Buying/copying CDs Legal issues

[icarus]

I don't really know where I'm going on this one, it's 1am and I just suddenly thought of it, so feel free to close the thread when it gets silly.

I was basically thinking about the current DVD deCSS ruling, and I got thinking, you know how you're not allowed to copy your DVD for your own backup? (or say CD), well... where is that written?

So if I give mr record store my money and he gives me a CD in box, it's mine to do what I want with right?

Copyright law says you can't copy an authors work without the express permission of the copyright holder. Do we not get into some sort of zen/abstract thing. "explain to me mr record label how you own the pits on the metal sheet of the CD and also the sound created when you pass those pits over a laser spinning at xxy rpm decoded at 44.1 khz at 16 bit.."

surely if I passed cotton wool over a laser with the right algorithm it'd sound like something? at what point does it stop?

Just trying to bounce an idea about...

[gumdrop ink]

yes your right and im sure most of the peep would agree with youb but unfortunaly you humans live on a planet where who ever has the most money is always right and has the power to make you wrong

[CompuGeek]

I was basically thinking about the current DVD deCSS ruling, and I got thinking, you know how you're not allowed to copy your DVD for your own backup? (or say CD), well... where is that written?

So if I give mr record store my money and he gives me a CD in box, it's mine to do what I want with right?

Copyright law says you can't copy an authors work without the express permission of the copyright holder. Do we not get into some sort of zen/abstract thing. "explain to me mr record label how you own the pits on the metal sheet of the CD and also the sound created when you pass those pits over a laser spinning at xxy rpm decoded at 44.1 khz at 16 bit.."

You don't really buy a CD or DVD, you buy a license to make personal use of a particular copyrighted work.

DVDs and newer audio CDs have copyright protection built into them. The Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 (DMCA) makes it illegal to circumvent copyright protection mechanisms.

There is an established legal precedent of "Fair Use" that says you can make a backup copy for personal use of copyrighted material you have purchased a licensed copy of. Unfortunately it is illegal to make any copies for fair use if you have to circumvent copyright protection, such as CSS on DVDs.

[Scyth77521]

You don't really buy a CD or DVD, you buy a license to make personal use of a particular copyrighted work.

If you believe that, you've been brainwashed by the recording industry. You don't need a license to access a copyrighted work. If you own a copy of a work, you have the right to use however you want just like any other property. The only exception is you might not be allowed to copy it.

[CompuGeek]

If you believe that, you've been brainwashed by the recording industry. You don't need a license to access a copyrighted work. If you own a copy of a work, you have the right to use however you want just like any other property. The only exception is you might not be allowed to copy it.

When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work, you agree to abide by the terms of the Licensing Agreement. If the Licensing Agreement says, "You are not allowed to do anything but listen to this CD at home in the dark on headphones in your underwear," then they can sue you for doing anything else.

[Malicious Intent]

According to ZPs clock, you posted at 1am GMT. It really does depend on where you are in the world. In the UK, we have never had fair use rights. It is theoretically a criminal offence to turn a protected pdf file into a Word file.
You arn't allowed to break any copyright protection, although by the laws definition of copyright protection, if you can break it, then it wasn't protection anyway! I doubt the courts will see it that way. There are exceptions if you are blind, but then you can't tell anyone how you did it.
My point is that the laws are very stick, although badly written. I wouldn't like to be the first into court proving that I didn't break copyright protection as by my breaking it, it wasn't protection.

[shawners]

you really need to go to bed and stop thinking =)

[Lehk]

When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work, you agree to abide by the terms of the Licensing Agreement. If the Licensing Agreement says, "You are not allowed to do anything but listen to this CD at home in the dark on headphones in your underwear," then they can sue you for doing anything else.

Wrong! If the Licence agreement says "you may only distribute this work if you sit in the dark in your underwear" it is enforcable, what you do with that CD is your buisness unless you illegally distribute it illegally, the same holds true for EULA's on software, they are also unenforcable because the copying involved in installation and running is clearly under fair use, you purchased it and are using it for yourself.

[CompuGeek]

Wrong! If the Licence agreement says "you may only distribute this work if you sit in the dark in your underwear" it is enforcable, what you do with that CD is your buisness unless you illegally distribute it illegally, the same holds true for EULA's on software, they are also unenforcable because the copying involved in installation and running is clearly under fair use, you purchased it and are using it for yourself.

