Does god exist?

[Jallexon2]

Your point rings true YWD67. I only used the catholics because they are currently the one under the media microscope. Other churches will follow. Look at what happened a few months ago in Milwaukee Wisconsin with that kid ending up dead because they were try to expel a demon out of him.
Here is the story: http://www.jsonline.com/search/results.asp?searchtype=web&Keywords=Milwaukee+kid+dead+at+church

[Whistler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiR
But, by evolving the way our brain allowed us to think, we where able to grow a 'god' or spiritual part of our brains. By being able to believe that there may be more to life then simply death, or even life afterwards, the anxiety of death was no long as apparent.

Interesting never heard the evolution part before but the bible teaches that all people do have an intuit understanding of god.
Ill get some references if anyone replys to this

[Jallexon2]

Whistler please post the references. Thanks.

[twodogs66]

God exists. But there is no creator being!

[GiR]

Interesting never heard the evolution part before but the bible teaches that all people do have an intuit understanding of god.

It can acctually already be scientifically prooven that there is a spirtual part of our brains, just as there are regions of our brain that control our ability for music, math, language, and many other things. The part that is most intriguing is that if any damage occurs to a specific region, then the related ability associated with that region is either lost or altered. This becomes very apparent during the usage of any drug.

One more semi-related thing. Has anyone ever thought of the idea of eternal life? don't you suppose you would EVENTUALLY get bored?

[ditto_n]

Gir the brain thing sounded like total bullshit, but yes, being no where near dieing age myself, eternal life makes sence. Myy grandma looked like she still had a ton of years in her befor my grandpa died of heart falure. After that she just kinda slowly faded away. Not understanding how quickly death comes leads me to belive she chose to die.

[Whistler]

all NIV (new international version)
2 Peter 3:1-7
1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Romans 2:14-15
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Romans 1:19-20
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

the third reference is most commonly mainly because the other two are offensive but they arrive at the same point

note: biblegateway.com is a good ressource for things like this

[YWD67]

Gir the brain thing sounded like total bullshit, but yes, being no where near dieing age myself, eternal life makes sence. Myy grandma looked like she still had a ton of years in her befor my grandpa died of heart falure. After that she just kinda slowly faded away. Not understanding how quickly death comes leads me to belive she chose to die.


Strange thing love bonding between couples. Sometimes the bond is so great that the couple become as one, physicaly and mentaly. When one dies the other feels incomplete and detached. It is very common for couples who have been together for a very long time, that when one dies the other follows with in a year or less.

[Dark Messenger]

There is no god. i made him up. he doesn't exist..i have to imagine him ...SO DO YOU! anything you have to makebelieve for DOES NOT EXIST..God is no different from SantaClaus, the ToothFairy or the EasterBunny.

[Jallexon2]

Thanks Whistler

[Rickio]

Or perhaps the real problem is we try to understand and fathom something that is non-existant. May be it is not a limited view of reality, but rather the view man has of reality is all there is and he is making more out of it then there realy is.
The inability to conceptualise something does not mean that it is beyond us.
2000yrs ago the conception of space travel was beyond human understanding now it is not. Just because at this moment we do not understand all the workings of something does not mean that it is beyond us due to inherent limitations placed on us by god. Rather it is a lack of knowledege and understanding at this time.

Perhaps it's not correct to use the word God as that seems to throw some people in a tizzy. But it's hard to argue that there is some sort of reality in existance. Semantics is a large part of any discussion.

The totality is a ever evolving and all aspects of this being are interdependent with each other. I think the highest reality is way beyond personal conceptions and the idea of a Godhead becomes absolutely silly at that point but at some points of evolution creations do emanate from creators. hmmm lol

Almost as if a new language must be created for certain types of discussions.

Just my musings lol ...

peace

[mountain_rage]

God does exist, yet I do believe his form is often mistaken. Many believe god is some immortal being with special powers and such. My belief is that he or they are not much different then ourselves. If your confused at this point let me explain.

Lately their have been a lot of projects involving artificial intelligence. As computers get faster, smaller and just better we are getting smarter and smarter AI. So lets say we finally create a robot that can think for itself. Would we not be its creator and god???What im getting at is I believe aliens are our creators, the little green men, a separate race not necessarily more intelligent then we are just more advanced technologically.


Before you judge me just think about it. If you take DNA you can see that our genes are very similar to that of the other animals inhabiting this planet. The only difference is the combination of the genes.This makes me think that all creatures where built from the same technology and information.

This also reminds me of programming for a computer. In programming we use much of the same code and copy it to differnt locations this creates a huge number of similar code interacting with differnt components. Also every gene starts with the same line of DNA and ends with a same line. The same way as in programming you start with the same command everytime and end with a same command everytime. In both these examples it splits appart the differn't components. The similarities are uncanny. The only flaw I can see to this is that we cannot build something that can grow and modify its shape on its own, although I do believe we will eventually figure it out its just a matter of time.

If you still don't believe me just challenge me il be glad to deffend myself. Theres always fun in a good disscussion. In reality you could have hard evidence against this if so id love to hear your oppinion.

[tamarisk]

Well assuming aliens created us, there is a problem, who created the aliens? and who created genes in the first place?

There has to be a start from somewhere

[DudeAsInCool]

God exists if you want him to exist...

[nasrules]

Well assuming aliens created us, there is a problem, who created the aliens? and who created genes in the first place?

There has to be a start from somewhere

Who says anything created us?!

[shawners]

who says anything cant come down to destroy us.

[Gregory_JJ]

I have been following this tread and been wondering if anyboy here ever read the Comic series "Preacher" from the "adult'" line of DC comics? If so what do you think?

[nasrules]

Before you judge me just think about it. If you take DNA you can see that our genes are very similar to that of the other animals inhabiting this planet. The only differnce is the combination of the genes.This makes me think that all creatures where built from the same technology and information.

I have to say I can see the logic in your argument and I find it much more likely that we were created by little green men than some supreme being. However...

If we turn to science for a moment, we see that the reason that all DNA is relatively similar is due to evolution. For example, we share 98% of our genes with apes. People often mistakenly think that this is because we evolved from apes, while in reality it's due to our sharing an ancestor.

I don't know the specifics of genetics or evolution (my understanding of the subject is based totally on my recent study of it in my GCSEs and through TV) but it seems logical to me that we all evolved from a very small group of different lifeforms - maybe all conscious beings have a common ancestor, maybe it's more specific than that. However, the point is that it just all fits.

We all know that thousands of years ago (the majority at least) couldn't comprehend how we came to be - the idea that we were created is the easy answer, the same as 'the weather is stormy because God is angry at us'. As our understanding of the earth, life, evolution and the universe has increased, so sensible and evidence-based theories have been accepted.

I think that's my thing about religion - with science all accepted theories are based on evidence that we can see here and now, not based on what some people wrote a couple of millenia ago.

As you said, if anyone wishes to challenge my views, please do so. If you think you can improve my understanding of religion, I'd like to hear what you have to say :bling

[Dark Messenger]

I have denied God twice already...I need only do it one more time to be a complete Dick..or Peter if you will...and though I deny/denied him with my mouth...these typed words...my spirit decrees his existence.

-Tim

[Miniver]

god is...evolution

[mountain_rage]

nasrules If its true that we all originated from the same being is it not possible we are bassed off one creatures own DNA. What I mean in the creation of our race could it be that every being on the world had a cingular being as a example to basse all others upon. Another theory is that 1 being was placed on the eart to latter evolve into every being we have through programming. Much like our AI it could be a AI sort for the physical bodies. For us to be able to accomplish this all that would be needed is the developement of AI and better manipulation or matter.

Another reason also why is that we arn't perfect and if we were created by another being this unperfectness would make sense much like windows op.

[Melete667]

If there is a god....fuck 'em.

[nasrules]

nasrules If its true that we all originated from the same being is it not possible we are bassed off one creatures own DNA.

Yes, exactly, that's my point. However, their is a lot of evidence to back up the theories of evolution etc, while there's none to show that we were created by aliens.

[smokingbevel]

Well assuming aliens created us, there is a problem, who created the aliens? and who created genes in the first place?

There has to be a start from somewhereAlthough the thread, by design, is temporal and linear, is there an implication that the discussion on omnipotent beings should be similarly limited to the constraints of traditional time.
Are the bounds of time consistent throughout the universe?
I am not asserting that time is little more than a quantum tool which protects fragile minds of living beings from lunacy. I'm also not concretely stating, that I'm my own grandpa, ancestors/descendants of the human race created god(s), and god(s) created members of the human race. So, by no means, am I concluding that there are some attributes shared between god(s) and human beings due to some ludicrous, maddening, elliptical creation chain. Furthermore, the supposed utterances from divine entities, like the sloppily quoted "I am the alpha and the omega", only strength arguments against such completely ridiculous ponderings.

[YWD67]

Perhaps time is one of those things which we believe are beyond our ability to transverse because at this time we have no valid concept of it. In future though we may aquire the knowledge to do so. This idea offers up all kinds of paradoxs of exixtance, etc. You know like if one was to go back in time and meet ones self just before they left on there trip. If you did that why did you not meet yourself just before you left. This calls in to question that if you are capable of time travel is it not possible to exist in all three time frames at once.(past, present,and future). I had a paper by Einstein on this suject i downloaded a few months ago but have since deleted it. Well that is getting a little bit off topic. Back to the ablitly to exist in all three time frames at once. If there was anykind of supreme being, god, divine force, would that not be the place that he would exist. It would allow him/her/it/what, the perfect vantage point of this existannce. As for going back in the past and being your own grandfather. That was done by Philp Frye when he went back to Rosewell in the late 40's. he knocked up his own grandmother and sired his own father. Some, if not most of you know good old Phil. He works for the Galaxy Epress Delivery service in the 31st centuray. (A.K.A Futurama)

Well if this thread has gone on for a long time and had 100's of postings. How many can we get with a time paradox thread?

