Can musicians still make money, given file sharing is legal?

[CaptainMorgan]

Originally posted by Thalus999
How much should I charge for a CD then? I charge $10 to $12 which covers the cost of pressing, printing, transportation and maybe $3 extra. If I sell 10 at a concert, it is a good night. The big $30 I make barely pays my gas to get to the gig. And, in case you never worked as a musician, most gigs pay crap. So it is a challenge to keep food on the table. File sharing is killing independent musicians like me and my band.

You are right -- the music stands on its own. It is a big hit on Kaaza. But I don't get a damn thing from that. And I deserve it!

I actually believe that there are many ways for musicians to earn a very nice living in the age of free file sharing. It is just that most of them have not been invented yet.

I am hoping this thread can be a place for constructively brainstorming these types of ideas.

Let me start with a few. Just to get people thinking.

Live Shows
1) Use mp3s to promote your live shows. Make every show interesting and different. Record each show make mp3s and give them away on the internet.

2) There is an industry of Grateful Dead fans that pay cover to go to every show and record the concerts because each show is different. Encourage this.

3) Sell backstage passes. Bands are cool. People love to party with the band. Make them buy your drinks.

Mp3s
1) Give your content free to internet radio stations. They will happy to not have to pay royalty fees. This is a significant advantage for unsigned bands like yours.

2) Mp3 files have ID3 tags that you can used to put interesting and valuable information, like your web site address.

3) Put your show schedule in the ID3 tags.

4) Add secret messages. Make subtle changes (versions) of your songs. Make them collectable. Release them at different times, like U.S. state quarters. Charge a small donation to download the rare versions from your web site.

5) Sell custom dedicated versions of songs.

Your Message
1) Sell your message. Are you a politically active band? Do you have a cause? Create a non-profit corporation to support this cause. Do good and pay yourself a salary. Promote your cause at your shoes.

2) Sell your ideas and attitude. Tell me that people thronged to see punk bands because of their artistry. Be different, sell different.

3) Sell other products that support your message. Sarcastic items are always a big seller. Offer special items only to people who attend your shows. I saw a band called "The Ringwalds" once and although I thought they were mediocre at best. There was a girl wearing a group t-shirt that said, "I can't believe I gave my panties to a geek." I would pay cover at another show just to buy that shirt, for my wife.

Web Site
1) Have an active community website. They are easy to create using free software and can be hosted for as little as $3 per month.

2) Sell things on your web site, besides CD's. CafePress with print T-shirts, mugs, lunch boxes, etc. on demand for you with zero set-up charge and no advanced overhead.

3) Have a members site. Ask for a small monthly fee. Be interesting and give people a look into your world. Musicians are cool.

4) Take part in associates programs. These programs pay you money if you refer customers to them and they buy things. It is free and can make you some extra cash.

5) Have your own associates program. Let other people promote your goods in exchange for a small commission.

Plastic Discs
If you are still intend on selling the actual round pieces plastic. There are many things you can do to make people want to buy them.

1) Full disclosure seems to be a popular idea on this site. Publish on the outside of the CD your rational for the price. For instance, "I worked on this for 6 months, I am printing 1000 copies. The cost is $x.xx. I have these expenses: graphic artist, $xxx.xx; recording engineer, $xxx.xx; manufacturing and printing, $xxx.xx; musician's salary, $xxx.xx; Stress the people this sale will benefit. Don't whine. Pick your price and explain it. People with respect it even if it is too high.

2) If your costs are high. Encourage people to pool their money, buy one CD and make copies for themselves.

3) Don't make them round. You can have CD's made in all sorts of clever shapes. Make them collectors items. Give them holograms.

4) Make them DVD audio disks, it is the next big thing.

5) Make them enhanced CDs. Give people some clever extra content.


I could probably go on longer, but now it is someone else's turn.

CaptainMorgan

[aqlo]

Make your song as widely known as you possibly can, so that it is on everyone's lips and in everyone's ears and they love it with their whole heart.