I'm not a legal expert, but I'm pretty sure that if you piss off a copyright holder, a violation of a License Agreement is more than enough reason for a team of expensive lawyers to sue you for everything you have. Unless you have a team of expensive lawyers you'll probably lose.

[Scyth77521]

When you buy a copy of a copyrighted work, you agree to abide by the terms of the Licensing Agreement. If the Licensing Agreement says, "You are not allowed to do anything but listen to this CD at home in the dark on headphones in your underwear," then they can sue you for doing anything else.

I've never agreed to a license agreement when buying music or movies and I don't think anyone else has either.

Even if there were a license, in the US agreements without consideration are unenforable. Consideration, in this sense, means the party offering the contract has to give the party signing the contract something in exchange for the things being agreed to. This is why I can't say something like "By reading the entirety of this post, you agree to pay me $100 a month for the rest of your life".

[CompuGeek]

I've never agreed to a license agreement when buying music or movies and I don't think anyone else has either.

Even if there were a license, in the US agreements without consideration are unenforable. Consideration, in this sense, means the party offering the contract has to give the party signing the contract something in exchange for the things being agreed to. This is why I can't say something like "By reading the entirety of this post, you agree to pay me $100 a month for the rest of your life".

It is still a legal grey area, but technically a "shrink-warp licensing agreement" is a legal contract you agree to when you open up a CD or a DVD or a piece of software and it has fine print somewhere that tells you what you can and can't do.

[Scyth77521]

It is still a legal grey area, but technically a "shrink-warp licensing agreement" is a legal contract you agree to when you open up a CD or a DVD or a piece of software and it has fine print somewhere that tells you what you can and can't do.

I've never seen a music CD with a shrink-wrap license.

On top of that, you're quite write that it's a legal gray area. Depending on the circumstances, US courts have gone both ways when deciding whether shrink- or click- wrap licenses were enforceable.

[CompuGeek]

I've never seen a music CD with a shrink-wrap license.

On top of that, you're quite write that it's a legal gray area. Depending on the circumstances, US courts have gone both ways when deciding whether shrink- or click- wrap licenses were enforceable.

For CDs it's a simple "DO NOT COPY THIS DISC."

DVDs have all the terms in the big warning screen at the beginning that everyone ignores. Something like "for private home viewing only. Don't copy this of the FBI will kick your ass."

Software actually has enough fine print to really call it a Licensing Agreement.

Whatever fine print any copyrighted media has is a legal contract that will probably (unless you can afford a good lawyer) hold up in court.

[Scyth77521]

No, 'Do not copy this disc' is not a contract. If getting someone to enter a contract was as simple as showing them text, well then SEND ME MONEY. Legally, in order to enter into a contract, I have to give something and receive something in return. That statement doesn't offer anything, nor does it even ask me to offer anything. Those statements on discs are only there to remind you that it's illegal to copy the disc (in general), not because you've agreed not to, but because you're legally bound not to.

[CompuGeek]

No, 'Do not copy this disc' is not a contract. If getting someone to enter a contract was as simple as showing them text, well then SEND ME MONEY. Legally, in order to enter into a contract, I have to give something and receive something in return. That statement doesn't offer anything, nor does it even ask me to offer anything. Those statements on discs are only there to remind you that it's illegal to copy the disc (in general), not because you've agreed not to, but because you're legally bound not to.

Sorry, that was a bad example. What I mean is that the big warnings in Software and DVDs are licensing restrictions and they could put something like that on CDs if they wanted to tell you what you could do instead of limiting what you can do with copyright-protected CDs.

[CompuGeek]

How about a specific example:

If you bought a music CD and it had a big warning that said "You may only listen to this in your car," you would be violating the licensing terms by listening to it outside your car. Technically they could sue you for that.

Would they win? Probably not for my silly example, but that's the way it works.

[Scyth77521]

Sorry, that was a bad example. What I mean is that the big warnings in Software and DVDs are licensing restrictions and they could put something like that on CDs if they wanted to tell you what you could do instead of limiting what you can do with copyright-protected CDs.

The warnings on DVDs still aren't a contract. I can't enter into a contract by sitting passively and looking at something. And even I had to take some action, it's still not an enforcable contract unless I get something in return.

[CompuGeek]

The warnings on DVDs still aren't a contract. I can't enter into a contract by sitting passively and looking at something. And even I had to take some action, it's still not an enforcable contract unless I get something in return.

You get to watch the movie in return to agreeing to any restrictions they set on how you can use it. :gj

[shawners]

i never understood the home viewing part.. Where else would i watch the movie and stuff??? At least music doesnt have the first track saying this is for your home use only.. and any further use of this product will result with artist whinning how much money they are losing.