[nasrules]

Well, see, I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as time as we know it. We can't manipulate it because it simply isn't possible to manipulate something that doesn't exist. It's merely something created by society to make life, explanations, understanding and productivity greater.

However, I really don't know anything about the subject - that's just my uneducated personal take on it.

[Rickio]

Just remembering some ancient texts I read a long while back. The Mahabharata to be exact. According to the ancient mystics. God creates and destroys worlds endlessly and there is a God but infinately stranger (according to the texts , not my opinion) there is a personality of the Godhead but beyond that there is what is called the impersonal God which is without form.

Even according to our limited history we see civilizations rise and fall and so it is with worlds which can also be called realities. As according to the texts, with each inhalation of God everything dissappears and with ever exhalation new worlds come into being. Now these are moments for God but for man each creation appears to be infinate. Also remember that according to the texts , that God is not the ultimate reality as we are speaking personality of the Godhead and there is the infinate formless God beyond that.

peace

[mountain_rage]

Their is some possible evidence that aliens have been here though, many acient cultures have hiroglyphs that resemble space ships or point to the sky. Also many religions look to the sky and stars for some reason perhaps pointing to our creator from above. Its also quite possible that they would not want evidence that they were here.

[Rickio]

Their is some possible evidence that aliens have been here though, many acient cultures have hiroglyphs that resemble space ships or point to the sky. Also many religions look to the sky and stars for some reason perhaps pointing to our creator from above. Its also quite possible that they would not want evidence that they were here.

Zacharia Sitchkin has written about about that, and I may have mispelled his name. He has done extensive research on ancient babalonyion writings which were preserved on clay tablets etc. Basicly the old texts indicate what you are discussing.

You might check his books out.

peace

[GiR]

Regaurdless of whether or not there IS a god. There will always be believers of a god. 2 Reasons.

1. We're all hardwired to believe in some sort of spiritual possibility.
2. You can't dis-proove something that does NOT ACCTUALLY exist.

[Whistler]

Back to the ablitly to exist in all three time frames at once. If there was anykind of supreme being, god, divine force, would that not be the place that he would exist. It would allow him/her/it/what, the perfect vantage point of this existannce.


Yup.
omnipotence - he can do anything.
omniscience - he knows everything.
omnipresence - he is everywhere.
omnitemporal? - he is not bound by time.
if you believe these to be true it sort of means theres no way we could fathom what were trying to discuss here. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try if He made us then He'd want us to know/try to understand Him

[TheBlackSnow]

ok, you can kill me... but I never will say "God doesn't exist". I'm sure, and I will never change my opinion.

[Dark Messenger]

for me...HE does..and always will..i hope this is the really last post i have to make in this thread.

-Tim

[begoodbebad]

This is to all the people who do believe in God (and anyone else who is willing to really test their ability to be open minded) but is bewildered by contradiction or inconsistencies or philosophies or sectarian differences.

There is (at least) one common factor in all religions: It is that the religion describes the existence of God and sets out rules and regulations, restrictions, allowances, methods, procedures, purpose, benefit etc. What you have here is the walk through guide from the manufacturer (whether the manufacturer be God or is Human Consciousness is another thing...). The religions invariably describe how to behave, what is required of us, how to approach God (sometimes via his messenger, son or other agent) and what might happen if the process is followed. As many of the results of these processes are in the realm of God realization, self realization, goodness, humility, truthfulness, peacefulness, they can be difficult to objectively measure. If you really want to find out if this process is true you have to try it for yourself. You can only test it by doing it. You can only do it by being guided through the process by someone else who knows it and is some way along. The process is invariably given by God. If you make your own process or modify the process you will not be in a position to criticise if it doesn't deliver. Whatever your religion you should follow its laws and guidance strictly and faithfully and you will see the results for yourself and actually be in a position to make an informed decision. It might be an awful lot harder than you imagine, it might be easier.

I'm not a Christian but I was brought up in that culture. Here's something from the Bible on the subject:

If you love Me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15
If a man loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:2
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:9-11
You'll find almost identical statements in all religions.

And on the subject of tolerance for those who don't share your beliefs (or maybe any belief):

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that you? For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:32-33

[begoodbebad]

Well, see, I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as time as we know it. We can't manipulate it because it simply isn't possible to manipulate something that doesn't exist. It's merely something created by society to make life, explanations, understanding and productivity greater.

However, I really don't know anything about the subject - that's just my uneducated personal take on it.
So did you come up with this idea yesterday or tomorrow?

[nasrules]

Well, exactly. In my (and society's) mind, I've thought that for a few years (when I actually first thought about the concept). In reality...well, I don't know. See my point?

[notbob]

If you love Me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15
If a man loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and will come to him and make our home with him. John 14:2
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:9-11
You'll find almost identical statements in all religions.

And on the subject of tolerance for those who don't share your beliefs (or maybe any belief):

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that you? For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:32-33


in christian religions maybe (though some forego the top 10 list for jesus' teachings in the sermon on the mount aka "beattitudes"

most religions have a "golden rule", but not all have commandments and strict rules

there is hindi, which has many gods, and very little in common with christianity or other judaistic based faiths

also buddhism, shintoism, taoism which have little or nothing in common with judeo/christian religion

p.s. if you really want to see how the bible deals with tolerance, check leviticus, and deuteronomy and see stuff like "kill all male prisoners of war"(Dt 20:13)

or "they are an abomination"(Lv everywhere, gays, people who eat snails, people with tatoos, odd hairstyles, whatever)

or "No Ammonite or Moabite may be admitted to the congregation of Yahweh"(Dt 23)

the best stuff is where if you are at war and crap in your camp god will hate you (Dt 23:9)

[notbob]

lol, notbob........i luv ya man.....


regarding all of those OT examples..........yes, there were some weird laws during the Mosaic Law, but the point of all them was that they were a shadow and type of the new things coming under the NT..

'For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things.." (Heb 10:1)

Alot of the times, those weird and extreme laws represented spiritual things that happened with Christ's death and resurrection.

A good site on 'types and shadows' is http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/jpittman/SHADOW.HTM this document mainly refers to the tabernacle and offerings, and such......but the points it provides can be equally applied to the Law.

i realize most modern christians cite that jesus said those laws were obsolete, but that doesn't stop them from picking and choosing certain ones (like the gay guy abomination one) to quote

the way i see it, is if you have a fundamentalist sect that takes the bible as truth, you can't just pick which truth you like (sort of the point i try to make)

[RACKnRAIL]

the way i see it, is if you have a fundamentalist sect that takes the bible as truth, you can't just pick which truth you like (sort of the point i try to make)
That's how cults are started. These spiritual leaders, as they call themselves, interpret the truth as they see fit.

[YWD67]

for me...HE does..and always will..i hope this is the really last post i have to make in this thread.

-Tim

The only two who know for sure are you and your god.

[YWD67]

Their is some possible evidence that aliens have been here though, many acient cultures have hiroglyphs that resemble space ships or point to the sky. Also many religions look to the sky and stars for some reason perhaps pointing to our creator from above. Its also quite possible that they would not want evidence that they were here.

Back in the mid 70's there were several books and a movie called Chariots of the god's by a Dutch writer named Eric Von Dankiean who covered much of the same.

[PiRaNeTuS]

i realize most modern christians cite that jesus said those laws were obsolete, but that doesn't stop them from picking and choosing certain ones (like the gay guy abomination one) to quote

the way i see it, is if you have a fundamentalist sect that takes the bible as truth, you can't just pick which truth you like (sort of the point i try to make)
That is true what you say. It is also wrong (not what you're saying...the fact that people do that is wrong). People have used various scriptures in the Bible to push their agendas on others for centuries. That doesn't mean, however, that the Bible is wrong or full of BS. "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"......just because people in the past have abused truths presented in the bible, or said things were truths when they weren't.......doesn't mean the bible doesn't contain truth.

As far as the homosexual thing, Jesus never did say it was wrong or right. However, the early apostles did (Paul, etc) and said that homosexuality is an abomination. That is why I believe that it is. But, true to what you are saying, some people stop right there. I don't....adultery, fornication, lust, etc are abominations as well. I believe they are all equally wrong and sinful.

But I agree with what you are saying. If so many people are adamant about amending the constitution to outlaw homosexual marriage, would they be willing also to amend it to outlaw things like adultery, gambling, porn, etc? (which destroy marriages faster and violate the 'sanctity' of marriage much more than two men or women down the street getting married). I don't think they would. And that is where the hypocrisy is and where people pick and choose what bible verse they want to believe. and that's wrong.

[shawners]

" We create babys.. flowers grow and create seeds that spread.. so in all life their is something other that creates things.."

Well then to continue that form of logic then there must be something that created the creator, and a creator for the creator of the creator etc..............infinity. As for the variation of human life on this planet, enviorment, geographical bounderys and barriers. Isolation of races and culture do to the afformentioned items have played in the diverse cultures of people. Climate effects physical traits of people. Eons of exporsure to intense sun and heat in tropical and desert areas gave rise to the evololution of darker and darker skin pigments to block out excessive uv radiation that damaged those of light skin.

