Would You Settle, or Would You Fight?

[Anonymous Proxy]

So, I'm playing the fantasy game...

If the RIAA sued me, would I settle, or would I fight?

I don't know. I'd like to fight of course, but going into it knowing I'd probably get my ass kicked in the end, would it be worth it?

The first thing I'm thinking though, is if I settled for $15,000 I could probably pay that. On the other hand if they sued me for $150,000 per song, and I had a 1,000 songs, I could never be expected to pay that. So I wouldn't.

Could I file for bankruptcy? Would that protect me? How would that effect my credit rating?

I'd like to fight the suit, and make a lot of noise doing it. Keep them in court for about twenty years. Drive the court costs up. I couldn't afford to pay those either, so I wouldn't.

Still I don't know for sure what I'd do if the subpoena ever came in the mail.

[jonnymnemonic]

I'd go to court, without a lawyer. You see, I'm one of those stay-away-from-government people. I have no visible means of income (e.g. no paycheck to garnish), no car, nothing of value, no bank accounts, and no credit cards, nor do I want any of those things. My woman (who is not married to me, so she is safe) has everything in her name EXCEPT the ISP account. So, what can they really do to me? Financially I cannot be squeezed, so whatever damages I am assessed they have no means to collect on, and I won't pay a settlement, no matter how little it is. I don't care about bankruptcy, because I don't use or want credit, and I wouldn't pay for that either.

When you have nothing, nobody can take anything away from you. I like the feeling of freedom that gives me! ;)

[Caitlyn Marble]

I'd fight. Since I'm a minor though, my parents would probably settle. Easily intimidated you see.

[lizardsforall]

Think Like Henry David Thoreau...

Jail is nothing but free housing, food, and daily exercise.

The real problem occurs when you get in the same cell as a mass murderer and you tell him/her that you downloaded stuff from the web!

Hope that helps your game.

[Pebbles100]

Nice thread! Haven't seen one yet with this topic. I would try my hardest not to settle. Either way, I would end up spending the little money I have saved on either lawyer or a settlement. I would try to hire a lawyer, and stretch it as far as it could go. *shrugs shoulders*
I read somewhere that you can't write the debt off, even through bankruptcy. I'm not 100% sure, since the info wasn't from a lawyer.

[que-em]

The difference between me and that little girl is that I don't have 2000 dollars to give away.
The only way I could pay is if they give me a credit card to pay them with...of course after that I'll default on the payments and they will be added to my list of annoying bill collectors calling me for money I don't have.

By the way, don't record companies like any other business write off loses.

[cheapprick]

Originally posted by jonnymnemonic
I'd go to court, without a lawyer. You see, I'm one of those stay-away-from-government people. I have no visible means of income (e.g. no paycheck to garnish), no car, nothing of value, no bank accounts, and no credit cards, nor do I want any of those things. You see, I am a drug dealer.

Sorry, I had to change that a bit. heh

I shouldn't laugh, I have no visible means of income either, it's all student loan.

It will be interesting to see if this sort of intimidation tactic will try to move north. I would refuse to setle though, both on principle and my chances.

[aqlo]

You see, I am a drug dealer. Great groundwork you guys. The thing that I can add (from experience) is that is unnecessary even considering paying most debts like this. If you run out on a lease or get a car repo'd or whatever then outrageous claims may be made, with various courtlike stuff, for some length of time. New collection agencies may further distort the deal, never ever pay a collection agency. If you ever do decide to pay something, say a hospital bill, even if it's 10 years later, pay the hospital whatever you can and worry about it.

Collection guys are pods with fake jobs.

[shawners]

You can file bankruptcy. but during bankruptcy progress when you go to have it cleared, the creditors can appear and you may have to pay that. Or they could put a lien on you or judgement. So if you ever bought or sold anything you would have to settle your claim.
I would diffently after the lawsuit file bankruptcy.. but how do you handle the idea of being in prison? their asking for five years or something in prison.. Being first time offender you could get probation or something.. but the system could be as currupt and send you away long time.

[REDO]

I would fight 'till the end. Then if I lost, I would drive my car into their headquarters....

[Redneck4sure]

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose - Kris Kristofferson (Bobby McGee)


jonnymnemonic, I think you are real close to being free and it certainly sounds like you are what lawyers call, "judgement proof". They can't get blood out of a turnip as the saying goes.

cheapprick, I love your sense of humor!

[kuajmc]

hmmm how about making a settlement that you'll buy those cd's you've downloaded? which means that the artists will get their cash.