Then sell it to Coke or AT&T or Smith&Wesson, whoever you like, and watch the money roll in with each commercial and each new campaign.

[tMoD]

CaptainMorgan, despite our disagreement in another thread, I want to commend you for your efforts here, and in the legal argument thread. Here is my offering to this thread: have a pledge drive, like public broadcasting. I can hear people groaning but hear me out: appeal to the conscience of your fans. If you're stuggling financially tell them about your difficulties (without being too whiny), explain to them how you can't keep making the music they love if you're broke, and ask them to donate. If this works for public broadcasting it can work for you. You could give away special "thank you gifts" (rare songs, backstage passes, merchandise, and other things CaptainMorgan mentioned) to those who donate.

[aqlo]

Normally I might mock tMod's post just because I am so directly attached to my own proposal. But in this case i just want to say as a collector that that kind of special crap he mentioned is gold to me and many others and can't be counterfeited satisfactorily, so it will work.

Keep eying which products you like that your songs might be good for though.

[CaptainMorgan]

tMoD, thank you for your kind words.
Originally posted by tMoD
CaptainMorgan, despite our disagreement in another thread, I want to commend you for your efforts here, and in the legal argument thread. Here is my offering to this thread: have a pledge drive, like public broadcasting. I can hear people groaning but hear me out:
If anyone doubts practacality of this wisdom here is a link (http://www.ricksteves.com/home.htm) for you. Rick Steves is a guy who sells travel books and produces a program on PBS called Rick Steves' travels in Europe. If you watch closely during pledge week, you will seeing him say, "Send in your money. Your donations help support programs like, Rick Steves, Travels in Europe"

He doesn't get alot of empathy from me. But, it seems to work on others.

NotBob, how about giving some ideas that don't benefit record execs. I think most of the ones I gave are in that catagory.

aqlo, you have reminded me of another one. Infocom who use to sell text adventure games. Used to give a ways trinkets in their game boxes. Usually they put some special piece of information on them, so the game could not be completed without it. It was an early, ineffective form of copy protection. People however started valuing these "trinkets" though. The also pioneered innovative box designs. I bought several game I had already completed using pirated versions, just to have an original copy.

[Kooperman]

Originally posted by CaptainMorgan
tMoD, thank you for your kind words.

If anyone doubts practacality of this wisdom here is a link (http://www.ricksteves.com/home.htm) for you. Rick Steves is a guy who sells travel books and produces a program on PBS called Rick Steves' travels in Europe. If you watch closely during pledge week, you will seeing him say, "Send in your money. Your donations help support programs like, Rick Steves, Travels in Europe"

He doesn't get alot of empathy from me. But, it seems to work on others.



I admire a guy who uses our money to go to Germany to drink beer and France to eat......

[tMoD]

Originally posted by notbob
there is no way to fund musicians without funding execs--you go to a live show, 9 times out of 10 it's linked to clear channel who in turn fund the riaa via the payola system. you buy an album, a chunk goes to execs. you use time warner cable or aol, a chunk goes to the riaa. you buy a sony dvd burner, money goes to the riaa

the only way to get rid of the execs is to not pay anyone until they are dead

If artists are putting out their own material then there are no executives involved. Admittedly, for an unknown band there would be the problem of promotion. Established artists can get out of their contracts; through bankruptcy, lawsuits, fulfilling their obligations, etc.; and they should be able to do fine provided they have a way to get paid.

[aqlo]

What about this idea from the news article about the government taking the money from the ISPs and giving it directly to the artist and not the record-industry or copyright-agent or whatever? Did I read that right?

Dijo, sin embargo, que los ingresos deberían destinarse "a los artistas, no a las compañías discográficas."
-- Jorge

[shawners]

also on another note, the band Trapped sold their cd on the internet with a booklet that had autographs.. 8.00 and theirs no printing, no distributing, PURE PROFIT!.

[Thalus999]

Originally posted by CaptainMorgan
I actually believe that there are many ways for musicians to earn a very nice living in the age of free file sharing. It is just that most of them have not been invented yet.

