WASTE vs DC

[c411Z]

DC hubs are Kingdoms.. with king like and queen like patriarchal roles for the admins & ops , totaly centralized in nature.

it's a big question for me the validity of WASTE over DC and the features and reasons y.

hub software announces itself to hubtracker list where Feds, and other corperate IP owners scan with mos++ like toolz
DC has a large chat room that people have no choice to not be in or not, heavy on server resources causing lag, as well as searches being heavy too
DC is completely centralized an attack on the hub server runner causes network disruption & other instabilties
ALL chat , private or main chat. goes thru the server in plain readable text that can be logged for viewing in real time or later.
all data transferred between all dc clients is totaly unencrypted ripe for a carnivore type snooping
DC requires somebody to sacrifice for all the others by having the responsibility to keep the hub running 24.7, have cared for security and policing others all while themselves being police targets.
there is a constant war against people who are labeled leeches and modified client runners or sharing anything that is distasteful to a admin or op at any particular time, even having the 'wrong' opinion will get your moraly judgde by a oligarch.

While I think it all understandable that people would place themselves in archaic type hierarchies to get protection I find it much more advantageous to have the opposite type of hierarchy or none, decentralization bottom up power or all being self empowered. Pure P2P. where each individual in a group can allow, or not, keys or ips of each (kinda like a radical decentralized soulseek derivitive where only people on your list can access your files), thus sharing as they see fit with anybody on there mesh or even form/start there own mesh and all have the ability to invite new people into a mesh or meshes based on being on it.

having multiple eqaulitarian chat rooms, #chat and hidden ones &1337 etc
internal file and folder linking waste:/User/What%20is%20Compassionate%20Anarchy.doc
file & folder sends ,autoaccept (on by default)
total control over your own bandwidth, slots and everything else imaginable about yourself
changeable nick . key stays the same (even spoofing)
passive to passive transfers, firewall to firewall by unique mutual aide routing, found in other p2ps like BT MUTE freenet ANTS
as powerful search as DC but more. Faster than and more complete than MS windows search (.folder names, file extensions , partial name matching & a filter.)
totaly secure chat and file transfers with RSA blowfish encryption up to 4096 bit
no server, no downtime, more stability, more secure
stable , beta 1 thru alpha 1.5.2 or any other haven't crashed.
can run as many multiple instances in one or on many meshes.
internal and external linking in chat waste:// http://www.
ability to set up with near complete anonymity. (use max length nick [hides your], disable browse and leve enable search, option to disassociate nick from transfer enabled & set up your allow IP & key lists with people you trust) in this situation you are about running MUTE, ANTS on a WASTE mesh.
back up and move identity with private key and memorized password
small 196k , low mem use.
no 50 users limit, router/listerner ratio is the limit as seen by phatbot virus that uses waste tech and the nullnet

enjoy. if you have any opinions on this comparison and contrast between meshes and hubs. i'm interested in things i may not have thought of. and also interested to explain any other part of p2p culture and it's anarchist (atonomus self organized dirrect action concencus affinity group ish) roots and current in action places to get involved if you may be interested in such

down for all forms of domination(patriarchy, domesticcaion, phobias) and end the grip of lifless institutions ( state, regligion , corporations, life harming belief)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[c411Z]

nobody has any thing to add?

[notbob]

nobody has any thing to add?


other than being pure FUD, there isn't much to add to it

kingdoms--don't like the hub? don't like the rules? go somewhere else

encryption--who cares? nobody is intercepting packets, and it would be illegal for the RIAA etc. to do so

registering hubs--using ptokax, you can disable it, set your hub at a nonstandard port (not 411) and you will avoid the port scans that are looking for hubs

glosearch/etc--it can only find hubs on public lists, so private hubs are immune, also, ptokax blocks them by default

bad users--if you know who you are letting in, you don't have to worry (waste isn't immune to assholes either)

chat--don't like it? type /clear, and don't look at it

logging--not a problem in a group of people you trust

WASTE is fine, and it works. dc is fine and it works. either way you are a hell of a lot safer than kazaa etc

people whine about the exclusivity of dc--WASTE is at least as exclusive, if not moreso, the funny part is when jerks who get booted from dc hubs for being obnoxious assholes love to preach the alternates

