1984 - A lie becomes Truth if told often enough.

[Afn]

I found a CBC radio documentary on George Orwell's life (five hours, made and broadcasted in 1984, then re-broadcasted in 2000), and that prompted me to rent the movie 1984 made in 1984.

Eric Blair wrote 1984 under the pen name of George Orwell's . Blair's real life was very interesting, shot in combat in the neck that just missed his voice box, his wife died 10 months after adopting a child. (Blair could not have children) The stress of writing 1984, published in 1949, may have shortened Blair's life.

A lie becomes Truth if told often enough. The people have to be "told" what to think. Love of Big Brother (loyality to the nation-state) is more important than freedom, truth, search for reason and knowlege.

After watching the movie, the 24 hour news channels reminded me of big brother. Always on, always promoting some distortion of the truth in the name of truth seeking. (Business news sponsored by wealthy corporations for example.)

A lie becomes Truth if told often enough.

In 1984, Apple ran a commerical on the superbowl announcing IBM as big brother, and Apple as the tool to distroy the control of big brother (IBM).

Taking a page out of Orwell's novel 1984, the apple ipod is a good example. We need big brother. Big brother is our friend.

Replace big brother with DRM, and I think you see my point.

[Munter99]

I think that was a rubbish post and that youre confused

[mcovey]

I think that you've seen too many conspiracy movies. The government is not out to get you, and they are not watching me now, laughing at my ignorance.

Muahahahaha!!!

[ASUmusicMAN]

wait...so the evil 24 hour news channels are big brother ?

and drm?

I guess I should watch my back; everyone's out to get me!

[sicknote]

cough cough patriot act cough cough

[notbob]

maybe if some of you actually read the book, you'd get the post

but i doubt that'll happen

[Afn]

I think that was a rubbish post and that youre confusedA lie becomes Truth if told often enough. Ignorance is freedom.

You should watch the movie 1984, and see the connection between meaningless information "Choc Production is up 34%"

Statistics are meaningless in this context. As information, "music production down 54%" is a meaninless statistic. Do this often enough and you can frame issues around propaganda and manipulate information for social control.

News becomes propaganda when the medium is owned by people who have business interests and do not want to tell the objective truth because that would decrease the market, profitablity or creditablity of the network or it's parent corporation or corporations.

Media is designed to sell products, and create and sustain the illusion of objectivity.

It is something to think about. A lie told often enough becomes truth.

Watch 1984 and draw your own conclusions.

[Afn]

wait...so the evil 24 hour news channels are big brother ?

and drm?!
News becomes propaganda when the medium is owned by people who have business interests and do not want to tell the objective truth because that would decrease the market, profitablity or creditablity of the network or it's parent corporation or corporations.

There is no good reason to show filesharing positively on news networks that have entertainment and film divisions (Fox) or accept advertising from media companies.

1984 as a work is relevent today, just as it was in 1949.

Funny, in the last several years we have heard how thousands and thousands of jobs have been eliminated, how millions of people do not have jobs to support a middle class lifestyle or buy that nice car or new house, and yet we see and hear no negative reaction to such events. No angry laid off workers, no response. On to the next layoff.

The point is there is no counter point to news stories. 10,000 Telcom workers laid off, Next story. And now extensive commentary and coverage on the new book __________. So they talk 15 minutes about how great this book is.

It is not news, it is designed to sell products and ideas.

Some of the ideas expressed in 1984 are still relevent today, important also.

[Munter99]

maybe if some of you actually read the book, you'd get the post

but i doubt that'll happen


So, I can only assume you agree with the original poster, in that you need to be told how to think by multinational corporations, and that you agree with all lies people tell you if they tell you it often enough.

[Munter99]

There is no good reason to show filesharing positive on news networks that have entertainment and film divisions. (Fox)



Youre right, there isnt a good reason. Is there?
.

[sicknote]

looks like Afn`s away let me try to explain

When its put like this the quote sounds wrong.


There is no good reason to show filesharing positive on news networks that have entertainment and film divisions. (Fox)

When put in context with the rest of the paragraph.