I am hoping this thread can be a place for constructively brainstorming these types of ideas.

Let me start with a few. Just to get people thinking.

Live Shows
1) Use mp3s to promote your live shows. Make every show interesting and different. Record each show make mp3s and give them away on the internet.

2) There is an industry of Grateful Dead fans that pay cover to go to every show and record the concerts because each show is different. Encourage this.

3) Sell backstage passes. Bands are cool. People love to party with the band. Make them buy your drinks.

Mp3s
1) Give your content free to internet radio stations. They will happy to not have to pay royalty fees. This is a significant advantage for unsigned bands like yours.

2) Mp3 files have ID3 tags that you can used to put interesting and valuable information, like your web site address.

3) Put your show schedule in the ID3 tags.

4) Add secret messages. Make subtle changes (versions) of your songs. Make them collectable. Release them at different times, like U.S. state quarters. Charge a small donation to download the rare versions from your web site.

5) Sell custom dedicated versions of songs.

Your Message
1) Sell your message. Are you a politically active band? Do you have a cause? Create a non-profit corporation to support this cause. Do good and pay yourself a salary. Promote your cause at your shoes.

2) Sell your ideas and attitude. Tell me that people thronged to see punk bands because of their artistry. Be different, sell different.

3) Sell other products that support your message. Sarcastic items are always a big seller. Offer special items only to people who attend your shows. I saw a band called "The Ringwalds" once and although I thought they were mediocre at best. There was a girl wearing a group t-shirt that said, "I can't believe I gave my panties to a geek." I would pay cover at another show just to buy that shirt, for my wife.

Web Site
1) Have an active community website. They are easy to create using free software and can be hosted for as little as $3 per month.

2) Sell things on your web site, besides CD's. CafePress with print T-shirts, mugs, lunch boxes, etc. on demand for you with zero set-up charge and no advanced overhead.

3) Have a members site. Ask for a small monthly fee. Be interesting and give people a look into your world. Musicians are cool.

4) Take part in associates programs. These programs pay you money if you refer customers to them and they buy things. It is free and can make you some extra cash.

5) Have your own associates program. Let other people promote your goods in exchange for a small commission.

Plastic Discs
If you are still intend on selling the actual round pieces plastic. There are many things you can do to make people want to buy them.

1) Full disclosure seems to be a popular idea on this site. Publish on the outside of the CD your rational for the price. For instance, "I worked on this for 6 months, I am printing 1000 copies. The cost is $x.xx. I have these expenses: graphic artist, $xxx.xx; recording engineer, $xxx.xx; manufacturing and printing, $xxx.xx; musician's salary, $xxx.xx; Stress the people this sale will benefit. Don't whine. Pick your price and explain it. People with respect it even if it is too high.

2) If your costs are high. Encourage people to pool their money, buy one CD and make copies for themselves.

3) Don't make them round. You can have CD's made in all sorts of clever shapes. Make them collectors items. Give them holograms.

4) Make them DVD audio disks, it is the next big thing.

5) Make them enhanced CDs. Give people some clever extra content.


I could probably go on longer, but now it is someone else's turn.

CaptainMorgan

Captain, clearly you are not a musician -- or at least do not try to survive on music. I have a house payment. 2 kids with dental and medical bills. Groceries to buy. a 10 year old car with car insurance bills. Home owner's insurance. Water bills. Electric bills. And a very tiny savings account that hasn't grown in years. I cannot make a living making political statements or getting Internet radio sations to pay me royalties. So let's talk about the real world. I write original music. I perform with my band. I try to sell CD's. But when I come out with a new CD, it is on Kaaza within 24 hours. I am told by many many fans that they have all my music on their MP3 players -- so they don't need a disk. Before P2P I would sell 30 or 40 disks at a small gig. Now I am lucky to sell 5 to 10. Sometimes none. My kids are going to college someday -- sooner than I like to think. How am I supposed to give them the education they deserve? Everytime someone downloads one of my songs, they hurt my kids. That is the real word Bub. That is why all the rationalization about how great P2P is for independent musicians is a crock of crap. I'm outa here.