[c411Z]

'bad' users - bad is vague & moralist here, who is a bad user to you? you mean somebody who messages you too much or downloads from you when you don't want it , unsatisfied feelings realating to unmet needs?
in waste you can set up to authorize only keys and or ips you want. dc not so unless you go externally into a firewall software or you make your concerns know about such user to a admin/op who is forces to make a judgment/evaluation.
as far as waste not being immune to 'assholes' who are you referring to here as a asshole.. and as i said above you can be immune of who ever you please. even set it up to authorize a chat before it starts..
with dc only the admins (sometimes ops) are letting people in, a bottle neck, a huge responsibility and also very authoritarian and i guess the ultimate weakness of centralization in many a p2p system not just DC in addition to the possibility of server attack and network downtime...

'nobody is intercepting packets ' would you 'believe' so? even based on knowing how governments monitor and censor citizens and the recent revealation by ACLU that the feds have secretly been in the records of businesses ever since patriot act was passed. no carnivre nessisary huh what a wasteful p&r projectm, maybe.. and this isn't addressing my concern about the fact that the admins has a open view to all the private text of all the DC users chats..

chat-, and if you don't like it hit clear... hehe y do i sense you are being defensive because of dc having a in 1 chat only ability? maybe i am misreading ? but i meant no offence just to point out .. that waste has many other ways to configure chatting with multiple rooms hidden and visible and not with no choice to not be in it.

trust. its a big question , do you get paranoid and ban people from your hub that you might have assumed stuff about or been biased to them for personal reasons as a op? it happens, psychology has show people put in power over others can't help from exploiting in ways.. i could translate it to a need for michivious(feeling) play(need). well on a mesh this can;t happen there is no hierarchy.. each is empowered and liberated for their own individual self and yes in there by choice that's the only thing i agree to so far with you if you don;t want to be somewhere no need to be.. everybody has choice and understanding your consequences can be more clear in a decentralized system then in a centralized system (see book on main newz now Anarchist in the library , it's focus is on this issue oligarchy vsr anarchy understanding both and how they will define our culture) i think this newly released books offers some insights to looking not just at the larger systems of law vs sharers but centralized vs decentralized systems.

x is fine y is fine.. again i ask for clarity a 3rd time. what is fine to you?
yes kazaa is a mess..

exclusivity.. both are very different but waste has the ability for anyone on the hub to sign up a friend with out going thru bureaucracy and making others responsible.
you say i am preaching? because i was kick/banned from zeropaid hub? naa i am more involved than that and by the way what is the method of your exclusivity and mandatory politic for joining your guys's hub now if you don't mind me asking..

so we agree kazaa is a mess and we'll continue to keep our eyes on the health of centralized and decentralized systems and their social effects on users?

me i like having both and being active in many ways on each from running waste in anonymous (mute) mode (routing with people you trust and using the hidden name easter egg & search not browse) to being in dc as admins ops and user private public and reg before search using reverse connect. waiting to see waste v2 protocol too....

[Ifxv]

people whine about the exclusivity of dc--WASTE is at least as exclusive, if not moreso, the funny part is when jerks who get booted from dc hubs for being obnoxious assholes love to preach the alternates

Unfortunately I'm on the same mesh as Callz here. Let it be known that he is a very annoying little ragamuffin and no one on our mesh has a favorable opinion of him. The reason why he considers Waste a god like program is because no one has the power to kick him off.

I imagine Callz got a little too rambunctious in DC and got his ass kicked for being himself. Probably why he has such an unfavorable opinion of it. People have the power to kick off idiots and assholes.