News becomes propaganda when the medium is owned by people who own interests that would be less profitable if information was broadcasted that displayed objective truth. There is no good reason to show filesharing positive on news networks that have entertainment and film divisions. (Fox)


What i understand it to mean is that main steam broadcasters wont giveout a nice story about P2P software when they control the general media being spread across it.

[Afn]

looks like Afn`s away let me try to explain

When its put like this the quote sounds wrong.



When put in context with the rest of the paragraph.




What i understand it to mean is that main steam broadcasters wont giveout a nice story about P2P software when they control the general media being spread across it.
Yes, that is the general idea. The broadcasting industry is more interested in profit than public service. We all hear "1984" in conversations. I rented the movie version of the book, and thought it was worth a posting.

Last night I watched 15 to 20 minutes of television/cable and could not enjoy any of the channels except for a few minutes of a baseball game. Here thousands of hours of programming are produced, more every year, and none of it could hold my attention.

[Munter99]

so spreading positive news about p2p is a public service?


sicknote, of course they wont portray p2p positively when they think its destroying their business. it really is that simple, its hardly a revelation. Would you like a nicely balanced report about paedophiles too? I mean, those guys dont get much positive press.

[sicknote]

so spreading positive news about p2p is a public service?


sicknote, of course they wont portray p2p positively when they think its destroying their business. it really is that simple, its hardly a revelation. Would you like a nicely balanced report about paedophiles too? I mean, those guys dont get much positive press.

Dont shoot the messenger i showed you my interpretation of Afn`s post

I didnt extend my own opinion.

If you want to talk about the other subject i suggest you take it up with ccsdude

but just for a laugh heres another glorious Bill Hicks quote

******

Supreme Court says pornography is anything without artistic merit that causes sexual thoughts, that's their definition, essentially. No artistic merit, causes sexual thoughts. Hmm... Sounds like...every commercial on television, doesn't it? You know, when I see those two twins on that Doublemint commercial? I'm not thinking of gum. I am thinking of chewing, so maybe that's the connection they're trying to make.
******

[begoodbebad]

Thanks for the post afn. It doesn't matter that people don't agree or have to agree with your conclusion. You saw a great film, as true to a book as it's possible to be, and this is one film that cannot fail to undo another layer of fog from the human consciousness and let us be reminded of some truths. Read the book too, you'll love it and it goes even deeper. Also read Orwell's essays and journalism and other novels. He is one of the greatest English and English language writers, and also someone who proved in the most brave and physical ways that he had the courage of his convictions. Everything he wrote about the power and control in society is timelessly true as well as specifically true of his era and our language and post war Britain.
His vision of Britain as being named Airstrip One and being just a strategic arm of the American power is more true every day. When the US or Nato bombs Libya or Iraq or the former Yugoslavia the bombers are flying from Airstrip One.

[DampCold]

First, I would like to say that a lie never becomes the truth, irregardless of what people believe. Although I suppose you probably meant to say a lie becomes accepted as truth. Mere semantics. Also I believe there was a project, Echelon, where the government (actually a group of countries) was recording phone conversations and some internet communications. The US government of course denied it and said it was only other countries doing it. Their ultimate goal was to create to program that could search seven levels deep (synonyms) on keywords to see if they match red flag words. And that was before the patriots act (which just legalized things).

[sicknote]

THIS is Menwith Hill-the biggest spy base on earth.

Its golf ball-shaped domes hide some of the most powerful spying devices on the planet, capable of listening in on millions of conversations across the world simultaneously - by phone, fax, e-mail .. even a baby monitor.

More worrying the base - 20 miles north of Leeds - could be a prime target in a new nuclear arms race.

The American-controlled spy station is home to futuristic technology which could be used as part of an early warning for a US-run Son of Star Wars defence system.

Prime Minister Tony Blair is facing mounting pressure to oppose or commit to the US National Missile Defence scheme which could involve Menwith Hill and Fylingdales on the North York Moors. New US president George W Bush is determined to press ahead with the controversial programme.