[jonnymnemonic]

This thread is nice, and useful, for musicians. But should it not be expanded to include the other copyright-reliant folks, like writers? Many of the suggestions would work wonders for a musician (although not many would be that great for a studio musician), but few if any would help a writer very much, and their work is in some ways even easier to proliferate (it's smaller and easier to transfer, yet at the same time takes significantly longer to create).

Just because the RIAA are the ones currently firing off the lawsuits doesn't mean that writers and book publishers aren't being affected. Just not as much...yet. And it's doubtful, of course, that anyone could demonize the book publishers like the RIAA, because book publishers' clients (the authors) have always tended to be on the right side of the IQ bell curve and simply would never accept a writer-screwing contract.

In any case, don't forget about the writers. I like to read as much as I listen to music. In fact, I read quite a bit more than I listen to music, and I'm sure that while that's not "normal" it's probably not all that exceptional either.

[CaptainMorgan]

Originally posted by Thalus999
Captain, clearly you are not a musician -- or at least do not try to survive on music. I have a house payment. 2 kids with dental and medical bills. Groceries to buy. a 10 year old car with car insurance bills. Home owner's insurance. Water bills. Electric bills. And a very tiny savings account that hasn't grown in years.

I am not a Musician. (Deja Vu)

I do however have a brother in your situation. He is a professional musician. Has been since high school. I actually mean "professional" here not talented. Like you he also has never worked a day job, ever. He actually petitioned to graduate high school early, so that he could go on the road with a touring band. For four years he toured clubs that he was not even old enough to be in. He is one of the most talented musicians I have ever seen anywhere. Period. He has his own followers.

It is 14 years since he left to take his first professional road gig. He has still never had a "day job". He has a house, but no kids. He has very little money. He even has lots of boot leg computer software and other media as he is too poor to pay for the things he want to have in order to create his art.

In his case, he is poor for one reason and one reason alone. He pays zero effort to trying to make money using ways that actually WILL make money. He spends lots of time trying to make money in ways that he WANTS to make money. He thinks that he SHOULD be able to make money using the methods he wants to use. His methods are not unreasonably. In his utopia they WOULD work. However, no one else seems to care about this. They simply get no VALUE from what he is offering. It is not that they do not like his music or his effort. They just see no value in his PRODUCT.

Don't get me wrong, though there are 1000 reasons to envy my brother. He is a great human being, people love him including me. He gets to spend 100% of his time doing what he wants and loves. He does not love or want to do business. He does not want to spend energy analysing different possibilities obtaining value from his work. If he could make five times the money, by spending 20% of his time thinking about ways to make money, I think he would still pass. That is time waisted to him.

Thalus999, thank you for adding your view point to this thread. I think that many of the people on this site would like to help people like you.

On this thread, I am hoping people will suggest a way that provides value to both you and your perspective customers.

[Pebbles100]

Thalus999 -

I'm not a musician, so I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes. But I can say that I know how it feels to struggle. Everyone here gave alot of good ideas. I know it's easier said than done, but I guess you don't know until you try, right? I think alot of people here are completely discusted with the RIAA, but really want to support the musicians they like. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I would donate if there were ways to go around the RIAA.... :)

[eivioolla]

Originally posted by Thalus999
Captain, clearly you are not a musician -- or at least do not try to survive on music. I have a house payment. 2 kids with dental and medical bills. Groceries to buy. a 10 year old car with car insurance bills. Home owner's insurance. Water bills. Electric bills. And a very tiny savings account that hasn't grown in years. I cannot make a living making political statements or getting Internet radio sations to pay me royalties. So let's talk about the real world. I write original music. I perform with my band. I try to sell CD's. But when I come out with a new CD, it is on Kaaza within 24 hours. I am told by many many fans that they have all my music on their MP3 players -- so they don't need a disk. Before P2P I would sell 30 or 40 disks at a small gig. Now I am lucky to sell 5 to 10. Sometimes none. My kids are going to college someday -- sooner than I like to think. How am I supposed to give them the education they deserve? Everytime someone downloads one of my songs, they hurt my kids. That is the real word Bub. That is why all the rationalization about how great P2P is for independent musicians is a crock of crap. I'm outa here.