[Siskabush]

when you buy a CD (RIAA/CRIA affiliated), you have a license to listen to the music. You own the plastic CD, The case, and the cool insert. The music is still thiers. You just have the right to listen to it.

Its BS, just rip the damn thing, and burn it.

"If its not on radio, or in the CD store, youre free to download it" - Siskabush

(That saying applies to the music I listen to, and justifies it. If you download just because, then its cool :D)

[Malicious Intent]

Software actually has enough fine print to really call it a Licensing Agreement.

Most software has all that stuff after you purchase the software. In the UK, you can't add rules to a contract after it has already been agreed (I.E. When you paid for the software). Theoritically, you therefore don't have to do anything it says, even if you do have to tick "I agree". There was a case against National Car Parks, where a driver got his ticket from the barrier on the way in. Once inside the car park, he saw a sign saying "users park here at their own risk". He parked anyway and had his car broken into. The driver said that the car park should have had some protection. The "park here at your own risk" was added after he had taken the ticket, which is when the contract was made. The courts agreed.

[icarus]

[QUOTE=Siskabush]when you buy a CD (RIAA/CRIA affiliated), you have a license to listen to the music. You own the plastic CD, The case, and the cool insert. The music is still thiers. You just have the right to listen to it.
QUOTE]

So should I be able to buy all the cds Ive had people borrow from me and scratch again at the cost of the plastic as I already own the license?

[CompuGeek]

[QUOTE=Siskabush]when you buy a CD (RIAA/CRIA affiliated), you have a license to listen to the music. You own the plastic CD, The case, and the cool insert. The music is still thiers. You just have the right to listen to it.
QUOTE]

So should I be able to buy all the cds Ive had people borrow from me and scratch again at the cost of the plastic as I already own the license?

Software companies will usually do that for a small fee. You send them a damaged disc and they send you a new one.

[CompuGeek]

Most software has all that stuff after you purchase the software. In the UK, you can't add rules to a contract after it has already been agreed (I.E. When you paid for the software). Theoritically, you therefore don't have to do anything it says, even if you do have to tick "I agree". There was a case against National Car Parks, where a driver got his ticket from the barrier on the way in. Once inside the car park, he saw a sign saying "users park here at their own risk". He parked anyway and had his car broken into. The driver said that the car park should have had some protection. The "park here at your own risk" was added after he had taken the ticket, which is when the contract was made. The courts agreed.

Well in America the law is on the side of whoever has the most money. :cross

[Wolfie]

At least music doesnt have the first track saying this is for your home use only.. and any further use of this product will result with artist whinning how much money they are losing.

I would not be surprised if they started doing that the way things are going. They are starting to put put FBI logo on the CDs for the copyright agreement statement.

[Scyth77521]

You own the plastic CD, The case, and the cool insert. The music is still thiers. You just have the right to listen to it.

No, that's simply not true, at least in the US or Canada. In both those countries, you cannot own music. If you buy something, you can do whatever you want with it, with a few exceptions. In the case of something copyrighted, those exceptions include copying it. But the important point is, what you can and can't do with a copyrighted work is not determined by you starting with no rights and then being granted a few rights, it's determined by you starting with full rights and then giving up some of these rights. Legally, this is how things work in the US and Canada.

If you care about filesharing, it incredibly important that you understand this. That's because once you understand that copyrights are about removing your rights, not about protecting artists rights, you start questioning if it's in your interest to give up your rights. If it's not, the law should be changed. We, the public, need to start arguing for changes. But if the public doesn't understand the basic principles of copyright law, how can we argue effectively?

So stop being ignorant about copyright law. You can easily find both US and Canadian copyright law online. They're a little dense, but you don't need to be a lawyer to get through it.

[CompuGeek]

So stop being ignorant about copyright law. You can easily find both US and Canadian copyright law online. They're a little dense, but you don't need to be a lawyer to get through it.

Yeah, and you can easily find both US and Canadian contract law online.

If you want to eliminate the grey area about whether it's legally binding, they can just have you sign an agreement at the cash register instead of just including fine print.

[Scyth77521]

If you want to eliminate the grey area about whether it's legally binding, they can just have you sign an agreement at the cash register instead of just including fine print.

The fine print on CDs is not a gray area, it's clearly not a contract. And sure, they could make you sign something or they could use a shrink-wrap license, but they don't.

