inbox extensively (maybe every 6 months or so) for the almost 3 years I've been here, so I could use some mail.

[tsafa1]

8.4 is out. addresses stuck downloads. Try it out and report your results.

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

That goes for me as well. I'm willing to be PM'ed.... I haven't cleaned out my inbox extensively (maybe every 6 months or so) for the almost 3 years I've been here, so I could use some mail.

Ditto here.

[tsafa1]

I'm starting to think that there are more mods then regular users here. Do they hold a weekly lottory, lol. Just kidding guys.

[mfgbypooter]

Or CJ - you can discuss it with her over a cup of her special STFU. Now comes with whip. LMMFAMFO!
.

[Faithful Kato]

I await the Hornet's return. Like they could not keep me away from Jim Carrey's ex-wife, nobody can keep the Hornet away from the heart and soul of filesharing. From now on, you bullies can face the noble Kato if you seek a confrontation. I will slap mods around with my Jeet Kun Do if they seek to inflict harm on the Hornet.

Elvis says aloha.

[tsafa1]

8.4 still has stuck uploads problem :-(

[ANtsP2P]

I thought 8.4 would not solve the stuck downloads as Gwren did not have enough time to work on it.

What Gwren has solved is the items in queue with zero slots issue.

Gwren should concentrate on his exam for now then we can all regroup after the 20th to solve this issue.

There are two soluions on the table and some code Gwren has both. Gwren probably has quite a few other solutions as well that only he knows.

I think we should avoid stressing him until his exams are out of the way.

No one was expecting 8.4. We have come such a long way since alpha days we are nearly there all we need is a little patience.

Times may be tough now with a few slow stuck downloads but we can still have some fast downloads.

We are so near; round the corner ANts will be as fast as any 2nd gen P2P application but with privacy as well. All that it will take is work. Even ABC( I think its him can't be sure as we are all anonymous) has decided to do some work, a RFC for a ants plugin for BT.

Thanks Tsafa for keeping us informed.

[tsafa1]

heehee, that man does not take a break. Version
8.5 rolled out today. I have been running 3 hrs 45 min. Stuck uploads and downloads probelms seems fixed. Well, know for sure by tomorrow after everyone is updated and more extensive testing is done.

Nice job Gwren, now hit those books.

[tsafa1]

follow up on 8.5 , it is beter but did not completly fix stuck transfers problem. transfer were moving very smoothly after 6 hours uptime. But when i check again after 10 hours uptime, uploads where stuck. restarting fixed the problem temporarily.

[CactusChris]

Tsafa - I cannot deny that the stuck downloads is a problem - but the explanation of more and more proxying gives me a problem mentally, where is all the proxied data going if it isn't ending up in someones inbox. Even if the chain gets longer some should still arrive and it does seem that the throughput continues while input dies.
I wondered if (like me) the queued list has got longer and longer - with little effort to lose any files that were obveously only on the network for a short time (ie they are still at 0%), and the entire ANts network is struggling under the weight of (~40 users * many queued downloads * auto query frequency) packets all asking everyone for files and hash maps. Perhaps if we all called an amnesty and asked everyone to remove all unfinished downloads, especially thos with 0 downloaded so far, and keep their queue box to a reasonable number of files, that would help the whole network.

[ANtsP2P]

Tsafa - I cannot deny that the stuck downloads is a problem - but the explanation of more and more proxying gives me a problem mentally, where is all the proxied data going if it isn't ending up in someones inbox. Even if the chain gets longer some should still arrive and it does seem that the throughput continues while input dies.
I can explain with this example.

Imagine a proxy chain of 5 nodes A to E

A--B--C--D--E

E requests a file from A.
A sends it via B,C and D.
B and C proxy the file but D is over loaded and so the transfer of the file fails.
C tries several times to send file to D eventually timing out
E then times out waiting for file
E the requests the file again the message gets through as it takes hardly any bandwidth

A sends file again either by same or different route maybe this time it gets through.

However, when more data is demanded from the network than it can cope with more and more blockages like D occurr (overloaded nodes). ANts then routes around these blockages making proxy chains longer. (http://www.cs.unibo.it/bison/deliverables/D05.pdf BISON IST-2001-38923 Biology-Inspired techniques for Self Organization in dynamic Networks see page 77)

All it takes is one blockage on this long proxy chain for all that bandwidth used in proxying that data to be wasted. Plus the data is then resent.

So if you think about it a 100% of network bandwidth can be used up to proxy data without any being delivered. It just goes from node to node until it is lost when it meets a blockage.

This is not a fault of the ANts routing protocol.

Any network like the Internet or a P2P system would fail under similar conditions.

ANts can load balance and route around blockages but it needs bandwidth to do this!

There are loads of solutions. For example:
Ask users pay to use Ants network which then use this money to buy capacity to meet user demand. Each user would need at least 2 to 3 times their bandwidth to proxy their bandwidth.
Ask users to be fair and not to download or upload too much. However, it would only take a few users to be selfish to start the deadlock process again. This is because Ants routes around the blockages making proxy chains longer so using more bandwidth therefore causing more blockages and so on.
Ration the bandwidth each node uses to proxy and upload data(half available bandwidth for proxy and half for upload), and number of data upload destinations without limiting ability of nodes to route or upload messages that do not relate to file transfer.So whenever proxy bandwidth was overloaded nodes could RANDOM WALK and still make direct downloads using the upload half their bandwidth limit.