Jesus Christ, stop your whining. What - playing guitar doesn't pay your bills? Then get a *****n JOB like the rest of us. Do you see me whining that my "computer gaming career" doesn't pay off?

If you work for 8 hrs and sleep for another 8 hrs you still got 6-7 hrs to do whatever you please. If that's not making music then it's probably not worth making anyways.

Sorry for the rant.

[aqlo]

I'm not a real musician, just a drummer. But I can make money just by saying I'm having a fundraiser and i won't stop playing until I have enough to buy a bottle. Also people give me free fruit and vegetables to help me through the hard times.

[jonnymnemonic]

You play your computer game and equate that with a musician playing music, but it's not at all the same. FOr one thing, it takes zero talent to play a computer game and for another, you don't have an audience that likes watching you do it.

There is nothing wrong with entertainment as a profession. I mean, being paid to provide entertainment for others - what do you think computer game manufacturers do? Telling a musician to get a real job is exactly the same thing as telling the camera operators for movies to get a job, or stage performers to get a job, or writers to get a job, or computer game programmers to get a job. Yoohoo! These ARE jobs! If people aren't paid to do them, do you think that competent people who could easily make more money elsewhere will just use their 6 or 7 "free" hours a day to do these jobs out of the kindness of their hearts? You're living in a dreamworld if you believe that.

Entertainment as a profession is as old as prostitution. In fact, prostitution IS entertainment. Sure, you could jack it at home, but hey, a little poon is worth some bucks to some people.

If you really care about music, musicians, writers, movies, any form of entertainment, you won't go attacking those who are trying to make a living doing it. The only thing that could accomplish is one less person providing entertainment for the rest of us who are either too incompetent or too lazy to provide it for ourselves.

[Kooperman]

Originally posted by aqlo
I'm not a real musician, just a drummer. But I can make money just by saying I'm having a fundraiser and i won't stop playing until I have enough to buy a bottle. Also people give me free fruit and vegetables to help me through the hard times.
You have to have quick,soft hands to get whole tomatoes though.....

[eivioolla]

Originally posted by jonnymnemonic
You play your computer game and equate that with a musician playing music, but it's not at all the same. FOr one thing, it takes zero talent to play a computer game and for another, you don't have an audience that likes watching you do it.

Zero talent? Well I guess playing football or golf takes zero talent as well. And I wouldn't be so sure about the audience either. Someone I know returned recently from a massive LAN from Dallas if I recall correctly, the sponsors of their team paid the flights from EU to US and I think they won something like $20 000... Maybe it's not a profession yet but it might be getting there.


There is nothing wrong with entertainment as a profession. I mean, being paid to provide entertainment for others - what do you think computer game manufacturers do? Telling a musician to get a real job is exactly the same thing as telling the camera operators for movies to get a job, or stage performers to get a job, or writers to get a job, or computer game programmers to get a job. Yoohoo! These ARE jobs! If people aren't paid to do them, do you think that competent people who could easily make more money elsewhere will just use their 6 or 7 "free" hours a day to do these jobs out of the kindness of their hearts? You're living in a dreamworld if you believe that.


Afaik movie industry had their best year so far, if they can't pay for the cameramen then the problem is elsewhere than in filesharing.

The ones living in a dream world are those who think they have some god given right to make a living from whatever they "enjoy" doing. Yeah, some people get rich making music or doing sports, but they're just lucky, the rest of us work for a living.

What I'm saying is that if the business you're in doesn't pay off, you don't start bitching, whining, crying and suing people around, you just do something else instead.