[icarus]

The fine print on CDs is not a gray area, it's clearly not a contract. And sure, they could make you sign something or they could use a shrink-wrap license, but they don't.

I remember when I used to work for a small software company years ago, and we had to get around the fact that if someone bought our software on credit card, they were eligable to get a refund if it didn't work. Obviously, we couldn't tell if they were telling the truth or not so we wrapped everything in a giant label which said "you forfeit your rights for a refund" on it.

I've not seen the same label on a CD. I've also taken a CD back to the store and said "I bought this album yesterday and I think it's shit, can i swap it for..." and they've let me.

I've only ever taken a CD back once, that one time, because I was so appalled by it. I should have copied it before I took it back but I didn't.
Many might though. I imagine there are many people taking CDs back to the store after they copy them.

Maybe there should be a sticker on the actual CD

[CompuGeek]

The fine print on CDs is not a gray area, it's clearly not a contract. And sure, they could make you sign something or they could use a shrink-wrap license, but they don't.

I said the CD was a bad example. Licensing Agreements are more of a software thing.

[CompuGeek]

My Summary:

icarus started this thread because he wants to know "So if I give mr record store my money and he gives me a CD in box, it's mine to do what I want with right?"

My answer is that it is illegal to circumvent copyright protection built into CDs because of the DMCA. If you don't have to break a copyright protection scheme, you can do whatever you want with the CD as long as you don't share copies.

My debateable opinion is that they can set licensing restrictions on the CD if they want (like they do now with software) and legally you would have to abide by any usage restrictions they include in fine print. But that is only if they decided to try that approach instead of using protected discs like they do now.

[tikitanaka]

Here's the deal: the music industry has been walking on both sides of the licensing agreement for years. Supposedly, when you buy a Cd, you are buying not just the plastic- but the license to listen to the music. Yet, when my CD gets stolen, scratched, lost, etc I should be able to replace it by paying again for just the cost of the plastic- lets say .25 cents or so, throw in postage, taking it to $1 to replace my CD. Because I've already paid for, and own the license to listen to the music. Does this happen? No. So if that's not the case, and they won't replace my lost CD for cost, then I in fact own the CD, and the music when I buy it, and I may do with it as I please. I can copy it, sell the copy, loan it, share it, etc. Right? No, and if that's not the case, then it's the other side of the coin that applies: once I buy a CD, I own the license to that music for my own personal use forever. If I lose the physical CD for whatever reason, I still own the license. I can download it again off the net if I please, or copy a friends. I can, and will download any and every CD I have ever bought and lost, had stolen, got scratched, etc. I bought the license, I own it.

[CountZero]

Here's the deal: the music industry has been walking on both sides of the licensing agreement for years. Supposedly, when you buy a Cd, you are buying not just the plastic- but the license to listen to the music. Yet, when my CD gets stolen, scratched, lost, etc I should be able to replace it by paying again for just the cost of the plastic- lets say .25 cents or so, throw in postage, taking it to $1 to replace my CD. Because I've already paid for, and own the license to listen to the music. Does this happen? No. So if that's not the case, and they won't replace my lost CD for cost, then I in fact own the CD, and the music when I buy it, and I may do with it as I please. I can copy it, sell the copy, loan it, share it, etc. Right? No, and if that's not the case, then it's the other side of the coin that applies: once I buy a CD, I own the license to that music for my own personal use forever. If I lose the physical CD for whatever reason, I still own the license. I can download it again off the net if I please, or copy a friends. I can, and will download any and every CD I have ever bought and lost, had stolen, got scratched, etc. I bought the license, I own it.

true enought although i doubt that the courts would see it that way

[CompuGeek]

Here's a quote from an article related to this thread.

"...contracts are being used to restrict the normal freedom given to users by copyright law in general. Contract trumps copyright, at least in the United States and Europe, which means the courts will typically arbitrate disputes based on contract and not intellectual property law per se. This is already an interesting development because of what we tend to call the shrink-wrap phenomenon: digital content is being sold in a manner more akin to software than tangible content, although even there, software buyers typically have more rights."

Check out the article if you're interested:
http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1080673153.html

[Lehk]

when you buy a CD (RIAA/CRIA affiliated), you have a license to listen to the music. You own the plastic CD, The case, and the cool insert. The music is still thiers. You just have the right to listen to it.

Its BS, just rip the damn thing, and burn it.

