Sued for downloading only?!

[Gojira]

Hey folks,

See the following link first: http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw95540_20040402.htm

The RIAA has been going after people who allow uploading from their shared folders. But this article suggests that simply downloading is trackable. How can they track downloading? What technologies are out there for this?

Anyone else hear of being sued for downloading? I thought people were getting hit for allowing uploads.

What do you think?

:fire

[Lehk]

Simple, it is a case of ignorant reporting, I know it is rare ;p but there are /a few/ reporters who don't know wha they are writing about

[Gojira]

Thanks Lehk.

My first impression was that the reporters had no idea between what downloading and uploading mean. But throughout the article, they kept using the same language which suggested that they might, just might, be reporting it correctly.

[Omyn]

"The RIAA has been going after people who allow uploading from their shared folders. But this article suggests that simply downloading is trackable. How can they track downloading?"

Anything you do on the internet is tracked by your IP address (which is the equivalent to your phone number), when you download your computer gives out its ip address to the server/person sharing and tells that computer that it is requesting the information, the server/person sharing then uploads back that information to them.

Your computer would send out something like this called a "packet" which comprises of mini files that can be made into bigger files, thats basically how the internet runs.

A mp3, zip, doc any type of file file can consist of many files called packets. (solely when being transferred over a network, after it comes off the network it is then compiled into a working file again, or not working.

Packets can consist of everything you do over the internet.

Packet is a file of information

Send to 192.168.1.1 File request copyrightisfun.mp3
Some other information to check proper file sizes over a network and other stuff I dont feel like going over.

Their computer then gets the information a little something like this...
Packet from 192.168.1.2 Requesting file copyrightisfun.mp3
Once again would have some little information about the file sizes and other
connection stuff.

And basically it does that back and forth all day untill it gets the files

ISPs have registered ranges of IP addresses that they own, by looking up the range of the ip address you can find out what isp they use, or do it by other methods, and then they call up and ask for your legal information for contacting you.

And no you could not fake your ip address it would be like faking the address of something that you ordered.


How did you think the computer on the other side is able to make the request, it would be like you mailing money and the info on parts you need, without giving me your mailing or other contact information.

You didn't actually think your anonymous did you?! Hahaha.

Oh and this isnt some kind of weird technology its the technology that runs the internet and can be found out by using very basic commands.

That concludes my lesson for today.

[Gojira]

Hey Omyn,

Thanks for the lesson regarding the TCP/IP Protocol and eluding to the suite of tools; however, I wasn't asking about the basics of how computers communicate. That I already know.

Perhaps I need to be more clear...

If my computer is requesting a file from your computer then it is only our computers that are talking. It is me uploading from you and only you and I should see the upload taking place (provided we're staring at our monitors at the time). In other words, we are the only two parties involved.

I was concerned that the RIAA was packet sniffing (perhaps with a sniffer latching onto a users share and catching both the person sharing and the one downloading), thus becoming an intrusive third party to our hypothetical connection. Or, maybe they were setting up their own servers, like a honey pot used to track hacker activity.

The article I linked to said that some filesharers were getting sued for "downloading". That made me think, well, if this is true, then would this suggest that the RIAA has instituted the use of network sniffing to intercept the communications between two computers to see the traffic? Or, has the RIAA set up it's own servers full of ripe songs for the picking and then recording every sole who happens to take from it?

These were my concerns in my original post. Sorry I wasn't so clear.

In the end, I think Lehk's opinion is most correct here (see above). It's just lack of knowledge on behalf of the reporter as to what is downloading vs uploading vs sharing, etc....

[tikitanaka]

They aren't sueing "Downloaders". It's either A.) stupid reporter, or B.) meant to be misleading in order to scare you. They will never sue anyone for just plain downloading. How can they prove you don't actually own the CD? Are they gonna come bust my door down and search my Cd collection? If I own the CD, I own the rights to that song, and I can download it. In fact, I do that often. It is easier and quicker to download many songs, than search through my collection of CD's to find what I want in order to rip them. Besides, they will never ever sue anybody for downloading, because they don't want to bring that issue to court. Can you imagine them losing the case, and the court saying that, yes, once you buy or own the physical media, you can download the mp3 legally? The headlines would read "Downloading Legal!!" As it is now, most people wrongly believe that downloading is illegal- it isn't. They want to hide that fact as long as possible. Once you buy the media, you have the right to shift it into whatever form you want for your personal use, whether that is converting it to MP3 yourself, making a greatest hits collection CD, or downloading the MP3 someone else made.

They only sue uploaders. Download away. Remember all those CD's you bought, and lost, or had stolen, or got scratched? You paid for the rights to use that music. You still own the rights to them. Download away.

Oh, and how they "Track" downloads is simple, all they'd have to do is log who downloads files from Them. They don't track anybody else.

[.::BeatFactory::.]

How can they track downloading? What technologies are out there for this?START -> RUN -> "command" -> "netstat" (+ handler or without)

[smokingbevel]

A small glimmer of the otherside of the coin:

A total of 532 illegal file sharers were included in today's action, including 89 individuals who were using university networks to illegally distribute copyrighted sound recordings on peer-to-peer services. The university networks used for this illegal activity include schools in Arizona, California, Colorado, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Washington, D.C., and Wisconsin. Lawsuits against 443 illegal file sharers using commercial ISPs were brought in California, Colorado, Missouri, Texas and Virginia. Like the lawsuits filed earlier this year, the RIAA is again utilizing the "John Doe" litigation process - which is used to sue defendants whose names are not known
Piracy, which is particularly rampant on college campuses, continues to hurt retailers, musicians, producers, record labels and the thousands of less-celebrated individuals involved in making music.
While levels of piracy on college campuses remain high, there has been real progress during the last two years. Schools across the country are taking proactive steps to better educate students about illegal file sharing and are stepping up enforcement of their rules against copyright violations. Many university administrators have installed computer network management technologies such as bandwidth shaping.
While it's possible that the reporter of the article at http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw95540_20040402.htm, botched the terminology, it would still appear that schools (universities) are assisting members of the RIAA happily by implementing mechanisms designed to catch individuals in copyright violation activities, regardless as to whether these violators are "uploaders" or "downloaders" of content.
The bottomline: "WARNING:Do not violate copyrights at school."
Recently, there was a zeropaid news post about software technologies implemented in schools to catch copyright violators.