..".If we evolved millions of years ago, wouldnt TV's.. and computers been developed by the dawn of 1000 a.d?? Why in the last 100 years we made so much technical milestone".(Quote)

The answer to that one is going to really make some angery. The reason for such a boom in the advance of tech in the last 100yrs, that is the time that science as a whole finlay stopped using the bible to rationalize many formes of science,(biology, geology,astronomey,etc). Up to that time religion held considerable sway over science. Case in point, Many scientist were marked as heritid and non-believers and were threatend with excommunication and imprisonment unless they recant the idea that the earth rotated around the sun. Religious leaders of that time (around the 16th and 17th centuries held that god had placed the earth at the center of the universe not the sun. Any who believed other wise were teaching the laws of satan. There were actualy people appointed by the church who's only job was to make sure that any teachings to the public did not have any ideas or theroies that might be in conflict with the bible. Math, Astronemy, and geology were some of the most targeted forms of science handcuffed by religion in just what could be taught or labled as scientic fact. Once science through off the yoke of religious censorship and persicution, it rapidly advance. That is why man went form KittyHawk and then to the moon in one century. However it would appear that we have not learned by our mistakes so we must relive them. IN the last 20 yrs there has been strong effort to turn back the advances of scientific therories and facts. Evolution, being the strongest. Astronomey, is being attacked because the idea of the big bang goes against the 6 day creation theory of the bible.

Lastly there has been more heartless acts of violence, murder,toruter and war in the name of someone's god then any other cause the last 5000yrs.

Didnt scientist create machines of war, nukes, bombs, tanks, nuclear bomb.. Guns and such.. We use religion, but we use what science developed for us then our understanding of a greater good.

But if no one believed in God, would america exist today or anything?? religion let people have courage to go here. And i doubt eons of sun exposure or anything can transform skin color since it goes down to genetics.. Black man has a white wife, genetics will make that baby black and being part white, will give it some white traits..
Think of Science as this.. Just out of no where their was just a big bang.. IT shot all the planets and stars to a sertain point.. then it just started spinning around a sun which gives us the right amount of lite.. And we just happen to have gravity here that keeps us on the ground, and a atmosphere to protect us.. and the earth rotates so all the sides of planet excent north and south parts get the most sun.. Life just began.. and everything thats created just is here just because.. Spider has purpose in life as rats do.. as well as bugs and insects.. their is animals to produce things and earth gives us food.. Wouldnt it be coincidence that it just all happened that way, so perfectly and neatly.. And if anyone knows the truth about anything is that, people may claim things for God, such as war.. But we have the ability to choose not to fight, choose to live together, choose to believe that God would want us to do it.. Churches and religion has done so much good but its never mentioned.. ALot of people come from different religions.. but when they kill somebody, its on their hands. We arent meant to know everything cause we wouldnt really be able to function.

My life is better because i believe their is a God, i prayed for a wonderful wife and got lucky and married at 23.. I prayed for a great job to support us.. have one, prayed to get a beautiful house.. got it last year.. So my prayers of having a child soon will be answered =)

[begoodbebad]

in christian religions maybe (though some forego the top 10 list for jesus' teachings in the sermon on the mount aka "beattitudes"

most religions have a "golden rule", but not all have commandments and strict rules

there is hindi, which has many gods, and very little in common with christianity or other judaistic based faiths

also buddhism, shintoism, taoism which have little or nothing in common with judeo/christian religion

p.s. if you really want to see how the bible deals with tolerance, check leviticus, and deuteronomy and see stuff like "kill all male prisoners of war"(Dt 20:13)

or "they are an abomination"(Lv everywhere, gays, people who eat snails, people with tatoos, odd hairstyles, whatever)

or "No Ammonite or Moabite may be admitted to the congregation of Yahweh"(Dt 23)

the best stuff is where if you are at war and crap in your camp god will hate you (Dt 23:9)Hindu is more a broad range of religions with common beliefs than a single religion. You will find monotheistic groups that are labelled Hindu but do not consider themselves "Hindu" for the word is so broad it has little real meaning. You will also find if you look closely that most of the "gods" are demi gods or other empowered beings and there is an acceptance that there is a Supreme Personality who cannot be equalled or excelled....naturally there may be some dispute over who that personality is, but the answer is available to anyone who cares to find out. You will also find, in Bhagavad Gita for example, that people are required to adhere many kinds of rules and regulations and parts of it describes processes for attaining self realization and the reader is (or should be) left in no doubt that the path is a narrow one. People who go through the processes of renunciation make vows of celibacy, vegetarianism, giving up of intoxication, giving up gambling....all kinds of rules apply even down to points of etiquette and there are extensive literatures supporting this. The whole guru/disciple relationship is based on acceptance of higher authority and it is exactly the relationship of the Chrsitian disciples to Jesus Christ.

And as far as Christ's teaching regarding the law...he had a lot to say, often quoting or referring to the law.


Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


My actual point was: If you assume God exists and you approach God or his representative and ask how to live and how to act it is rather stupid not to take the instruction seriously and even more stupid to interpret it to one's own ends or to remanufacture the process to make it more palatable. If God exists I think we can give him some credit for being cleverer than us. If he offers plain instruction then it should be accepted in plain terms, in full, and without reservation.



Personally I don't follow any religion but I can't claim it's not true either. But I get very bored of people who think all religions are the same...{[not @you notbob, I understood your point was the opposite to this]} though as I stated they all have some common themes, they're not. And I have no time for people who wilfully refuse the plainest and simplest instruction from the God they claim to obey or love or worship. Some things are difficult to do and people try and fail and that's to be expected and not criticized, but to claim to be God fearing but act according to one's whims and then make a justification or philosophy or interpretation to support this is actually hypocrisy and ultimately atheism anyway.

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

Didnt scientist create machines of war, nukes, bombs, tanks, nuclear bomb.. Guns and such.. We use religion, but we use what science developed for us then our understanding of a greater good.
Religion was killing millions well before "scientists" created these machines you speak of. The righteous religious later hired these scientists to create the machines to become more efficient at killing the infidels.


But if no one believed in God, would america exist today or anything?? religion let people have courage to go here. And i doubt eons of sun exposure or anything can transform skin color since it goes down to genetics.. Black man has a white wife, genetics will make that baby black and being part white, will give it some white traits..
Think of Science as this.. Just out of no where their was just a big bang.. IT shot all the planets and stars to a sertain point.. then it just started spinning around a sun which gives us the right amount of lite.. And we just happen to have gravity here that keeps us on the ground, and a atmosphere to protect us.. and the earth rotates so all the sides of planet excent north and south parts get the most sun.. Life just began.. and everything thats created just is here just because.. Spider has purpose in life as rats do.. as well as bugs and insects.. their is animals to produce things and earth gives us food.. Wouldnt it be coincidence that it just all happened that way, so perfectly and neatly.. And if anyone knows the truth about anything is that, people may claim things for God, such as war.. But we have the ability to choose not to fight, choose to live together, choose to believe that God would want us to do it.. Churches and religion has done so much good but its never mentioned.. ALot of people come from different religions.. but when they kill somebody, its on their hands. We arent meant to know everything cause we wouldnt really be able to function.
America never needed goD to exist. It was here well before christianity claimed it. Religion as it is known today is an invader to this land, as well as many others. Did I need to be born "American?" No. I could have been someplace else and file-shared just fine. This paragraph is out-of-context with the topic and should have been devoted to the thread you quoted in your post.


My life is better because I believe their is a God, i prayed for a wonderful wife and got lucky and married at 23.. I prayed for a great job to support us.. have one, prayed to get a beautiful house.. got it last year.. So my prayers of having a child soon will be answered =)
It is a good thing that you have a better life for what u believe in. This doesn't mean it is for everyone or that they will suffer because they do not share the same belief as you. This circular logic is getting quite old.

Now here is something that may raise an eyebrow:

Remarks to the Commonwealth Club by Michael Crichton (http://www.transhumanism.org/pipermail/wta-politics/2003-December/001443.html)

[Dark Messenger]

As far as the homosexual thing, Jesus never did say it was wrong or right. However, the early apostles did (Paul, etc) and said that homosexuality is an abomination. That is why I believe that it is. But, true to what you are saying, some people stop right there. I don't....adultery, fornication, lust, etc are abominations as well. I believe they are all equally wrong and sinful.




Jesuses take on homosexuals:

"Get Thee Behind Me, Satan!"

I think that pretty much seys it all..now Janet999 please close this thread..i think we've pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that god may or may not exist.

[Krell]

Well . . . it went better than the LAST big religion debate :D


.

[Whistler]

Jesuses take on homosexuals:

"Get Thee Behind Me, Satan!"



This is a famous quote from matt 16:23 equivalently mark 8:33 where Peter rebuked Jesus for saying he will die soon (on the cross) and then Jesus rebukes Peter for not believeing him.

I realise, Dark Messenger, that you probably don't mean Jesus said this about homosexuals directly but from the way you said it the layman might get that impression.

[edit:] oh I get it now... let no one say im the sharpest bulb in the drawer!

[notbob]

This is a famous quote from matt 16:23 equivalently mark 8:33 where Peter rebuked Jesus for saying he will die soon (on the cross) and then Jesus rebukes Peter for not believeing him.

I realise, Dark Messenger, that you probably don't mean Jesus said this about homosexuals directly but from the way you said it the layman might get that impression.

actually, i'm pretty sure the implication is that jesus is taking satan's wang, but i'm sure dm is flattered that you took their post seriously

i'm a bit of a sarcasm buff, and i'm pretty sure their post was satirical

[nasrules]

As far as the homosexual thing, Jesus never did say it was wrong or right. However, the early apostles did (Paul, etc) and said that homosexuality is an abomination. That is why I believe that it is. But, true to what you are saying, some people stop right there. I don't....adultery, fornication, lust, etc are abominations as well. I believe they are all equally wrong and sinful.

Personally, I've always found the idea that the bible takes a very negative stance on homosexuality a bit odd.

If God and Jesus love us all, as we are often led to believe, then why would a feeling that does not occur of free will be a sin? It really doesn't make sense.

[Gregory_JJ]

Good one :D

[WE_DELIVER]

I don't think this thread should be closed!!!! This is an interesting discussion and is going really well.

[RACKnRAIL]

discussion is going really well.