"If its not on radio, or in the CD store, youre free to download it" - Siskabush

(That saying applies to the music I listen to, and justifies it. If you download just because, then its cool :D)

No you own the CD, you only require a license to distribute copies of a copyrighted work (in the US anyways) software companies are full of scheister with their "By making a copy to your hard drive/memory you agree that...." or "by downloading this file you agree that...." or even "by entering this web page you agree....", the last example usually complete with "......you won't tell the cops about the child porn"

[Lehk]

My Summary:

....My debateable opinion is that they can set licensing restrictions on the CD if they want (like they do now with software) and legally you would have to abide by any usage restrictions they include in fine print. But that is only if they decided to try that approach instead of using protected discs like they do now.

Nope, saying "by....you agree...." does not bind you in any way..... otherwise i could release a freeware program that had a EULA that said something along the lines of "By installing this software you agree to forfeit immediately your entire net worth to me" and have it phone home to my web site, thus allowing me to identify IP addresses, file lawsuits against those infringing, then be set for life. Now if i released a freeware app with "By redistributing this software you agree to forfeit immediately your entire net worth to me" and wait for it to show up on freeware sites i may be able to get a few dollars in damages, but even then i wouldn't get all i was contractually "entitled" to since a contract does not consits of sending a file or clicking a button, a contract exists if you sign something or certain implied contracts such as a purchase of goods counts as a contract (A minor is legally exempt from "no returns" policies at stores... Heh should send my 17 year old brother to a CD store with a few hundred bucks.... have him buy stuff, copy it all, then force the store to accept the return on all the opened merchandise... I would really love to stick it to F.Y.E. fvking $18 for a CD)

[edit]
Damn..... I have two posts in a row in this thread (and an old one on the first page of replys)

[begoodbebad]

You couldn't do any of that because what lots of people are forgetting in an orgy of pedantic hair splitting is that a consumer contract has to be *reasonable* to be enforceable. Maybe some people here should talk less and read more. The copyright agreement is small but in plain sight on all of my purchased CDs. Not that I give a shit.

Can we all go back to ripping our CDs now? Thx.

[nEo420]

Postd 4 a frend.
------------------------
My Summary:

icarus started this thread because he wants to know "So if I give mr record store my money and he gives me a CD in box, it's mine to do what I want with right?"

My answer is that it is illegal to circumvent copyright protection built into CDs because of the DMCA. If you don't have to break a copyright protection scheme, you can do whatever you want with the CD as long as you don't share copies.

Acutally it is NOT illegal to circumvent copyright protection, under the DMCA. It is illegal to sell things that circumvent copyright protection.

But it is illegal to both circumvent access control mechanisms and sell things that circumvent access control mechanisms.

My debateable opinion is that they can set licensing restrictions on the CD if they want (like they do now with software) and legally you would have to abide by any usage restrictions they include in fine print. But that is only if they decided to try that approach instead of using protected discs like they do now.

You can claim contract law trumps other laws, only if you can prove that BOTH parties had an acknowledged agreement. Courts have held that printing "you agree" on something is not enough.

In response to the comment on purchasing a CD being a "license" to access the content; it is not. Purchasing a CD is covered under first-sale. This doctrine separates the rights of a copyright holder, from the rights of the owner of a copy.

The basic principle of "first-sale" says that if something seems like a sale it probably is a sale. To be a lease there are certain things that must happen that do not happen when you purchase most CDs.

So when you buy a CD you own the copy. That gives you certains rights over that piece of your property, just like with any other piece of property. For one you can sell it, non-commercially loan it, or give it away.

Just to make it clear, they wrote it into the law:
§ 109 · Limitations on exclusive rights:
Effect of transfer of particular copy or phonorecord.
(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

With a video, you can even rent it out. However that right was removed for music and software.

§ 109 · (b)(1)(A) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), unless authorized by the owners of copyright in the sound recording or the owner of copyright in a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program), and in the case of a sound recording in the musical works embodied therein, neither the owner of a particular phonorecord nor any person in possession of a particular copy of a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program), may, for the purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage, dispose of, or authorize the disposal of, the possession of that phonorecord or computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program) by rental, lease, or lending, or by any other act or practice in the nature of rental, lease, or lending. Nothing in the preceding sentence shall apply to the rental, lease, or lending of a phonorecord for nonprofit purposes by a nonprofit library or nonprofit educational Institution.

[CompuGeek]

But it is illegal to both circumvent access control mechanisms and sell things that circumvent access control mechanisms.

It seems strange that if I bought a CD nowadays, I have no device that could legally play it.