To Callz who claims he's a fullblood anarchist: Anarchy only works if everyone is intelligent. You're an imature kid suffereing from teen agnst who for some reason is upset at the world. You make your movement look foolish.

DC eh? Think I'll take a look at that.

[c411Z]

lets get this straight you registered to post here just so you could spread some hate label me and assume what i am as well as speak for others? hmm sounds like you , you who think its your 'life calling' is to be on the nullnet so you can stay 'stressed'? newsflash waste is bigger than the little test darknet of openness and insecurity that your on. making claims for me as to what you 'think' i am or saying something is 'god like' to me is the same trap you keep falling in ifxv. violent assumptions judgmental evaluatory communication , you are only frustrating yourself i see no resolution in your strategy but the alienation of others (you from yourself and others). if that's your thing go for it but be aware we are talking about you behind your back and how much of a untrustable confrotationaly non-ally you are. making your own DC hub may be just the think for you since you seem to want power to dicriminate... but already i feel bad for the people who will have to take the blunt of your misdirrected anger that comes from your lack of loving yourself.

[Ifxv]

:green6



:ass

[Ifxv]

Oh yeah, almost forgot to say. Callz you invited me, along with everyone else in the room to voice their opinions. Only thing you got back was one negative one :mellow

I got a lot of time in my hands, remember, I'm bored at work.

[notbob]

for a guy with nothing to say, you sure use a hell of a lot of words to get there

i guess the lesson is when you beg for an opinon, don't be surprised if it isn't the one you wanted

maybe the problem isn't dc--maybe you really are an asshole in denial

[c411Z]

as for FUD , fear uncertainty and doubt misinformation with regards to competition.
i disagree. this is a open source program and i have made observations and compared it to another system as to allow people to make educated choices i know i slanted it to waste and the features in their that i feel embody what i seek in a p2p app and pointed out some of the things in DC that i don't value. but i also made it clear i use both

but if we are talking about your feelings when you say FUD well what do think will help you alleviate these unsatisfied feelings? and also you have left so many of my other questions unanswered, any reason?

the lesson you draw i don't apply to myself because 1 i am not begging. i stated if you want to reply and have some insight i would be interested in it. as far as opinions they are just that 'beliefs'. and i am still not clear what yours is. i think your drawing yourself into moral quagmires.

it's not possible to hold anybody else responsible for your feelings.. (irritation etc) you have a choice..

[notbob]

as for FUD , fear uncertainty and doubt misinformation with regards to competition.
.

lets see-- you obsess about pms being read and logged by hub operators, mos++ etc compromising the security of hubs, encrypyion and its "importance"

you don't consider those 1 sided disingenuous arguments FUD?

mos++ is a dead issue--any hub with half a brain is private, unregistered, and on an alternate port.

logging isn't an issue when people you share with are people you actually know and like.

encryption is meaningless, because nobody is getting their packets sniffed, they are getting busted by people with standard clients getting their lists because it is cheaper and there are no legal issues. packet sniffing is illegal for everyone but law enforcement, and infringement of music copyrights is so far a civil, not criminal case (software for profit is a criminal case)

[c411Z]

no, because i don't see them in a competitive nature , in fact i avoid competition and seek cooperation
and these issues are still valid , so they may not be to your niche zeropaid DC hub. well my post was about ALL dc networks sure SOME have taken extra security precautions to avoid future problems but still the issue of centralization = oligarchy is paramount to the p2p debate.

privacy is always a issue and DC hubs and clients are not able to take a direction that truly enables this because of the protocol. Admins will still be able to read private chats, sure most don't but the fact that it's so easy is a concern.

assuming no packets are being logged sniffed etc is very assumptions i think , it's in the realm of possible so it must be considered and if there is evidence either, i say share it. (please no RIAA pr quotes :) )

in general i can admit i am frustrated. manly because of the heavy burden of being an op (regs, grievances) and because of the power ops have that leads to abuse.. this level of taking responsibility of others and using reward punishment systems is something that can be done away with by enabling each to empower themselves under new architecture and has brought me as well as others who have shared with me using it joy and hope of a continued secure sharing environment.

in other news, Phatbot virus/trojan based on WASTE, coder busted in germany today...
http://www.cmpnetasia.com/ViewArt.cfm?Artid=23579&Catid=3&subcat=50
http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/05/10/HNarrestsnotlinked_1.html

[c411Z]

now even tighter with added security of 1.5.2!