[Gojira]

"Recently, there was a zeropaid news post about software technologies implemented in schools to catch copyright violators."

Ok Smokingbevel, this is the kind of technology I'm talking about, not something like NETSTAT which only monitors connections to the computer running NETSTAT. What are the universities using to catch the traffic? Anyone know? What's the product name? developer? etc.

My thoughts were that the RIAA was using some kind of sniffer over the public net to latch on to someones share and then catch all traffic to and from that share and, thus, nail downloaders as well.

But I think Lehk has it right...ignorant reporting and poor understanding of correct terminology. That most likely explains the confusion.

[Kf7avenger]

Yeah it might have Been a STupid Reporter Thats Rare You can Be caught by downloading as if u dint know. One Way 2 Be caught is if Your downloading a from One The RIAA Honey Pots Computers That SHares Fake Musik Thats only if your Bad IP Blocker DIn't have that Bad IP Range in its List. Now the File mayb Fake they WOn't sue U for that THey Get your IP address and try to scan your computer for SHaring Copyrighted Material ANd if their Successful youll probably get warned by Your ISP and if your repeated affender ull have some explaining 2 do .

[SamJam]

Or, has the RIAA set up it's own servers full of ripe songs for the picking and then recording every sole who happens to take from it?



IF it's possible to be caught downloading, honeypots seem to be the only way to do it. But then I wouldn't see how there would be any case against you. The companies own that content but once they put it up for grabs on the internet, I would think it would be considered "fair use". P2P apps have not been considered illegal... so you are doing nothing wrong if it has been offered for free by the one who hold the copyrights to the content.

[smokingbevel]

anti-piracy technologies:RetSpan, Overpeer, p2poverflow
RetSpan, monitors system for files related to piracy, pollutes networks
http://www.infoanarchy.org/story/2002/8/11/16505/2144
RetSpan english documents:
http://retspan.europe.webmatrixhosting.net/info/media/021008_release.aspx
http://retspan.europe.webmatrixhosting.net/info/media/020725_release.aspx
Overpeer (subsidiary of Loudeye LOUD), supposedly damages sound quality of digital music
http://www.overpeer.com/solutions.asp (http://overpeer%20solutions/)
http://www.overpeer.com/antipiracy.asp (http://overpeer%20anti-piracy%20solutions/)
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/01132003c.php

[DIMA2001]

For the idea of logging what you are downloading from RIAA, well:
if RIAA/their companions add copyrighted data to their shares, they either:

1. Violate the copyright law/their own copyright and you could sue them :]
2. They change the licence for this particular file and allow downloading and spreading over all digital types of media (or only p2p, internet etc), this way they allow anyone to do everything with this song except selling - you can share it, add this song to your homepage etc.etc.
This leads to the conclusion that RIAA is not sharing their own content since they either run into the court or they release this song under a licence similar to GPL

Tracking download is possible on the internet switches (there are lots of them, just do a tracert to zeropaid.com), but not anywhere else. Since the P2P Watchdogs don't have access to satelites, routers etc.etc., they will have no clue about your download. They will have to install a trojan horse on sharer's computer to see what is going on with it. It is not possible since it is illegal and if they allow him to upload copyrighted material see point 1 or 2.

**AA = :tol2

[rjelks]

I don't think there's anything preventing the RIAA from sharing copyrighted works and getting you to download them. I think could land people in court in the future. As long as the RIAA, or watchdog group has permission....they aren't breaking there own copyright. In terms of entrapment, that is only when a law enforcement agency is involved. I'm more scared about the new bill that just passed through the House...making filesharing a serious crime. It's one thing to worry about a warning from my ISP or a potential lawsuit from the RIAA, but dang....going to jail for p2p? I guess I'm going offtopic here. Regarding the "downloading lawsuit", it don't think it would be cost effective for them to go after those. It's not that easy to figure out what someone is really sharing on most p2p now, so they only know about 1 file in most cases. They want the big uploaders.

[Panacea]

If not already mentioned (this thread got very infomation dense very quickly, and my eyes are sore) perhapes the way you get sued for downloading is if you then share what you downloaded.

The solution to this is simple, don't listen to RIAA crap, don't live in america, and meditate upon why capitalism rots humanity.

honestly, RIAA are only interested in music they own, and I don't know any popular music that I like or that anyone should like so just don't listen or distribute the crap.

[Arch Stanton]

sounds like the reporter was just generalizing and wouldn't really be aware of what constitues downloading and uploading much less what the hell p2p is. there may actually be a way they could monior just downloading but seems like they'd either have to have their eye on you already, or you would have to get nabbed at a bunk site (i haven't heard of this happening even, has anyone else?). I think to just try and monitor downloading poses way to large a task to accomplish anything - kind of going after a swarm of locusts with a fly swatter. p2p tracking allows them to go after the major offenders with the least possible effort.