[jonnymnemonic]

I'd say that depends on WHY the business you're in isn't paying off. Note that that musician said that it WAS paying off just fine, and now it's not, and suddenly people have come forward saying they have all his music on MP3 players, yet his CD sales have plummeted. I don't think that's a coincidence. Sherlock Holmes said something along the lines of, "the most likely answer is often the correct answer".

And you also seem to be saying that no one should EVER enjoy what they do for a living. If you enjoy it, you shouldn't be paid for it. That's what you said there. I say, wtf is with THAT idea? I *want* the freedom to get a job I enjoy. Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean it's suddenly not worth doing, does it?

I mean, how do you even test for that? Do interviewers sit you down when you come in and apply for a programming job and slap you with a polygraph? "Do you enjoy programming?" "Yes sir, I do." "I'm sorry then...NEXT!" Lol, right. I think you'll find that people who enjoy their jobs are also those who are actually best at DOING their jobs, and people who hate their jobs are not the most productive employees in the world.

[aqlo]

You play your computer game and equate that with a musician playing music Someone with a talent for video games has mad skills for particular positions the government badly needs to fill right now if we are going to keep on pelting the heretics with depleted-uranium from a distance the way we like to do. Sign up for a 2-year hitch and see how you like it man, and don't let the outmoded smoke-dope-for-a-living dinosaurs bring you down.

[eivioolla]

Originally posted by jonnymnemonic
I'd say that depends on WHY the business you're in isn't paying off. Note that that musician said that it WAS paying off just fine, and now it's not, and suddenly people have come forward saying they have all his music on MP3 players, yet his CD sales have plummeted. I don't think that's a coincidence. Sherlock Holmes said something along the lines of, "the most likely answer is often the correct answer".


Times change. What is profitable now, may not be that in 10 years. When that happens it's time to move on to something else.

And you also seem to be saying that no one should EVER enjoy what they do for a living. If you enjoy it, you shouldn't be paid for it. That's what you said there. I say, wtf is with THAT idea? I *want* the freedom to get a job I enjoy. Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean it's suddenly not worth doing, does it?


Nope, that is not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that you can't expect to get to do just that thing you love the most. If you do, that's all fine and dandy, but you just can't expect that, it's not realistic.

I tell you something else. I have about 100GB of rare, underground electronic music on my HD. If ONE of those artists paid their house with the profits they got from their music, I'll eat my hat.

Yet I have all that music, I keep getting more, I enjoy it and I'd go even so far saying that the musicians probably enjoy creating it too, even if it didn't buy them a Lamborghini.

[CaptainMorgan]

Cross posted, but I think it goes here as well.

Originally posted by MemeticMage
An artist chooses to be an artist because she or he loves his art form, not because of the money. A good artist can eek out a living doing his art. Even without copyright.

I agree with your sentament here. But I actually think that there are plenty of business models that artists could use so they don't have to "eek out" a living.

Thomas Kinkade (http://www.thomaskinkade.com/) is a good example. He actually looked at musicians and said, "Those lucky Bastards." What an EASY way to make money. How unfair that painters don't have such a cushy life.

But then he learned from them and changed. What he did different from other painters was he said, "I'm not going to sell my paintings. They are undervalued. I'm going to sell prints of my paintings. I can sell lots of them at lower price points and make more money then selling the original."

This was just like publishing books or music, except nobody was doing it. As a matter of fact there was no, framed art publishing industry at all. (Wow, who would sign him to a contract, produce his work and pay his royalties?). So he just built his own. And got rich. Very rich.

People are obviously pretty creative in finding ways to make money- it is almost an art in its self.

Oops, I quoted too soon...

Sorry for the rant, Capt Morgan, this is a great thread and I'm not tryin to derail it.

No, problem. You make interesting points.

[Kooperman]

Did we just get forked again....?

[CaptainMorgan]

Johnnymnemonic,

I agree with you completely. I thing we should expand this to helping all creative people who need a guide in this brave new world.