Riaa get less then they'll get with their settlement option, because there is no fucking way i believe that they'll pay the artists (one has downloaded from) compensation...
as they'll probably put settlement money in their own pockets to take out more kids.

It's sounds fair or atleast say that you'll split your fine equally and want a written proof of documents that the artists got the cash and it's not in riaa's hands.

[Pebbles100]

Shawners, that 's a good point. So if they could place leins on your property, I wonder if they withhold your tax return? Or garnish your wages? Wow - that would financially devastate alot of people. :(

[aqlo]

No they can't pebbles, liens yes. In many states it is illegal to even imply that they can garnish, you need a custodial judge like in child support or tax evasion in order to accomplish it at all.

[Pebbles100]

Feww! I was getting worried there for a sec. ! thanx aqlo :)

[Redneck4sure]

Pebbles, the laws vary from state to state. There are also different types of bankrupcy. (chapter 7, chapter 11, chapter 13). Chapter 7 is "I am broke and have no means to pay". Chapter 11 is mostly businesses reorganization. Chapter 13 is "I want to keep most of my stuff and make smaller payments". How much you can keep depends on your abilty to pay, which chapter you file, and what state you live in, which items are "secured" and which items are "unsecured" and other variables. You can not bankrupt out certain items such as student loans, income tax and fraud. You may get some relief on the payments, however.
Is piracy considered fraud? I do not know. If it is, you are in trouble and will not be able bankrupt it out. I know a guy that was sued by Microsoft for piracy. It cost too much to defend so he filed bankrupcy and never paid them a dime. Maybe they did not want to persue it. Maybe they could not persue it. I don't know.
Some states will garnish your wages. Others will not and like a previous post stated, it is illegal to threaten you with it.
The laws vary greatly from state to state. At a minimum they can damage your credit. If they get a judgement against you that cannot be bankrupted out, you will be unable to buy or sell property until the judgement is paid. They can not, however, put you in jail. We do not have "debtors prisons" in this country.
If you read where the police have arrested someone and charged them with piracy, those people are facing the prospect of going to jail. That is a criminal complaint.
The RIAA can sue for money. That is a civil complaint.
I am fairly knowledgeable on the laws in my state (don't ask why! lol) but not other states. Also I am NOT an attorney. If someone claims I am wrong, I refuse to argue. Advice is worth what you pay for it. Mine is free!

[Pebbles100]

I never realized how much financial strain is envolved until this thread was posted. Seems like bankruptcy would be the best senario if anything like this ever happened [depending on the judgement amount of course]. I'm not familliar with law - just enough to slide through! :) Thanks for the advice Redneck4sure - you guys have been a big help.

[HyperspaceSamurai]

I only have debt. Ten of thousands of dollars in debt so I guess it would be either Mexico or Jail. I guess if I fought I’d get a public defender or something, wouldn’t I? After all these are criminal charges. This is a complicated question. Fight if I could, run if I had to.

Pero si viene el policía viviré en México y trabajaré como estrella de los moives del sexo.

[Anonymous Proxy]

As I understand it, you're only going to be charged as a criminal if you're making money illegally from someone else's copyright, correct?

If all you're doing is downloading music to listen to, that's just a civil suit right?

[Redneck4sure]

People get arrested and/or sued for commercial piracy. (Making money). This p2p issue is simply a civil lawsuit for money. In the future it may involve criminal prosecutions but it hasn't gone there yet. No one has been charged with a criminal complaint for downloading.

[shawners]

their also saying that downloading it, and willfulling acuiring it illegally is and will be like profiting from it. You saved yourself money say 100 dollars, thats 100 dollars that you profited.
I cant see going to jail cause the fact that are tax paying dollars be paying for more inmates, and taking away tax payers out of the system and by default making heavy tax burdens on the rest of us.

[aqlo]

AP the precedent I think you are pointing at is a fairly recent decision in the supreme court on Scheidler vs NOW to the effect that federal racketeering laws (RICO) could not be used against protesters because while they were conspiring together to commit statutory crimes in multiple states, they had no intention of profiting by it in a business sense.

This reflects a principle in common law that a person who commits a crime for money is the only appropriate target for special statutes and interpretations designed to combat organized crime. When Jimmy the Seal had 37 people knocked off and it was just business, they might only be able to catch him with one. But because it WAS business there were added circumstances at the sentencing that made sure he went to the chair. Some poor bum in a barfight who punched a guy who later died of it, those penalties don't apply to him.