I wondered if (like me) the queued list has got longer and longer - with little effort to lose any files that were obveously only on the network for a short time (ie they are still at 0%), and the entire ANts network is struggling under the weight of (~40 users * many queued downloads * auto query frequency) packets all asking everyone for files and hash maps. Perhaps if we all called an amnesty and asked everyone to remove all unfinished downloads, especially thos with 0 downloaded so far, and keep their queue box to a reasonable number of files, that would help the whole network.
Gwren has already thought about this. If you look at the ANts code you will see that it limits the number of queries a node can make per minute. So the node cannot be flooded by auto queries.
However having loads of auto resume items is an issue for users as they cause the query per minute limit to be breach so stopping other queries. So files that seem unlikely to ever be downloaded should be removed.
:aim

[tsafa1]

Perhaps if we all called an amnesty and asked everyone to remove all unfinished downloads, especially thos with 0 downloaded so far, and keep their queue box to a reasonable number of files, that would help the whole network.

I had actualy wondered about he effect all the qued dowloads might have too. I have about 20 of them. I also understand what Antsp2p said about the limits Gwren put in. But I think it can't hurt to kill all the downloads that are 0% complete any way. I will tell the guys in the chanel of this idea.

[CactusChris]

Thanks ANtsP2P for that:
"All it takes is one blockage on this long proxy chain for all that bandwidth used in proxying that data to be wasted. Plus the data is then resent."
I know that in MUTE one can see that an occasional node (in MUTE it has to be a peer connected to oneself) manages to drop almost all the blocks (chunks). This really can mess up the effectiveness of the program and sometimes nearly kills queries and downloads dead (at least from a first person perspective).

[fnordprefect]

Would it be possible for nodes to cache a small amount (configurable) of the chunks that are requested from it?

In the example above (A to E) if C had a few chunks cached, and so did A and B, then the download could be renewed more quickly if D drops out of the chain.

That would make Ants a bit more like Freenet, but nodes would only be expected to cache a few MB instead of the hundreds that Freenet needs.

[tsafa1]

Would it be possible for nodes to cache a small amount (configurable) of the chunks that are requested from it?

In the example above (A to E) if C had a few chunks cached, and so did A and B, then the download could be renewed more quickly if D drops out of the chain.

That would make Ants a bit more like Freenet, but nodes would only be expected to cache a few MB instead of the hundreds that Freenet needs.

cacheing would be very effective in mute, because it does not have end to end encryption. Any node in the network can then download that cached data. In Ants the cached data can only be used by the original uplaoder and downloader. No one else in the network can make use of that data. It would be storing information that could never be used again.

You you did say a small amount of data. i will mention that to gwren. If we are talking about one or two chunks that would soon be automaticaly deleted that may make a lot of sence. This way if one node losses some data , it does not have to go all the way back to the source to get it again. Thats is a very interesting idea indeed

[fnordprefect]

Yes, I forgot the end-to-end encryption. That does put a spanner in the works.

Still, if nodes were to cache a few chunks that could still be useful. As long as the requesting node doesn't go off-line and come back (new ID, means new encryption key) then it might be able to retrieve those cached chunks.

For that to work, the requestor would have to find the cached chunks somehow.
That would require some kind of session key be assigned by the sender node and transmitted along with the first chunk and saved by the proxy nodes as well.

Someone a lot smarter than me could have a look at Freenet's architecture and see if there's anything there we can pinch^H^H^H^H^Htake inspiration from.

[CactusChris]

Has everyone seen this:
http://www.baytsp.com/press/firstsource_pressrelease.html as part of this:
http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=638
Whether it is retrospective or not it is another major problem for bittorrent and edonkey - and automatic logging will increse the R*A*'s database of copyright infringing ip addresses.

[tsafa1]

You you did say a small amount of data. i will mention that to gwren. If we are talking about one or two chunks that would soon be automaticaly deleted that may make a lot of sence. This way if one node losses some data , it does not have to go all the way back to the source to get it again. Thats is a very interesting idea indeed

This is Gwren's response:

You forget many things... end to end encryption first of all, which makes impossible such a behaviour for the net, the node in the middle will always see ONLY cripted packets. Second, you forget that a node accept messages signed ONLY by the other endpoint it is comunicating with, so there is actually no way to have "cache in the middle", that is, in other words, no way to be man in the middle unless you are not the owner of the packet itself.

[fnordprefect]

[Wile E Coyote]
Oh well, back to the old drawing board.
[/WEC]

[CactusChris]

Now this could scupper p2p as well as online sales (perhaps)
http://p2pnet.net/story/3735

Making a tax on data exchange would alter peoples views wouldn't it - no doubt the good ol' R*A* would be asking for a share.

[fnordprefect]

There is no way this will fly. The Telco companies will spend any amount of lobbyist money to kill this. It would cost business in the US trillions of dollars.

[ABC_thellookoflove]

Yes, I forgot the end-to-end encryption. That does put a spanner in the works.

Still, if nodes were to cache a few chunks that could still be useful. As long as the requesting node doesn't go off-line and come back (new ID, means new encryption key) then it might be able to retrieve those cached chunks.

For that to work, the requestor would have to find the cached chunks somehow.
That would require some kind of session key be assigned by the sender node and transmitted along with the first chunk and saved by the proxy nodes as well.

Someone a lot smarter than me could have a look at Freenet's architecture and see if there's anything there we can pinch^H^H^H^H^Htake inspiration from.


but you could cache completed chunks, I hope at the recieving node they of couse will give a hash and keyword queryhitback.

So it is optinal to store the chunk of the requested file in the direct neighbour of the reciever.