Yet despite the international significance of Menwith Hill, set in the heart of beautiful Yorkshire countryside, its activities and its purpose are shrouded in secrecy.

The Government refuses to talk in any detail about it. MPs are left in the dark, local councils have no control over it and its power appears to be unchecked.

Campaigners claim it is anti-democratic, unaccountable and dangerous.

http://www.cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/starget.htm

[mcovey]

First, I would like to say that a lie never becomes the truth, irregardless of what people believe. Although I suppose you probably meant to say a lie becomes accepted as truth. Mere semantics. Also I believe there was a project, Echelon, where the government (actually a group of countries) was recording phone conversations and some internet communications. The US government of course denied it and said it was only other countries doing it. Their ultimate goal was to create to program that could search seven levels deep (synonyms) on keywords to see if they match red flag words. And that was before the patriots act (which just legalized things).

echelon is real, and you have nothing to be afraid of. If you are having a "suspicious conversation", it is analyzed further, and in the event that it seems you are talking in code, or directly about a "plot", you are put under surveillance. A very slow percentage of calls made are listened to by humans.

[Matt865]

echelon is real, and you have nothing to be afraid of. If you are having a "suspicious conversation", it is analyzed further, and in the event that it seems you are talking in code, or directly about a "plot", you are put under surveillance. A very slow percentage of calls made are listened to by humans.

Yup, ECHELON is very real, its not really any big secret. On 5 July 2000 the European Parliament set up a temporary committee on ECHELON and reported back. There's a .pdf file report on their website here. (http://www.europarl.eu.int/tempcom/echelon/pdf/prechelon_en.pdf) Makes for interesting reading if you're into that kinda thing. :blah

[c411Z]

what do you think of this bumper sticker i picked up

BUSH CHENEY 1984 war is peace...

[babarfloyd]

>Watch 1984 and draw your own conclusions.

I would also recommend reading the book. It goes much deeper than the movie does. The movie just seems to gloss over too many things.

And like AFN, I've had a hard time watching the news or believing anything the .gov says after reading the book and watching the movie.

[DampCold]

The key is to join the government and become part of the conspiracy. :) That way you know what is going on.

[kiwibank]

maybe if some of you actually read the book, you'd get the post

but i doubt that'll happen

thanks for the post afn.....very interesting and very topical, given the scope and style of american foreign policy at the moment... and also given the current relationship between president bush, australian prime minister john howard, and australian media magnate rupert murdoch.....we did orwell and 1984 at school way back...it was relevant and truthfull then and it`s fucking well relevant and truthfull now...even more so...

[DampCold]

echelon is real, and you have nothing to be afraid of. If you are having a "suspicious conversation", it is analyzed further, and in the event that it seems you are talking in code, or directly about a "plot", you are put under surveillance. A very slow percentage of calls made are listened to by humans.

Maybe there is little to worry about at present. However, it is the constant eroding of the constitutional rights, such as the right to privacy that leaves cause for concern. I am very concerned with anything that violates the strict interpretation of the constitution.

If the issue was just recording conversations held in public or surveillance cameras in public I would and don't have any issues with that.

[sicknote]

Maybe there is little to worry about at present. However, it is the constant eroding of the constitutional rights, such as the right to privacy that leaves cause for concern. I am very concerned with anything that violates the strict interpretation of the constitution.

Totally agree

[DampCold]

Totally agree

See, we need more people like us to hold intelligent debates on ideas. We could turn Zeropaid into a political debate forum...if we haven't already. I like you, you are good people. :)

[sicknote]

You know with all this news of P2P draconian laws coming into effect in america and europe it kind of reminds me of an old pathe news real.... the light of liberty going out across europe.....

Only this time Canada is holding the bright light of truth and freedom.

Canada is leading by example at the moment government by the people for the people

We can only hope that what at the moment is a civil offence in America and for most of the rest of us, Doesnt turn into a criminal offence like France.