LOL! That's a matter of opinion....

[PiRaNeTuS]

Personally, I've always found the idea that the bible takes a very negative stance on homosexuality a bit odd.

If God and Jesus love us all, as we are often led to believe, then why would a feeling that does not occur of free will be a sin? It really doesn't make sense.

That is very debatable. The 'fact' that homosexuals are born that way has not been proven. And I don't think it ever will. I don't believe that homosexuals are born that way. I believe that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals.

"God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." God's first commandments to mankind, thousands of years before Jesus came, thousands of years before Moses and the 10 commandments....the first commandments were to be "fruitful and multiply." And since homosexuals cannot be fruitful or multiply, they are breaking one of the very core commandments that God gave to man. Now, some have taken that same verse and, just like I said above, abused it, and took it out of context, and said that if you are unable to have children then you are cursed by God. Particularly, women were told this when they were barren many times. That was wrong. Because that is not what that verse is saying or what God was implying. Infertile women are born that way. Or get that way through some course of disease or whatever. They don't choose to be infertile. Homosexuals, on the other hand, choose to be in rebellion toward natural desires and break the very fundamental core of our civiliation. If everyone became homosexual today, the human race would be extinct in about 100 years. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, but in 'science', what evolutionary advantage does homosexuality have? The point of evolution and natural selection is the survival of a species and the survival of the fittest. Homosexuals do not survive, since they cannot reproduce. So why would the 'god' Evolution create homosexuals if they have no purpose genetically?

Of course, all of my points are based on the evidence and my beliefs that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. In a year, or two years, or twenty years, or however long it takes for science to accurately tell if they are born that way or not.....well then, if they are 100% proven to be born that way, then yes, it wouldn't make sense and I would have to reevalute some of my beliefs.

[mountain_rage]

For all those that are cristian and said homosexuality is wrong. Priest can't marry because they are married to god right. To my understanding according to the bible god is a man. So doesn't that mean priests are all married to a man? Thats right. Yes god is a man if you take adam and eve story. They built the man from the image of god and from the mans rib they built woman. Alright so the way I see it all priest and god himself are homosexuals.

[RACKnRAIL]

"God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
I laugh everytime I hear the above quote. There are more scientific reasons as well. Much to everyone's surprise, anal sex is not natural. There is much scientific evidence that supports this statement. I am not taking sides one way or the other; I'm merely stating a fact. I myself don't believe god intended us to be having anal sex or you'd have a vagina where your ass is right now. I do have a few gay friends though and consider myself tolerant of their lifestyle, but that's as far as I go. No offence to anyone that enjoys anal sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_sex#Overview

[wingnut2600]

That is very debatable. The 'fact' that homosexuals are born that way has not been proven. And I don't think it ever will. I don't believe that homosexuals are born that way. I believe that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals.

I don't think that any proof of a biological basis of homosexuality would ever be accepted by the religious; if so, their hate and intolerance would not be justified.

A simple scientific technique to determine if there is a biological basis for a human behavior is to look at other animals with less-developed frontal cortices and see if this behavior is present. It is.

Animals of all sorts have homosexuality present in their populations. I can see an argument by those that do not believe in evolution, saying that animals are lower than man and unrelated, or an argument by those religious sorts that believe in evolution saying that homosexuals are like animals. I have always wondered why the intense antipathy that religious sorts feel for homosexuals... isn't the idea of a religion to accept everyone? Love your brother and all that?

I don't think that anyone would voluntarily choose to be part of a group that is derogated as such and are treated with such hateful intolerance.

[Jallexon2]

FYI: Since this thread seems to me to have started talking about sex take a look at Romans 1 18 - 32 My thoughts are this: Due Penalty (which applies to both straight and non straight people as seen through out the bible as a whole this is just the first time to my knowledge that the term Due Penalty is used and is used in regards to a specific group of people.) Due Penalty could be this shortened life, illness, eternity in Hell, and any number of things and ill wills one can think of.
Also "V28: Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." One interpretation and their maybe others is that the depraved mind is Satin, or uncontrolled urges and impulses within the human being. Also because God respects the free will he gave his creation he lets whatever consequence of their actions befall them. It's like if a child's parents told him not to touch a hot stove. But he exercised his free will and decided to go against his parents orders. What happened, well the due penalty for violating his parents orders. A burned hand, pain, inability to use that hand for a time.

Here is a link to romans 1 18 - 32 NIV: http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=romans&version=NIV

[aqlo]

Yeah whenever I see anybody wearing satin it depraves my mind for sure. Especially short shorts.

Meanwhile, back on the subject of what kinds of sex are "natural", let's visit an actual nature park and see for ourselves:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=1&u=/nm/20040422/od_nm/rhino_dc



Sharka, a two-ton white rhino, got amorous with Dave Alsop's car when he stopped with three friends to take pictures of the animal mating with his partner Trixie at the West Midland Safari Park.

The 12-year-old rhino tried to mount the Renault Laguna from the side, denting the doors and ripping off the wing mirrors before Dave drove away with a puffing Sharka in pursuit.

"He was a big boy and obviously aroused," Alsop told the Sun newspaper on Thursday. "He sidled up against us. The next thing I know he's banging away at the car and it's rocking like hell."

[wingnut2600]

Why the Bible? Why not The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn or The Great Gatsby? At least both of those books are actually good. It seems to me as if people's reliance upon the "good book" is not proof in and of itself and leads towards weak arguments based upon something that neither side can agree upon. I personally consider it to be a work of fiction, philosophy and social dogma, not a piece of reference literature, unless you are trying to state what it means, but that does not mean that it applies to the real world. Therefore, any argument based upon the "good book" is going to be thrown away by anyone that does not believe in your "God."

I would not quote Steinbeck or Twain, as people do the Bible, and say that their symbolic references mean that you should change your life (although both are more relevant to the real world).

[PiRaNeTuS]

I don't think that any proof of a biological basis of homosexuality would ever be accepted by the religious; if so, their hate and intolerance would not be justified.

A simple scientific technique to determine if there is a biological basis for a human behavior is to look at other animals with less-developed frontal cortices and see if this behavior is present. It is.

Animals of all sorts have homosexuality present in their populations. I can see an argument by those that do not believe in evolution, saying that animals are lower than man and unrelated, or an argument by those religious sorts that believe in evolution saying that homosexuals are like animals. I have always wondered why the intense antipathy that religious sorts feel for homosexuals... isn't the idea of a religion to accept everyone? Love your brother and all that?

I don't think that anyone would voluntarily choose to be part of a group that is derogated as such and are treated with such hateful intolerance.

Hate and intolerance is wrong. I do not hate homosexuals. I do, however, disaprove of their lifestyle. That doesn't mean I hate them. I have a few friends that are homosexuals, just like I have friends that are addicted to drugs, friends that are pregnant and having sex outside of marriage, etc. They are all my friends. I do not hate any of them. But that still doesn't mean I agree with what they are doing. Again, the people that don't care about an unmarried man and woman having sex, and yet adamantatly against homosexuals having sex, is wrong. They are both sins and should both be treated as such.

And no, animals of all sorts do not have homosexuality evident. There are only a few limited amount of species where this has been evident, and even then, it has been on a very limited scale. Homosexuality is is not that much present in the animal kingdoms.

And yes, the point of Christianity is to accept everyone and love everyone. But that doesn't mean that you accept their actions or approve of their behavior. Jesus spoke about loving your enemies....and everyone else as yourself. So, yes Jesus was love. Yet, Jesus also rebuked people who were wrong, took a whip and beat priests who were selling things in the temple, as well as other things that alot of people wouldn't consider as being 'love.' But, it was. Sometimes, love is tough.

If you have a child that is playing in the street....or maybe even a teen that is stringed out on coke. If you tell that child to get out of the street, or that youth to stop doing drugs and you try to help him.....then that child says you hate them, and stuff like you don't understand, you don't give them freedom, whatever. Are you then being intolerant? No, because you love them to help them. Are you being intolerant when you find it disgusting when a man has sex with a 9 year old? Or how about a man having sex with an animal? I find both disgusting and unnatural, disturbing, and I would like for them to get help with whatever problems they have to commit those things. I don't hate them though, even though they do those acts. I feel the same way towards homosexuals.

[WE_DELIVER]

First of all, I think that it should be mentioned that not all homosexuals believe in the religion that you do, in the same god, or in any religion at all. So they should not have to follow religious rules unless the choose to follow that religion.

Second homosexuals do contribute to the evolution of the human race. Evolution is not comprised of only procreation, but also includes technological, mental, emotional, and social advances. There is no reason a homosexual can not partake in those advances.

For example, a homosexual could invent something, or a homosexual couple can parent a child who would otherwise end up wasting his life in a foster home or something similar.
You can actually view homosexuals as some that have emotionally/socially evolved beyond heterosexuals in such a way that they can find love with the same sex while we can't. Because if talk about procreation, technically it's all "bam bam, thank you maam", while marrige and other groups are social technology that we have created for survival and further creation.

[jona100]

"Sorry but God exists, otherwise how would certain "miracles" be explained, when not even the scientific community can explain it"

Just because science cannot explain something currently, it does not mean it is an act of God, science is simply not advanced enough yet, science justs needs time.

Many things that science couldn't explain have been thought to be acts of god, over the years science has simply had the time to work how it was done, and they are now universally regarded as not acts of god.

Every miracle given time, can be exlpained.

[nasrules]

That is very debatable. The 'fact' that homosexuals are born that way has not been proven. And I don't think it ever will. I don't believe that homosexuals are born that way. I believe that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals.