[DainBramaged]

Giving a "slanted" review, as you call it, is not giving much of a review at all.

WASTE has some good, solid features.

DC has some good, solid features.

Likewise, both clients have features that could be improved upon and problems that could be alleviated. Really, who cares?

I am a big fan of DC and have used it for a long time--it's great. Tons of files, good quality, whatever you want. However, since the conception of WASTE, a semi-large group of friends and I use it to share files and keep in touch since we DL different things. IMO, WASTE is a little bit better for groups of people to gather, but, again, that may be based on my personal experiences.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[c411Z]

i care . and "good" is too vauge for me... & 'slanted' seems rather judgmental
it would meet my need for more understanding if you were to say what specific features your refering to and how they are for you.
would you care to? and if not further replies i sure would appiritiate if it's made reference to the specific observations of the differences and their effects on community solidarity and autonomy etc
thx

[cpugeniusmv]

you know...you can tunnel through to a DC hub with ssh and have the same (if not better) encryption than with waste.

[c411Z]

i am not cryptography expert but i have read SSH is easier to break than RSA, could sombody with ups on this chirp in?
what is nessisary for this DC ssh connection? special client or server?

still my main issue is around authoritarianism, abuse, stability, & security in centralized systems and the liberatatory community that can be built with wasteish decentralization

[cpugeniusmv]

i am not cryptography expert but i have read SSH is easier to break than RSA, could sombody with ups on this chirp in?
what is nessisary for this DC ssh connection? special client or server?

still my main issue is around authoritarianism, abuse, stability, & security in centralized systems and the liberatatory community that can be built with wasteish decentralization
ssh uses RSA by default, but DSA is also available...and it's stronger than RSA.

all you need to do to get going is have putty (a windows ssh client), and set up a tunnel. it's not really that hard.

[shawners]

cant we all just go back to kazaa with the 128 byte songs that are poorly mistagged?

[c411Z]

shawners: y?
cpugeniusmv: got a link on that?

[cpugeniusmv]

i doubt there are any links on it, and i doubt anyone else has done it before.

i'll post how to do it in a few days...i'm at million man lan now.

waste is easier to configure, but encryption is possible with any TCP connection.

[shawners]

oops. Sarcasm on/off tag wasnt listed.

[HardwareHank]

I and a bunch of my friends have run a DC Hub in the past, and we experienced that fastest speeds out network would support. We tried WASTE because of a crackdown, and lo and behold, our XFer speeds were 1/3 as fast! We tried everything - even turning the encryption way down, and it was still slow. I hope they fix this in new clients, or perhaps they have already. I don't have a network to try it on right now, so I don't know.

Anyway, my stance on the subject is that DC is way better because of the heirarchy (king, royal subjects, peons) - and I like the SSH tunnel idea - they should integrate it into future versions of DC++ and hub software like YoshiHub...