Edit: Only this time Canada is holding the bright light of truth and freedom.
saw that in someone elses post dont know where

[notbob]

See, we need more people like us to hold intelligent debates on ideas. We could turn Zeropaid into a political debate forum...if we haven't already. I like you, you are good people. :)

good debates and agreeing are mutually exclusive

if you agree, there is no point in debating

[sicknote]

good debates and agreeing are mutually exclusive

if you agree, there is no point in debating

Im not complaining but please hold our conversation in context we were also holding a second discussion on the thread to do with demonstration about Iraq.

[Afn]

Read the book too, you'll love it and it goes even deeper. Also read Orwell's essays and journalism and other novels.Yes I have.


Everything he wrote about the power and control in society is timelessly true as well as specifically true of his era and our language and post war Britain.It seems more relevent today than it did in 1984.


His vision of Britain as being named Airstrip One and being just a strategic arm of the American power is more true every day. When the US or Nato bombs Libya or Iraq or the former Yugoslavia the bombers are flying from Airstrip One.After watching 1984, "Big Brother" could be love of state, or perhaps Orwell was refering to USA.

Some speculation is that orwell got the idea for 1984 while working at the BBC during WW2. His wife was a censor for the BBC. It is interesting to trace how ideas got started, the scary aspect of 1984 is his work is just as relevent if not more relevent today.

[Afn]

I've had a hard time watching the news or believing anything.
I have my training in mass communications, and I find more and more of the information presented as news is position, opinion, public relations and unobjective spin. When you start to question what is presented on television, the less and less you want to watch the medium.

P2P will replace mass communications. The question is, will it degrade into television?

I hope not.

[Afn]

If the issue was just recording conversations held in public or surveillance cameras in public I would and don't have any issues with that.
In a few years we will have the ablity to record every moment of our lives. The good news is that this will show patterns and generate new insite into the day to day activities of humans.

With accurate speech recognition, you could have a PDA give you a transcript of every conversation.

The bad news is that this technology makes a record of everything, good or bad.

Add wifi to this idea, and you could monitor your kid and get a text transcript in real time... or your boss could monitor you... or the state.

Gulp...

[random]

huh?

/me scratches his head

maybe i should go out and get the book hehe

[Munter99]

There isnt anything in this thread that hasnt been said 1000 before.
Theres no point reading 1 or 2 articles on something then thinking you can come to a p2p site thinking youre spreading definitive knowledge

[Ken17625]

The funny part is you RENTED, as in paid for the movie version of "1984".

Where does your money go? At least some of it will go to the store you rented it from, and it's a possibility it's owned by one of the mentioned. 1984 can be viewed as a method to sell a product; a medium of control of the masses through a message.

[Afn]

The funny part is you RENTED, as in paid for the movie version of "1984".

Where does your money go? At least some of it will go to the store you rented it from, and it's a possibility it's owned by one of the mentioned. 1984 can be viewed as a method to sell a product; a medium of control of the masses through a message.
But the message is controlled and censored, and in the extreme information is crafted to only promote the love of and loyalty to big brother, even if big brother is an S and M totalitarian socialist republic state. Media in the USA was local and regional in nature. Commercial interests were balanced with public affairs programming. Now advertisers brand everything, including public space with corporate logos and commerical propaganda.

Try watching a baseball game without commerial interruption while the game is played.

As for the rental service, DVD rentals are better than divx downloads that take a long time to download and may or may not be fake.

Long term there will be little money in producing media, except for the big 7 and a few independent producers that might make enough money to eat. The big 7 will control most of what is seen and heard.

With advances in technology few people will be needed to create media. Millions of jobs will be lost. The jobs that are lost are not coming back. Hollywood produces 400 to 500 movies a year. It is just a matter of time before the content creation system breaks down.

As for our current battle, we need to counter-attack the people and organizations that have the abllity to make decisive socialization practices and control the debate and process. This is the only way we can make change.

The real issue is good employment for everyone, and a baseline standard of living that let's people afford housing, children, cars and technology.

[Afn]

There isnt anything in this thread that hasnt been said 1,000 times before.

Then do something about it.