"God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." God's first commandments to mankind, thousands of years before Jesus came, thousands of years before Moses and the 10 commandments....the first commandments were to be "fruitful and multiply." And since homosexuals cannot be fruitful or multiply, they are breaking one of the very core commandments that God gave to man. Now, some have taken that same verse and, just like I said above, abused it, and took it out of context, and said that if you are unable to have children then you are cursed by God. Particularly, women were told this when they were barren many times. That was wrong. Because that is not what that verse is saying or what God was implying. Infertile women are born that way. Or get that way through some course of disease or whatever. They don't choose to be infertile. Homosexuals, on the other hand, choose to be in rebellion toward natural desires and break the very fundamental core of our civiliation. If everyone became homosexual today, the human race would be extinct in about 100 years. Even if you don't believe in Christianity, but in 'science', what evolutionary advantage does homosexuality have? The point of evolution and natural selection is the survival of a species and the survival of the fittest. Homosexuals do not survive, since they cannot reproduce. So why would the 'god' Evolution create homosexuals if they have no purpose genetically?

Of course, all of my points are based on the evidence and my beliefs that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. In a year, or two years, or twenty years, or however long it takes for science to accurately tell if they are born that way or not.....well then, if they are 100% proven to be born that way, then yes, it wouldn't make sense and I would have to reevalute some of my beliefs.

Homosexuality has no evolutionary advantage, that's not what I'm saying. I'm also not saying that God created homosexuals - homosexuality is (mostly) due to mutated DNA, as are bisexuality, transexuality and intersexuality.

Now, should you at any point accept that people other than heterosexuals are not that way out of choice, you may argue that this is because the devil has affected these people and I can't argue with you on that - it's purely your religious belief and has no evidence to back it up (as far as I know). Of course, I'm not saying you would necessarily make that argument, but it's a possibility.

Anyway, back to the point - that being that you believe that homosexuals are that way because they choose to be. Personally, I have to disagree - there are a large number of homosexuals who are 'high up' in society, very successful and popular.

There is no proof either way on this subject (although that is partly due to the scientific community's ignorance of psychology), so it comes down to a personal decision. But, homosexuals are discriminated against and, in my opinion, those who discriminate against homosexuals are no better than Hitler himself. If you believe that they are sinning, let God be the judge of that - they will pay in the after-life.

[PiRaNeTuS]

Homosexuality has no evolutionary advantage, that's not what I'm saying. I'm also not saying that God created homosexuals - homosexuality is (mostly) due to mutated DNA, as are bisexuality, transexuality and intersexuality.

It is not proven that homosexuality is due to mutated DNA at all.

Now, should you at any point accept that people other than heterosexuals are not that way out of choice, you may argue that this is because the devil has affected these people and I can't argue with you on that - it's purely your religious belief and has no evidence to back it up (as far as I know). Of course, I'm not saying you would necessarily make that argument, but it's a possibility.

I do believe that satan has some influence on a person's decision to be homosexual. I don't think that satan makes someone homosexual. I also think that a person's experiences help to make a person make that decision. For example, children that are sexually abused are more likely to grow up and become child molestors themselves, homosexuals, or other perverted sexual orientations, than a child growing up that is not exposed to that type of sexual violence. (Note, I am not saying that homosexuals are the same thing as child molestors...I do believe that child molesters should go to jail and such...I don't think that homosexuals should go to jail...I only mean that I think that homosexuals are engaged in perverted sexual acts, similiar to child molesters.)

Anyway, back to the point - that being that you believe that homosexuals are that way because they choose to be. Personally, I have to disagree - there are a large number of homosexuals who are 'high up' in society, very successful and popular.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I never said or implied that homosexuals are low in society or not successful. I like the works of Ian McKellen. I think Ellen Degeneres is funny. I don't accept their lifestyles though. Similarily, I like alot of actors in Hollywood. However, I don't approve of actors divorcing and marrying new people every year. I think that is as much a "threat to the sanctity of marriage" as homosexuals are.

There is no proof either way on this subject (although that is partly due to the scientific community's ignorance of psychology), so it comes down to a personal decision. But, homosexuals are discriminated against and, in my opinion, those who discriminate against homosexuals are no better than Hitler himself. If you believe that they are sinning, let God be the judge of that - they will pay in the after-life.

Again, I don't agree with Christians discriminating against homosexuals. I also think that alot of people that consider themselves Christians are not, especially the ones that bomb abortion clinics, kill homosexuals, kill negros, whatever. (Note, I used the word "negro" because I dislike any other term used to describe them. 'African' is not accurate, as there are dark skinned people in places besides Africa. I don't like 'black' because I don't call Asians, 'yellows', or white people 'white.' I call 'white people' whatever they are. So that is why I use the word negro. Whether this is correct or not, whatever I used it. It was especially not in any way meant to be hateful or racist, or to represent the similar word, '******')

So, to reiterate, I think homosexuality is wrong (as well as abortion, adultery, etc, etc) but I also think it is equally wrong to kill homosexuals or to discriminate against them.

And about your point about Hitler...that really doesn't make sense. You could use your same argument and say "If you believe that Hitler was wrong and sinning in what he did, let God be the judge of that" So, that point doesn't really point out anything.

[Jallexon2]

I'm still learning that quoting function. Anywho...


Why the Bible? Why not The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn or The Great Gatsby? At least both of those books are actually good. It seems to me as if people's reliance upon the "good book" is not proof in and of itself and leads towards weak arguments based upon something that neither side can agree upon. I personally consider it to be a work of fiction, philosophy and social dogma, not a piece of reference literature, unless you are trying to state what it means, but that does not mean that it applies to the real world. Therefore, any argument based upon the "good book" is going to be thrown away by anyone that does not believe in your "God."

I would not quote Steinbeck or Twain, as people do the Bible, and say that their symbolic references mean that you should change your life (although both are more relevant to the real world).


Define Good Please Do you mean good as in they don't force anyone to examine one's self and the nature of community one lives. Do you mean good as in whatever a person is reading or doing does not cause one to think or leave one with feelings of guilt? Do you mean it can only be good if it entertains? And is it weak just because it is written down or is it weak because it makes a person think every now and then?

This is what I have learned. People do not like to think. People need to be able to relate to things, which means using stories, (because people like to be entertained) to make things relevant to the real world. And I go back to an earlier post this thread in which I put up resources for people to look at and accept or reject. I have been given many sources to various line of thought to except or reject but I am a fool if I do not at least give those sources a few mins of my time. www.gmaa.org

[crackerjacker]

I'm still learning that quoting function. Anywho...




Define Good Please Do you mean good as in they don't force anyone to examine one's self and the nature of community one lives. Do you mean good as in whatever a person is reading or doing does not cause one to think or leave one with feelings of guilt? Do you mean it can only be good if it entertains? And is it weak just because it is written down or is it weak because it makes a person think every now and then?

This is what I have learned. People do not like to think. People need to be able to relate to things, which means using stories, (because people like to be entertained) to make things relevant to the real world. And I go back to an earlier post this thread in which I put up resources for people to look at and accept or reject. I have been given many sources to various line of thought to except or reject but I am a fool if I do not at least give those sources a few mins of my time. www.gmaa.org

Yeah but the idea is for people to express themselves freely on this topic. Just because people post links to the bible, or make references etc doesnt mean others have to believe wholly in its substance.

The same thing as well when others post references, or experiences they have had on a personal level, whats good to them might be offensive to others.

The point is that everyone is unique and has the right to appreciate and express themselves even if others dont agree with it.
cheers

one more thing to add I dont think people have to be geniuses or whatever to enjoy reading a book which can consist, of the bible, a book, novel or biography.

what maters is the fact that they take it upon themselves to learn something and have an open mind towards what they are reading.
and one other thing people can learn to appreciate what others say as well even if they dont agree with what the person says.

i dunno sometimes it aggavates the hell out of me when i read something that someone posts, which is totally negative because they flame someone else for something that the other person tries to share with others.

more or less it has to do with experiences and something.
somethings may not be rationable for one individual but hell its sure as wondrous and extraordinary to someone else.

so what might be good for you is surely not good for everyone else.
peace

[Whistler]

Originally Posted by mountain_rage
For all those that are cristian and said homosexuality is wrong. Priest can't marry because they are married to god right.

This is a catholic thing. The bible actually encourages christians and specifically religious leaders to raise families and nowhere says priests cannot be married.

To my understanding according to the bible god is a man.

No. In the english language God is refered to as a he but this is misrepresentative as God is neither.

So doesn't that mean priests are all married to a man? Thats right. Yes god is a man if you take adam and eve story. They built the man from the image of god and from the mans rib they built woman.

Your story is accurate except man being made in God's image does not mean God is male. This is very much open to interpretation but is probably refering to something more general like God is humanoid or physically based as oposed to eneregy something vague and mysterious like that.

[edit:]The more common interpretation being the term man refers to humans

Alright so the way I see it all priest and god himself are homosexuals.

Wrong, though aparently some are. Don't judge religion in general by these few men. By the way Piranetus great job on explaing your views so clearly as they are very similar to my own.

[tamarisk]

GOD is a spirit, and spirits are not humans, therefore there is no male and female.

[Dark Messenger]

GOD is a spirit, and spirits are not humans, therefore there is no male and female.

that always boggled my mind...the part in the bible where it said, "He created them BOTH in his image...male and female..he created them."

Tamarisk, you may have just answered that question for me...so it's the spirit of man and woman that resemble god..not their organs?

[lil_amb]

aglo + satin.... I didn't even read the rest.....I was lost then

[ROMANTICGUY50]

I believe that God does exists. I believe in good and evil. I believe in Heaven and Hell.I also feel that we have been givien a choice, between doing right or wrong

[Dark Messenger]

I believe that God does exists. I believe in good and evil. I believe in Heaven and Hell.I also feel that we have been givien a choice, between doing right or wrong



what if....all you believed...was wrong?