[cpugeniusmv]

okay, here's how i did it. (obviously not for the faint of heart)

Assumptions:
1. your hub owner is okay with this and has your full cooperation
2. your hub is running on a *nix system
3. OpenSSH is insalled and running.
4. You are relatively competent with *nix systems.

okay, here goes:

first you need to configure OpenSSH to allow only connections authenticated through public key cryptography. in your sshd configuration file you need to have PasswordAuthentication no.

now you will need to make a decision. in order to create the tunnel, a user has to log in. you can either use the same login ID, key-set, and passphrase for everyone...or you can create uniquie logins for everyone. this is not related to the hub login stuff...and granting this account will also grant the user a shell account on your *nix machine. for information on how to set up accounts with SSH DSA encrypted logins, go here (http://www.defcon1.org/html/Security/Qpop-SSL/bashchnge/DSA-SSH2/dsa-ssh2.html). (Please note that depending on how you create your keyset, you may need to convert your private key from openssh format to putty format...this is easy to do with PuTTYgen, which is available from putty's website (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/)

after you have that set up, and you are able to SSH into the machine with your newly created keyset...you're ready to create a tunnel to the machine to connect to the hub. here's the command line to do it with PuTTY:

cd path\to\putty
start putty.exe -2 -L 411:hub.hostname.com:411 username@hub.hostname.com -i C:\path\to\yourprivatekey.ppk

that command will bring up a putty window, ask for the passphrase you assigned to your keyset, and then it will create a tunnel from port 411 on the hub machine on port 411 on the local machine. by default, only the localhost will be allowed to connect to the hub using this tunnel.

it's no hay ride, but it can be done. and it could also be integrated into hub and client software as HardwareHank suggested...but i don't see it happening any time soon.

[DainBramaged]

... i know i slanted it to waste and the features in their that i feel embody what i seek in a p2p app and pointed out some of the things in DC that i don't value... You're right, saying "slanted" IS judgemental. Let me remind you that it was you who called it slanted. I was merely reiterating the point.

Is there really a need to discuss the effect on community solidarity and automony? It's a chat program, yes, but clearly it is focused on file-sharing--just in a more secure way. So share files.

[c411Z]

Anyway, my stance on the subject is that DC is way better because of the heirarchy (king, royal subjects, peons)


I'm curious what position do you play? and do you not find it oppressive, coercive, or obligatory and how do you know that the ops use their best judgment and if that judgment is in your interest? wouldn't you rather have the say yourself? (unless you are the admin or op and are addicted to abusive power possibilities ;) )

i could see waste going slower than DC for the reason that waste has routing built in this might make some peoples connections slower (passive to passive people) and maybe slow down the active routers for those 2 peoples connection but this adds the possibility for passive people (routers firewalls that are not configurable to the user) to share with eachother witch can NOT happen in dc. another reason i see DC going faster is because many of the new clients have multi source downloading dcpro reverseconnect and zdc++ come to mind.. oh ya and waste you can share at whatever speed you want. heck you can even hide (become semi anonymous to all but those you choose to route thru) with a .Nick and a ip allow list.
version 2 of WASTE will have multisource so i read...


make your own choice but i still am not for the oligarchy. i prefer anarchy because it allows for more stability trust security and self empowerment.

[c411Z]

You're right, saying "slanted" IS judgemental. Let me remind you that it was you who called it slanted. I was merely reiterating the point.

Is there really a need to discuss the effect on community solidarity and autonomy? It's a chat program, yes, but clearly it is focused on file-sharing--just in a more secure way. So share files.

:-) (i don't mean to be 'right' but myself from my own view) ok how about saying i am expressing my satisfaction with one system over the other based on observations during experience? and requesting other people look at my observations and come to there own choices and conclusions being aware/informed basically

because observation with out judgment is the highest form of human intelligence.

yes SHARE files that's what's important 2 me as well. the type of connection this is facilitated by makes a difference too. as for a need to discuss community solidarity and autonomy is there one? shure i like to always keep these things in mind so i know who to be in solidarity with (who i can trust) and autonomy (being free from those i don't)

what will be interesting to see is what happens when and if a wider crackdown on p2p comes (see the crazy bills going thru usa congress) and seeing what stands... a centralized p2ps akin to napster or closed decentralized p2p darknets of the newest p2p generation with high security

when i turn DC on my protowall/blocklist manager alerts me that spiders are at my doorsteps being blocked.. that surely isn't because of the stealth features in dc clients ;) (pun intended)

[c411Z]

and waste still kicks ass ;)

[tMoD]

Waste and DC both suck. Dogster has more features and content than any filesharer could ever possibly want.