But he's still a criminal. They just can't electrocute him for having a conversation with someone in ny about it like they could Jimmy the Seal.

Red i still haven't found a state that can garnish for civil debts, I'm hoping to see how the judge could retain custody of the case there, if you know of one. I checked NY first pebbles, you're in the clear I think. (You were always in the clear in FL, it's a debtor's paradise.)

[cjules13]

It would of course depend on any precedents that have yet to be set. Wait until the first person is successfuly proven guilty, and then I would make my choice whether to fight or settle. But of course, I'm not getting caught anyway...moohaha...:shy

[rainbowdemon]

I would fight. I don't know how I would come up with all of the legal fees, but I would think of something. I refuse to be intimidated.

[FutureIverson]

Originally posted by kuajmc
hmmm how about making a settlement that you'll buy those cd's you've downloaded? which means that the artists will get their cash.

Riaa get less then they'll get with their settlement option, because there is no fucking way i believe that they'll pay the artists (one has downloaded from) compensation...
as they'll probably put settlement money in their own pockets to take out more kids.

It's sounds fair or atleast say that you'll split your fine equally and want a written proof of documents that the artists got the cash and it's not in riaa's hands.

good idea, but they'd make more money sueing you a coupel hundred for every song. then 15 dollars for each cD.

[jonnymnemonic]

They'd also want you to buy a CD for every person who downloaded one from you. Maybe more, because then people probably downloaded those same CDs from THAT person, and so on.

Plus, they like to slap some punitive damages on top of everything anyway, to discourage you (and others) from repeating the same crime. And they'll want to add on their legal fees and court costs too (which is allowed).

So, no, they aren't likely to just want the money for the CDs you were sharing. They'll want more, probably quite a lot more.

[jonnymnemonic]

Here's a defense for you if you go to court.

When John Titor was in this timestream (see http://www.johntitor.com/) *he* gave you all the music that he had brought back in time, and in his time there were no copyrights on the music. So you merely shared music that was a copy of music that was not copyrighted. Then let them prove that John Titor *wasn't* from the future. ;)

[method]

I guess most of you have ISP accounts in your own names.

now you know my big secret about not getting busted!

Peace!

[Anonymous Proxy]

I have another question:

If you did decide to fight, what would your defence be?

If you didn't plan to pay anyway, you'd probably want to keep the case in court as long as possible to run up the meter, so to speak. How would you do that?

On some filesharers file listings won't disappear from the shared folder unless refreshed. Could I say the offending files were in there only briefly, before anyone had a chance to share them, then I forgot to refresh? Translation: is there some way to lie?

Here's one I'm curious about -- If I was being sued I'd want to make as much noise as possible about it. Is that a good policy? I don't see the people who have been sued so far doing this. They don't even post to Zeropaid.

[eclectica]

Originally posted by Anonymous Proxy
I have another question:

If you did decide to fight, what would your defence be?

If you didn't plan to pay anyway, you'd probably want to keep the case in court as long as possible to run up the meter, so to speak. How would you do that?

On some filesharers file listings won't disappear from the shared folder unless refreshed. Could I say the offending files were in there only briefly, before anyone had a chance to share them, then I forgot to refresh? Translation: is there some way to lie?

Here's one I'm curious about -- If I was being sued I'd want to make as much noise as possible about it. Is that a good policy? I don't see the people who have been sued so far doing this. They don't even post to Zeropaid.
Your defense is that their proof is not all that good. Cast doubt on their ability to come up with substantive evidence which definitely proves that you are engaged in copyright infringement. Remember, they don't have possession of your computer, so they don't have much evidence. They don't know how many of those mp3s are created from CDs you bought already.

Let them come up with the evidence first, and then you can refute it. Maintain your cool.

I don't think the RIAA is planning on taking anyone to trial. If you get one of their legal letters, throw it in the garbage. That's what I do when lawyers for collection agencies send me their threatening letters because my HMO didn't pay some doctor. Only worry if it is an official court summons.

They probably don't want to mess with a p2p person, because that person won't settle and may be a charismatic figure like Dr. Kevorkian, who defies them in court.

Settlements are the best thing that can happen for them.

[eclectica]

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/jury_nullification/jury_nullification.shtml

Don't forget to argue the merits of jury nullification, which means that juries not only judge the facts of the case but the law itself, regardless of the instructions the judge gives. The DMCA should be nullified by any jury that hears a case related to it.