[Krell]

What if, all some do NOT believe, were to turn out true, or even partially true?

Is it worth the risk to not consider it?



.

[celticone]

"Fundamentalist Christians believe the world is 12 thousand years old... I asked this guy, I said: "Come on, man, dinosaur fossils. What's the deal?" He goes, "God put those here to test our faith." "I think God put you here to test my faith, dude." Does that bother anyone, the idea that GOD might be fucking with our heads?! Anyone having trouble sleeping restfully with that thought in their head? God's running around burying fossils. "Ho, ho.. we'll see who believes in me now! Ho, ho, I'm a prankster God! I am killing me!" You know -- you die, you go to St. Peter. "Did you believe in dinosaurs?" "Well, yeah, there was fossils everywhere!"--*gunshot*--"Aaahhhh!" "What are you, an idiot? God was FUCKING with you!! Giant, flying, lizards -- you moron! That's one of God's EASIEST jokes!" "It seemed so plausible. AAAAHHHHHH!" Bound for the lake of fire."

Bill Hicks - a true god

[muffenme]

:fire

If there turns out to be a god then I guest I be seeing Bon Scott in Hell because Hell ain't a bad place to be.

:hole

[Jallexon2]

Celticone: Obviously that guy you spoke to is way out there in one of those literal take everything literal branches of Christianity Some people believe if its not written in the bible we don't need to know it. And then there are some who understand that the bible is selective history that goes from man's start on earth (The Book of Genesis) to man's end (The Book of Revelations).

Just as an aside: I was once told that the word day translated into Greek or Hebrew means eon and eon means many, many, years. What is easer to understand and comprehend one day or one million years. I think when the bible was retranslated into NIV the editor decided to use day so that later readers would not get hung up on the issue of time. At least that is what it says in the editorial notation in my bible.

The bible I use: Life Application Study Bible NIV, Published by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Wheaton, Illinois and Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright 1997.

It has this big preface about how all the diffrent branches of Christanity getting together and the research they did to make the version I have is as true to the original bible, with the use of modern language and as understandable as possible, hence the editoral notes when ever you read a copy of the one I have.

[Krell]

I dont have a problem with a long world history OR evolution, thats not even the point. Fundamentalists are naive.

The issues here is where or not, in some recent history, god created man in his own image. After dinosaurs and early man, it is perfectly plausible that god remade man with higher functioning and capacity for conscious and soul.

As as an alleged and possible creation, being able to reason and search things out, can we attest to anything spiritual or devine, in our own personal and valid experiences?

Dont tell me god exists because you read it in a book, tell me first hand that you have experienced something higher that is inconceivable and not mental delusion.

This, I myself can do.






.

[Dark Messenger]

Dont tell me god exists because you read it in a book, tell me first hand that you have experienced something higher that is inconceivable and not mental delusion.

This, I myself can do.






.

sounds like a bible thumper to me.

[wingnut2600]

I agree with this. People need to believe whatever they want to believe. But at least believe it for a reason. Don't believe in God because your parents did or your pastor did. Likewise, don't not believe in God because your parents didn't.

:)

I totally agree with this, and respect what you said a few pages back as well. I may disagree with you on many things, but I respect a well-reasoned response that takes into account science and such.

Faith in a God is a kinda cool thing actually; I have quite a bit of existential angst stemming from the salience of my mortality, and I could see a faith in a deity causing me to spend far less time worrying about my inevitable demise.

[crackerjacker]

Well I wont say if he exists or not because of many reasons. One reason I can think of is that I dont really see what the difference is if he exsists or not. What I do know from experience is that so many different things take place in the world and some of them are miracles etc.

Just because a miracle happens, or someone happens to become heal doesnt automatically mean that god exsists. He can exsist and I hope people continue to have faith in what they believe in, whether they believe or not.
I just feel if someone wants to believe in god then let them be, however I will not sit here and say god exists or not.

I do have faith but its on a different level and whole different magnitude. I believe in free will, I believe in spirituality, I believe in self heal I believe in reality.

I believe that I will one day pass away *although I feel like in my heart I am immoral*. I think in essence everyone has the damn right to believe in whatever they want to and no one has the damn right to make someone feel less about whatever they believe in. That goes both ways though. I really think people can say they dont believe in god, and I believe that others can say they do believe in god.

I believe that people should be able to read what others says on a poll and disagree about the exsistence of god, or believe that god exsists. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer.

I do belive in free will. I think all religions should be respected and protected. I believe that people should express themseves however they want when it comes to religious beliefs or non religious beliefs.

I personally dont like to be classified as being religious or not. I mean I have gone to church, but I have no experience within the boundaries of reading a bible or whatever.

I respect what anyone wants to be. I dont need to be classified or whatever to state an opinion.
I have doubts about god etc, but in my heart I believe what I believe, and I always change my mind on religion.

One fact always remain though and that fact is that I can just be me and who cares if I am religous or not that doesnt make me any better then anyone else.

Right now I figure believe in whatever lifts your spirits etc be it religious or non religious. whatever rocks your boat.
cheers

[Rickio]

Some extremely devout people with incredible faith dedicate there entire lives to meditation and understanding and get no tangible results.

So for the average person to have troubles with spirituality is not really something strange or even negative.

All things are constantly evolving and everyone evolves at his/her own speed. When the time is right, understanding comes. This also consquently will bring about some other ideas, like it often appears many come and go with never a hint of spiritual understanding.

Well I don't think any post will help in any real understanding.

But I myself had some very strange experiences and had to do a lot of reading, thinking and pondering.

Real life example:

If you mess your computer up, knowledge is readily available for you, and you could learn how to fix it. But most will not really seek it. They ask someone else or pay for it to be fixed.

If it happens that way it just does. If anyone really needs to know anything, the knowledge and ability to find it is always available. But like many things it is not seen till you are ready to see it.

But don't ever expect real understanding to come from someones answer. It will always need to be your discovery before you will believe, know and understand.

Anyone good at anything will tell you, it wasn't just luck. It takes work and the average person will work hard for many things. But when it comes to spiritual knowledge hmmm that's another thing now huh?

peace

[Jallexon2]

I agree with Krell and Piranetus :-D

[Dark Messenger]

Some extremely devout people with incredible faith dedicate there entire lives to meditation and understanding and get no tangible results.

So for the average person to have troubles with spirituality is not really something strange or even negative.

All things are contantly evolving and everyone evolves at his/her own speed. When the time is right, understanding comes. This also consquently will bring about some other ideas, like it often appears many come and go with never a hint of spiritual understanding.

Well I don't think any post will help in any real understanding.

But I myself had some very strange experiences and had to do a lot of reading, thinking and pondering.

Real life example:

If you mess your computer up, knowledge is readily available for you, and you could learn how to fix it. But most will not really seek it. They ask someone else or pay for it to be fixed.

If it happens that way it just does. If anyone really needs to know anything, the knowledge and ability to find it is always available. But like many things it is not seen till you are ready to see it.

But don't ever expect real understanding to come from someones answer. It will always need to be your discovery before you will believe, know and understand.

Anyone good at anything will tell you, it wasn't just luck. It takes work and the average person will work hard for many things. But when it comes to spiritual knowledge hmmm that's another thing now huh?

peace

good post rickio.

[mountain_rage]

Everyone who said they believe in hell where in the bible does it talk about hell?

If im not mistaken hell is a man made myth. I don't recall any religion actually having a link to hell. Ive heard of purgatory but never hell except in a man made environment

[muffenme]

:fire

This life we live in could be hell and we don't really know it, just joking.

:hole

[crackerjacker]

and you obviously haven't read the Origin of species, either..therefore you are not qualified to speak to me on something you obviously know nothing about..it's people like you who go around forcing your belief system on others that really burn me up.

how about you enlighten me on this subject ?
Origin of species?
some valid links thanks *chat u up later *
peace

[crackerjacker]

um i think your talking about darwin dark?
i did a google and came up with results.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-origin-of-species/&e=1102

is that the same thing your talking bout dark origin of species?

[aqlo]

a study of the Apocrypha is too indepth for me to go into right now

I already covered it in this very thread back on page 6
http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=229318#post229318
I'm interested in where in the apocryphal books you see purgatory. Prayers for the dead are in II Maccabees (and also in the New Testament in Paul's letters to the Corinthians and to Timothy) but the mechanism by which they would help isn't specified.


and you obviously haven't read the Origin of species, either..therefore you are not qualified to speak to me on something you obviously know nothing about..

You are just trying to pick a fight. The fact is that the basis for the doctrine of hell is all through the bible and very difficult to deconstruct. One can dispense with Sheol and Hades, with a great effort, by assuming all references refer merely to the grave, even those where suffering seems to continue in the form of "howling and gnashing of teeth" for example. Stretching a bit further, one can dispense with the lake of fire and so on on the premise that they are for angels rather than humans. But it takes a great deal of constructive interpretation and an assumption that the authors are continually saying something without really meaning it. Might as well re-construct it to prove you are the real goD and all Jews are your servants while you are at it, it will require a lot less effort and be less fraudulent.

Oh, you also obviously haven't read Origins of Species either, or didn't understand what you read, because it covers the subject of why there are so many similar species of birds and vermin that don't interbreed and doesn't touch directly on the subject of goD or Creation at all. The theory that seems to oppose the account in Genesis directly is not Evolution (though it is often called that in the crappy state-run schools which also teach that Vietnam was a UN action in which the US "assisted") it is actually Singularity of Descent. This is the normal academic jumping-to-conclusions non-scientific unprovable theory that, seeing as how we do have evolution, it clearly follows that we are all descended from a single bacteria? The opposing theory is called Spontaneous Diversity and proposes that there is no reason why there wouldn't have been many species from the very beginning of life, seeing as how every possible protein was already present in the primal clay or gunk where that same bacteria came into existence.