[ABC_thellookoflove]

use http://www.jetiants.tk with jabber buddies, this is safe an anonym as well and you need no personal buddy, you can do it over peers

[Rajarius]

When the shit hits the fan, there will still be plenty of places you can go. Sure, some networks will be targeted more than others. You can choose to avoid those, or risk and share and probably find a lot more content too.

P2P developers are increasingly concerned with security. Also, "ordinary" people are developing add-ons or other utilities that help keep you private. It's a cat and mouse game between devs and everyone else.

[c411Z]

i like the idea of ANTS if it works just after installing (total anonyminity with a hit in speed)
but i more like the idea to have a network of trusted dedicated individuals in solidarity of cuase with interppersonal connections and will to creat share culture a darknet
use http://www.jetiants.tk with jabber buddies, this is safe an anonym as well and you need no personal buddy, you can do it over peers




room on soulseek :
!!(A)RadIcaLs, ReVolutIonaRy, PosT-LefT, BrIgHt, PIraTe, AnArcHiSiTiC, Non-Violent ComPassIoNaTe ComMunIcaTioN, EmPatHetIc, AmOrAl, MeTa-EtHiCal, DirreCt DemOcrAcy w RecaLablE deLaGatEs, ConCenSuS ProCeSs, Federation, ProTecTive ForcCe of lIfe, Raw VeGan OrGaNic EaTs, AndrOgYnoUs, SkiLl ShaRe, IlleGal OpEn SoUrcE, ParTneRshIps, PhySicAl & MeNtal FeAts, ComPleXitY ThEoRy , QuAntUm PhySicS, PosaBilItiEs, ChOice, No ComPromiSe UniVerSal InTrInsIc ShaRed AspIraTioNs/Needs/ Wants/DeSiRes/VaLueS, EgOIsm, AnTI Fa, AutoNoMy, ConTinUoUs, UnDdeRgrOuNd, RaDiCaL, De-ConStRuCtIoN, Diversity oF TacTicS, NatuRalIsTic, SuStaInaBle, 100% VoLunTeEr CooPs, SustaINabLe GreeN BuIlD, LIvIng WitH-In MinDFulL EcO-loGICaL FootPriNts, SoLar-Wind-WaVe-HyDro ReNeWable EneRgy, GeOdEsIc LiviNg MacHiNes, QuinOa, Bio-DivEsIty, FreE ThoUghT, De-DoMesTicAtiOn, ReWildInG, EutHenAsiA, ReSoRatIve JusTicE, BliSS, PhoToVoLtiC ElecTrolOsIs WaTEr sPliter, anti-CaPitAlIst

[c411Z]

the same case be made for BT vs EXeem.

less the fact that exeem's coders don't embrace GPL and are violating it by adding onto libtorrents code and not sharing back .. yet..... somebody get on this and hold them accountable ?

with all the attacks by the adjent/cogs of lifeless insitutions , corps. the centralized root of BT systems trackers. now each and all have the tool to be their own collaboratively run tracer/client exeem. to avoid the attacks in this war on sharing and assert our human rights, not be dependent or controled cencored ratioized dedepended upon , sold out logs to use by admins of tracker sites, and seed to critical mass that sustains itself by a continual demand , more risk of course than the exclusive darknets of WASTE. way more! but open decentralized systems something we all can charish of we choose to be in such space as a distro aquisition tool/stratagy

mad props, shout out top EU for rejecting the human rights violations of software patents too , only 1 step is say they go farther to embrace sharing discoveries for the sake of all humanity over/before/around this trading of inventions thats only stiffeling innovation and preventing the future primitivism and decentralized sustainable self empowered energy revolution of DIY solar hydro.
this goes for eu's decision to tell england there stance against anti McDonalds's activists who bring awareness to the truth of that tyranny of gmo obesity.

peace our and to exeem coders cooperation over competition surely you made your coding costs back with that spyware stunt that you were pressured to take out. so take that next step and source forge it stop the GNU PLU violations please.