[YWD67]

That is the problem with the bible. You can take 500 people and give each one the same verse from the bible and ask for what is means. Odds are you will get 500 different answers. The translation of the bible by the scholars and theologians at the time also belived that the "Black Death" was caused by bad air. Many more of the enlightend scholars believed that it was a curse by god for mans wicked sins. This resulted in the forming of the flagilants (no not the passing of gas). These religious individuals believed that in order to gain god's forgiveness they should beat themselves with whips, sticks, etc. In truth the Black Death (aka. Black plauge) was caused by the bite of rodent fleas. The increase in the fleas was caused by the increase in the rodent populations. The increase in rodents was do in part to the lack of preditors during the time, namely cats. Cats at the time were considered to be evil and in league with satan. Some citys in Europe even offered rewards for killing cats. The bounty was paid when the ears of the cat were brought to the local majesterate. So the bible it's self was translated over time by individuals who were using their prespective of life as they saw it at the time. You can note, define, refine,index, lable ,check and double check human work all you want. Guess what? Man will still make errors and mistakes.

[Whistler]

[...] So, whenever you like, you can just STFU, since you obviously have done no studies in religion, ancient civilizations, languages, or science. And who said I was forcing my beliefs on anybody? I said time and time again, that is not my intention. Obviously, you are not mature enough to handle this thread, it's been going fine except for your ignorant, trolling posts. So, how about stopping, and posting in a thread you probably know more about, like which porn star you like better (http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=19663&page=1).

[...]



Oh Piranetus... you were doing so well until that... Clearly you were being flamed and just defending yourself but why why could you not just rise above it. Anyhoo my views are as follows:
7 days means 7 days with no 'gap.' Ie. days are not equal to eons as someone posted.
God created the earth 6k years ago, 4k years since the flood, and 2k since Jesus. i think someone posted fundamentalists think its 12k but no that was pulled out from a dark place were the sun don't shine.
There is only one 'truth' and not everone's opinion can be true for them. So i mean if the athiests or muslims are right we need to know.

[classical]

Does God exist? That depends on your definition of God, whether you're talking about a he, she, it, goat, The Force, whatever.

If you mean God in the Evangelical Christian sense, I don't believe in that. But I could be wrong. So please sign your home over to me if they ever build the third temple on Temple Mount. Hey, why not? Jesus' return will be imminent and my ownership of your property will be moot, right? You can laugh at me later when you ascend into heaven.

What I believe in is being compassionate and charitable to my fellow human beings. I'm just non-practicing.

[PiRaNeTuS]

That is the problem with the bible. You can take 500 people and give each one the same verse from the bible and ask for what is means. Odds are you will get 500 different answers. The translation of the bible by the scholars and theologians at the time also belived that the "Black Death" was caused by bad air. Many more of the enlightend scholars believed that it was a curse by god for mans wicked sins. This resulted in the forming of the flagilants (no not the passing of gas). These religious individuals believed that in order to gain god's forgiveness they should beat themselves with whips, sticks, etc. In truth the Black Death (aka. Black plauge) was caused by the bite of rodent fleas. The increase in the fleas was caused by the increase in the rodent populations. The increase in rodents was do in part to the lack of preditors during the time, namely cats. Cats at the time were considered to be evil and in league with satan. Some citys in Europe even offered rewards for killing cats. The bounty was paid when the ears of the cat were brought to the local majesterate. So the bible it's self was translated over time by individuals who were using their prespective of life as they saw it at the time. You can note, define, refine,index, lable ,check and double check human work all you want. Guess what? Man will still make errors and mistakes.
This is true and goes along with what I have been saying all along. Countless people have misinterpreted the bible and fell into error throughout history. But again, just because some people have misinterpreted truths, does not mean those truths are not relevant. Besides, no scripture in the bible says to beat yourself for forgiveness, or that cats are evil. This is the (potential) problem with catholics, various cults, and some protestant groups. If you put the words of any person or persons above what the bible says, then you're in error. Everyone should seek out the Truth for theirselves. Because when people don't seek out that Truth, then will just accept whatever their 'spiritual leader' may say. And that's a dangerous place to be in. That is why these cult leaders can deceive people into killing themselves and such. Again, I urge everyone to seek out the Truth. And don't just take my word for it. Search out the Koran, science, bible, all sorts of sources. I have done that, and found the Truth to be revealed throughout the bible, and for most other sources to have some truth, but not the Truth.

And you're right, man will continue to make errors and mistakes. We're not perfect. But we're also not without hope.

[KingOfTheSlums]

To have a belief in God is just plain stupid.

There is exactly as much evidence for the existence of God as their is for the existence of the tooth fairy.

The only difference is that the tooth fairy doesn't fulfill any basic human needs, so its easier to dismiss the tooth fairy.

[KingOfTheSlums]

how about you enlighten me on this subject ?
Origin of species?
some valid links thanks *chat u up later *
peace

Darwin's central ideas are often misrepresented by people who wish to bash them. The crux of darwin's theory isn't difficult to understand at all, basically he said there are three parts to evolution:

1) An enormous amount of time.
2) Occasional random mutations at a fundamental biological level (it was later discovered that this"fundamental biological level" was the gene)
3) The survival of the creatures whose "random mutations" allow them to adapt best to the environment in which they find themselves.

In other words, in a situation where a large number of biological organisms are competing against each other, over a very long period of time there is bound to arise at some point, in some creature, a genetic mutation. Most mutations are either harmful or neutral to the existence of the species.

Occasionally, however chance will throw up a mutation which is beneficial (perhaps a gene which gives a bird a slightly longer wing than other birds, or a color that lets a lizard blend in better with its surroundings than other lizards).

The inheritors of this gene will have an advantage in the war to find food/mating partners etc and will therefore be more likely to pass on their genes then their competitors. Eventually (perhaps over many thousands of years) their competitors will die out, and the entire species will be descended from the line which contained the "mutant" gene.

Darwin's theory is the single most important centralizing theory in the whole of biology. A truly massive body of evidence has been amassed to support it, and if Darwin's theory were proved wrong the entire edifice of biology would crumble.

People who doubt Darwin's theory of evolution are pretty much on a level with people who believe the world is flat.

[wingnut2600]

I am not a big fan of this tautological statement... nor "evolution--" this implies progression or ascension, which does not occur--more simplicity can happen instead of more derived characteristics. I like the idea of natural selection, which can be summed up in two statements:

1) Differential success (success being defined as reproduction)
2) Heritable variation

:)

[chatitas]

Why would a god create a world full of suffering, war, ignorance and famine. Why would he bless a couple of million Westerners and leave billions in Africa and the East starving to death? Why would injustices take place every minute of the day?

The world today is a sickening place and any just god would not allow it to be so. Why would anyone 'create' human life, just to sit there and see so many of them suffer?


Because He gave us free will. We are free to make choices in our life and His only hope is that we make the right ones that will lead us to a better life. He has blessed us with knowledge and we have cursed ourselves with political correctness. He has amazed us with medical technology and we have corrupted it with abortion. He gave us sexuality to procreate and we have defamed Him by embracing homosexuality.

We are the ones who have done ourselves in.

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

Now That made me Sick.

But thanks to all for contributing and keeping this one alive.

[GiR]

I wonder what life would be like right now if the scientific method had been engaged more seriously over the rampant messages of the church. I can tell you right now, religion has probably digressed our human potential by at least 200 - 300 years. We might of had flying cars by now damnit! >_<

I am open to the idea that they're MIGHT be some higher power, whether it be a GOD or aliens, who knows, but the idea that god was created for man by nature to hide behind the fear of death seems more plausable. Especially when i would be able to make an athiest out of anyone by just disengaging that part of they're brain. (not a simple feat, but it is possible)

And as far as death goes,... think of it this way, if we're all gonna die anyway, shouldn't we be making the most of our time while we're here? If we really DO just end up as worm food, and simply just cease to exist, the same way we did before we were ever born, then doesn't that motivate you to make your life that much better? rather then relying on some kind of afterlife, where you MIGHT get to live forever, with all your dead friends or whatever.

Besides, we're lucky enough to live in a time where Immortality may be possible anyway. Through the use of nano-assemblers (assuming that technology doesn't destroy us all first), and if your neer-death before the technology becomes available, theres always the option to be cryogenically frozen untill then.

I wouldn't nessisarily want to live forever, but doesn't having the option to choose as long as you wish sound appealing?

[Dark Messenger]

The bible was written by man..........not me nor you. I've not read it, for that reason and I have never even seen a "King James Version" ThankYou.

how can U believe in something u know nothing about, then?

[lil_amb]

well, I doubt that the answer"I just do" will satisfy anyone but thats my answer. Sorry, it's late and I cannot think of any way to explain it :)

[muffenme]

:fire


well, I doubt that the answer"I just do" will satisfy anyone but thats my answer. Sorry, it's late and I cannot think of any way to explain it :)

If you want to think that way then it should be your right. I think it's more complex then anyone of us though of.

:hole

[lil_amb]

I agree, it's not something that alot of ppl can even begin to explain.

[DEEP]

yes, I saw him once.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Anyone watch the Pen and Teller show "Bullshit"? Just watched the show on the bible and they showed its all pretty much bullshit. Common sense will tell any thinking person its all tall tails wrapped into a belief. Good going Pen and Teller! Im sure theyll get lots of hate mail now.

[Mels_Smileys45]

"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

hmmm, killing kids for what their parents did. Sounds like a good religion to me! Remind me not to piss him off

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

Note to self: No more kids. Just to be safe.

[KingOfTheSlums]

Plus as regards the reason that how can God exist if there is this amount of suffering in this world. Well the answer is simple, God gave us the right to choose. We can either use it in a good way. All of us individually decide how to use our "talents" it is up to us whether we use it for good or bad.