[ABC_thellookoflove]

i like the idea of ANTS if it works just after installing (total anonyminity with a hit in speed)
but i more like the idea to have a network of trusted dedicated individuals in solidarity of cuase with interppersonal connections and will to creat share culture a darknet



with jetiants you have both

a p2p engine, which is anonymous and a option to send files direct to a buddyx or even more to bootstrapp from him and use him as a neighbour.

was ist good for beeing a secure instant messenger replacing aol buddies, but this function does not any developer wants to create, cause you need a server for dynamic ips.

[infringer]

lets see-- you obsess about pms being read and logged by hub operators, mos++ etc compromising the security of hubs, encrypyion and its "importance"

Is that any worse then obsessing over who your going to try to piss off today ?

Errr Dick

Think not!

-infringer-

[c411Z]

CAUTION:
about using domination thingys they always lead to abuse..

A) making moralistic judgments (right/wrong, good/bad)
B) denial responsibility (Amtssprache: I had no choice..)
C) making comparisons (X is "better" rather than "different") (in your case you said WORSE (a personal relative perspective in no way universal))
D) making demands rather than requests

NOTE: being satisfied in your intrinsiic needs and contributing to others joy.
and that people will not let you piss them off becse we all own our own feelings

so the thing your proposing as a stratagie infringer is deprivation of others values to upset them?
i say NO and will call you out.. and ask you to take some steps.. to be acountable and drop your privlage.
be honest
respect autonomy
learn to listen
practice patience
never blame victims
speak for yourself
not edgagine in silence behavior
not hiding behind friends
respond to wishes of survivors and community
TAKE RESPONSABILITY and stop abuse before it starts

peace

[Rajarius]

WTF is your point man?

The gist is that you're about small, interpersonal things. You don't like authority and closed models. You are a member of this board, on this website. You are subject to the will of the site, the board, and anything else. What now?

And face it, there is ALWAYS a judgment that is made. By saying that "domination thingys" always lead to abuse, you have made a judgment, and by doing so have violated points A and C in your list there.

I do not mean to carry a harsh tone. Only a frank one.

[c411Z]

The point the Fuck is. do as Diogenes point out the hypocrisy show systems for what they are and observe what they can do , Observation free from judgment being the highest form of human intelligence. & there are 2 kinds of Judgment live serving or moralistic/punitive i think you will feel it for yourself even i guess you will intemperate your own way what others say. a dialogue leading to a open honest clarity hmmm. if you so choose because we always have choice to maintain a consciousness on our spirit
and yes i will continue my strategy of decentralization pointing out the hypocrisy and power abuse of centralization and advocating for a a open model that ensures efficiency and anonymity of expression in decentralized action node2node
if you disagree with the wat i take it you do so by making a huge generalized powerful statement like "ALWAYS" can you see there is a difference between observation and talking about them as there has been no case i've seen to the contrary showing a 'compassionate dictator'
and that there are 2 kinds of judgment. both with aims to serve our own life even if one is more tragic and less likely to work in the long term and create animosity


watch notbob be assumptious and condesending and refuse to be able to empathize below and show his nature as angsty...
---V
(for witch he will say i predicted and i shall reject as supernatralistic mumbo jumbo, I took action with out making a needless reply)

[notbob]

The point the Fuck is.

you wouldn't know a point if it stabbed you in the neck

[notbob]

Today, 11:05 AM #39
notbob

watch notbob be assumptious and condesending and refuse to be able to empathize below and show his nature as angsty...
---V
Last edited by c411Z : Today at 11:09 AM.

watch callz predict the future 4 minutes after the fact! ooooh! amazing!

[Rajarius]

Saying that a judgment is ALWAYS made is not generalized. It is your opinion that "domination thingys" lead to corruption, not an observation.

Let's say we have a democracy. No one is explicity in charge. Decisions are made via discussion and by unanimous decision. Ahh, but there is no democracy. The dissenter holds all the power. If one person disagrees, a decision is not made. Someone is always in charge.

Do yourself a favor and listen to your own advice. Expose systems for what they are and what they can do. You are making the conscious choice to look, for the most part, only at the negative aspects of other forms of file-sharing. Have you looked at the negative aspects of WASTE? I don't really think I can find it here.

[c411Z]

lets say we have studies we did and non show the contrary of power-over not being abused.
do we just say they are not so even thou we cant disprove them? evidence
observation from a non-bias view.

most democracies are plutocracy minority rule. like rich usa middle class who vote out of fear and lie cheat and disenfranchise others and they are thus a minority who holds power this in no way is direct democracy were ever individual counts. like in Europe kids get a vote now because the older population servers their own needs health care before education. fear polarization and egoist self priority. towards keeping autonomy a need we all have.

i know server negative aspects of waste
cloned nicks users can hog all upload slots mad avail. no users can be banned individually (keys have to be not accepted or purged on a per person for their own protection basis (no power over others :) )
well just look at the wish list on http://waste.sf.net
th liberatory positive aspects far outshine if the communication and cohesion are there , (people not loosing there cool and knowing other people cant make them 'feel' we feel ourselves based on disparigy of our needs (we all share))


Justin Frankel i really appreciate what he made what he did from shafting AOL(corporate lifeless insitution) to making gnuttella to waste to founding/contribution to a 'illegal open source movement' by his action a true revolutionary liberatory human.

[c411Z]

just a reminder : power over = abuse

[cpugeniusmv]

just a reminder : power over = abuse
Another reminder: lack of organization = anarchy.

[c411Z]

correction lack of A organization (hiearchy oligarchy state religion corporation) NOT of affinity groups

anarchists = some of the best decentralized autonomous concensus based organizers around
see counter military recruitment (recruitment 47% down), labor unions/ federations, the 8 hour work day etc. VIVA MAY DAY!

and remember all behavioral studies show having power leads to abuse, even abu graid to every 'leader'
isms anybody? what child doenst want to be free of a parents Ageism for example
free from sexism , raceism, spiciesism(domestication of life for self serving unnutitious ends) DE-domesticate yourself!
p2p anarchy in action , mutual aide , voluntary association, security culture!

[Abyss00]

what child doenst want to be free of a parents Ageism for example
free from sexism , raceism, spiciesism(domestication of life for self serving unnutitious ends) DE-domesticate yourself!
p2p anarchy in action , mutual aide , voluntary association, security culture!Wow, what a mouth full. I have never even met a child that knows what speciesism is little lone want to be free from it.

(domestication of life for self serving unnutitious ends)
Where did you find that?

I think a better definition would be:
"Human intolerance or discrimination on the basis of species, especially as manifested by cruelty to or exploitation of animals."

[c411Z]

I think a better definition would be:
"Human intolerance or discrimination on the basis of species, especially as manifested by cruelty to or exploitation of animals."


thanks for your rephrase i enjoy this. ya i came up with it fast in my head from the observations i have of my friends and family .. unnutritious eating. the overdose of incorrect simple proteins and hormones for people. not to mention antibiotics and all the new diseases the treatment of 'owned creaters' creates - bir flu sars etc. even now they are colonizing life by changing dna of diseases to make it militarized & weaponized . another full frontal assault on life in the name of profit?

[notbob]

lay off the drugs

what's left of your brain will thank you

[Abyss00]

I know it is ethically very very wrong to agree with notbob, but in this case I am going to have to.