An example is Nuclear power. It can be used to kill people e.g. nuclear bomb or for "good" like producing nuclear energy.

But a man made force like nuclear power is different from something like, say a flood or an earthquake which people have no control over. There seems to be a huge amount of natural evil in the world which has nothing to do with our freedom to choose.

It also seems to me that the amount of evil in the world is way out of proportion to what is actually needed to test our freedom of choice. How do you explain something like the holocaust which goes way beyond the evil that was needed for God to decide whether indiciduals are exercising their "freedom of choice" correctly.

if God does exist he is one evil motherfuck.

[Mels_Smileys45]

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

[thedirtyd]

i think there is a god. yeah there's a lot of evil and cruelty in the world but god can't control everything that goes on. the way i see it, the devil controls what god can't and that's what causes bad things to happen. but then the part comes in where we make our own choices. everyone expects Him to do the miracles and everything for us but it's really us, the humans, who have the most control. it's up to us to decide whether to be good or evil. and there's no way for sure to know but like someone said way at the beginning of this topic. sit down, ask him, and see what happens. see what changes and how you feel afterwards. if you don't feel anything different then maybe to you there isn't a god for you. but to someone else there might be.

[Showoffsg]

Normally I would write a response to this kind of thread.
But so far I've read very few posts that show much of any education in theology.
Alot of very common misconceptions though, Fear not you are not alone!
bleh

[Metalseeker 79]

No, I won't believe a god exists until I see one, because of reasonable doubt. I don't think I'll ever be 100% sure there isn't, the same way I couldn't ever be 100% sure of the innocence of a person charged with murder with no evidence against them. I wouldn't convict them, would you? Considering that I have never seen or spoken with a god, and considering that religious types would have every reason to claim the existence of a god even if there were none to gain power for themselves, it's hard to believe in a god, especially one who would make so many rules, only to watch them be broken, and still chooses not to punish those responsible in any tangible way, content in promising them they will go to Hell for their misdeeds when they die. That one sounds awfully suspicious to me! I'll believe in Hell or the afterlife when I get there. And even if I knew there was a god and it spoke to me, how would I know it was the right one? Everyone has their own vision of a higher power, and they don't all take one another into account. Someone has to be wrong.

[Carrie]

I went with Yes on this one, that's what I believe. If you don't believe then that's your choice. Maybe a better question is: Do you choose to believe God exists or do you choose to believe that God does not exist? Because for one of you to show 100% conclusive evidence either way to convince every person on the earth that he does or does not exist is impossible.

I agree with you. This is my opinion.

I try to stay away from threads and topic such as these because they tend to become a flaming war. I chose to subject my self to that to stand up for my beliefs. I would not knock someone who doesn't believe, and I would appreciate the same consideration. If anyone feels the need to do so have fun.

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court preserved the phrase "one nation, under God," in the Pledge of Allegiance, ruling Monday that a California atheist could not challenge the patriotic oath but sidestepping the broader question of separation of church and state.

At least for now, the decision — which came on Flag Day — leaves untouched the practice in which millions of schoolchildren around the country begin the day by reciting the pledge.

The court said atheist Michael Newdow could not sue to ban the pledge from his daughter's school and others because he did not have legal authority to speak for her.

Read entire story here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=558&e=2&u=/ap/scotus_pledge_of_allegiance).

[Kabifff]

Why would a god create a world full of suffering, war, ignorance and famine. Why would he bless a couple of million Westerners and leave billions in Africa and the East starving to death? Why would injustices take place every minute of the day?

The world today is a sickening place and any just god would not allow it to be so. Why would anyone 'create' human life, just to sit there and see so many of them suffer?

Unless God's some kind of masochist...

Free will, man, it's not God who creats the suffering, it's us.

[TheGateKeeper]

Maybe the reason there are people who say no there isn't a God is because they've been told that God will bring their sins into the light. And that my be true and understandable that some would be afraid. But if this is so He brings our sins into the light so that He may forgive them. And don't we all want forgivness for our wrong doings?

I know some of you hate the bible but he's a quote for you to think on:
"All those who confess their sins(To God) and others(If needs be) WILL be given MERCY"

Me personally, I totally believe there is a God, not only that but that He desiers a relationship with all of mankind because He loves us!

[crackerjacker]

I can reach your mind if you enlighten my spirits. I have said this many times in the past and to be quite frank I find it interesting that people will try to dictate what others should believe.

I believe in truth, infinity and the right to do what i want.
What somoene believes is wholly up to them in whatever substance or compound that may be.

I believe that there is a god, and I believe that I am invincible, but I have no scientific, religious proof that I am invincible, but just because I say it doesnt mean its not true, when you think about it and get into the spiritual aspect of it anything is possible. But you know what reality sets in. I believe what i wanna believe in.

god to me can be like a flower bud that comes up upon a seed, as well as god can be in the essence be a figment of my own imagination, but if this so called god works for me then i am happy. this also means honestly to me that others have the right not to believe in god, which they deserve that respect.

peace

[Lord_of_the_Dense]

I know some of you hate the bible but he's a quote for you to think on:
"All those who confess their sins(To God) and others(If needs be) WILL be given MERCY"


Nice quote. Here's one for you:

"All those who don't confess their sins(To God) and others(If needs be) can still be given MERCY"

What makes my statement any less true? Do you have proof for yours? I know, dumb question. There's no way you could have proof that sinners WILL be given mercy. Just as I cannot prove that unbelievers can be (or even care to be) given mercy.

[crackerjacker]

Nice quote. Here's one for you:

"All those who don't confess their sins(To God) and others(If needs be) can still be given MERCY"

What makes my statement any less true? Do you have proof for yours? I know, dumb question. There's no way you could have proof that sinners WILL be given mercy. Just as I cannot prove that unbelievers can be (or even care to be) given mercy.

hmm heres one quote to
to each their own
self preservation etc.

truth is what u make of it
mercy mercy me
no mercy
:)

[crackerjacker]

"And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

hmmm, killing kids for what their parents did. Sounds like a good religion to me! Remind me not to piss him off


If you think about it with the plague and the innocent who have been killed you have to question this so called god that they so very talk about in the bible. like i said i aint knocking it but really the pain and suffering that comes along with the good and bad how can one explain things rationally?

i am one to believe in what i believe in i just feel its messed up if this so called thing really happen, or whatever.

a tale tall tale of tells
peace

[Mels_Smileys45]

I believe when I go to sleep, you all disappear

[N[E]rD]

Very well spoken [or written rather] :)

[TheBlackSnow]

Yes, God exists!

[Bytronix]

Illegal function call.

[Bytronix]

You know, I read the question on this poll, "Does God Exists". It was posted as a plural. Exists. So the first thing that goes through ones mind (or at least mine) was probably, Are you asking me if there is one god or many gods? So, I chose to not answer the question at first because I wasn't sure.

Later, this poll hit me again. This time I voted. I voted that "God" is.
What do I mean by that? Well, anything that can be concieved, does exist and/or exists.
I think that multiple realities can exist. If you want to live in a world with no god, and it makes you feel comfortable, then do it. If you want to live in a world with a god and/or multiple gods and it makes you comfortable, then do it. Can those differing opinions and beliefs in God(or lackthereof) peacefully co exist? Yes.
How?
Well, it all goes back to a simple phrase, do unto others as you wish others to do unto you. In scientific terms, it would be every action as an equal and opposite reaction. The rest you have to figure out on your own. Just please don't kill anyone while you're doing it.
This poll made me think of something else as well.
The pledge of allegance.
It goes (it's been a while since I said it) as follows...

I pledge allegance to the flag of the United States of America
And to the republic for which it stands...
One nation, under God,
Indivisible, With Liberty, And Justice for All

I've never typed it before. And, since it's been so long since I've said it, I'm not even sure that I still have it right. Ok, I think I have it right. I'm not looking up wether or not I'm right about what I typed until after I post it. Then again... Maybe I have it memorized so well that I don't need to look it up. Either way, I'll be studying it a bit more. And I think I have a little to say about it. Let me do a copy and past here so I still have it in the window...

Ok, that's funny. Not sure why, but Zeropaid quick reply box wouln't let me do that. Let me try with my mouse (I was using the ctrlins/shiftins method.)

Funny. I still can't copy and paste it. I'm sure that's just some sort of quirk. I think. Then again...
Who knows.
Either way, lets tear it apart for a few...
"I pledge allegance"
Well, if you're going by the book, just find your nearest dictionary. But I don't think that's what it's all about. Even dictionaries have variations.
To me. I think it means "agree" as in "I Agree". never mind, I cant tear the damn thing apart. If I did, it would be mutilating it. And I think it's perfect just the way it is.
It's the God part that everyones wondering about. There's this whole seperation of church and state thing. Then theres this word (if you put it as such) "God" placed in our currency, in courtrooms, and even in the pledge.
To some, the pledge is a prayer.
To some, it's an agreement.
Personally, I think it's a great poem.
What's the difference between the two (or three)? Not much.
Prayers are usually to "god". or "gods"
agreements are usually with "people" or "groups of people".
and poems, those sometimes end up as lyrics to a song.
Which (at least when I was in school) I always said it as though it was a song. Alone. By itself. No background music. No Computers. Just Me, and whomever else may or may not be around.
I don't think I've ever said it alone. Well, maybe. I don't know. I know I've said it alot though.

I do think it's what this country was and hopefully still is (at least partially) based upon. If not entirely. (can't forget the constitution (of the USA) you know. The original one. Not the one with all these ammendments and laws and chapters and subparts and all that. I don't know alot about government. But I do think it's getting to big and confusing. I hope and believe that it will get back to normal after some time. I think I had more to say. But I'm just going to leave it at that for now. Anyone feel free to post whatever the heck they want.