[IshareManyFilez]

Haha Thalus999 i really do understand where your coming from. NOT. I will respect what you are saying when you
A} Tell your band name
B} Have evidence to back it up,

You have ignored me, and other members pleads to share your bands name. So there for I have to call bullshit on you.

[drbenway]

Jesus Christ, stop your whining. What - playing guitar doesn't pay your bills? Then get a *****n JOB like the rest of us. Do you see me whining that my "computer gaming career" doesn't pay off?

If you work for 8 hrs and sleep for another 8 hrs you still got 6-7 hrs to do whatever you please. If that's not making music then it's probably not worth making anyways.

Sorry for the rant.

And what do you do for a "job" then? I doubt it's of much more importance to
the world than your "computer gaming career"...

How's about this:

Tomorrow when you turn up at your office your boss tells you that from now on instead of
working 8hrs you have to work 16hrs.. also, instead of being paid a regular wage you'll
only get paid out of whatever spare cash is left after the cleaners, the catering staff,
the guy who fixes the fax machine, the courier and the carpark attendant have all been paid.

And out of that money you'll have to buy everything you need to do your job: your computer,
your office chair, pens, paper even renting the office space itself.

...And what's more, you might not get paid anything at all because all those spreadsheets
you did last week have been leaked onto Limewire and your boss has already got them for
free so he doesn't have to give you anything for them.

The fact is, if people like you had to work half as hard as the average musician, you'd
die of exhaustion within a year.

[El Comandante]

dude... I can appreciate you're getting worked up over this issue but this is a 5 year old thread!

[RACKnRAIL]

And what do you do for a "job" then? I doubt it's of much more importance to
the world than your "computer gaming career"...

How's about this:

Tomorrow when you turn up at your office your boss tells you that from now on instead of
working 8hrs you have to work 16hrs.. also, instead of being paid a regular wage you'll
only get paid out of whatever spare cash is left after the cleaners, the catering staff,
the guy who fixes the fax machine, the courier and the carpark attendant have all been paid.

And out of that money you'll have to buy everything you need to do your job: your computer,
your office chair, pens, paper even renting the office space itself.

...And what's more, you might not get paid anything at all because all those spreadsheets
you did last week have been leaked onto Limewire and your boss has already got them for
free so he doesn't have to give you anything for them.

The fact is, if people like you had to work half as hard as the average musician, you'd
die of exhaustion within a year.

I don't suppose it occurred to you that the person you're quoting doesn't even browse ZP anymore. The fucking thread is almost 5 years old.

[mountain_rage]

This is an old thread but I want to comment anyway. The problem I have with musicians that complain about the industry is that they seem to be under this mentality that doing the same thing over and over again will garner new results. Its incredible how often you hear people complain that they can't make money of cd's anymore. The artist on this thread in particular complained about the cost to make his cd, but did he ever think of making it himself of asking the fans to help him make it? Also if you have a strong following there are so many other products you can sell. Clothing, posters, t-shirts, vinyls, bags, patches, etc... Its just like any other business if you can't cut it your cut out. Don't come crying because you suck at your business, learn it, grow it, make money.

[HelenaP]

This is an old thread but I want to comment anyway.

I am going to as well...

... Also if you have a strong following there are so many other products you can sell. Clothing, posters, t-shirts, vinyls, bags, patches, etc... Its just like any other business if you can't cut it your cut out. Don't come crying because you suck at your business, learn it, grow it, make money.

To amend what MR is just stated, I feel moved to add this and it's only my opinion, but would seem to be true (I cannot prove it);

Making music is not supposed to be a "job."

It's the true musician (artist), whose only way to convey the feelings that reside in his soul, whose only true motive for making music is to express himself, that does not feel it's a job.

The true musician would create music even if he didn't get paid for it.
That my friend, is a calling, not a job

If someone decides that making music is "Where it's at, man!" for the money, babes and the dreams of "being cool", well they are doomed from the beginning.

[jospams]

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[mountain_rage]

who will pay for recording? who will pay for all the expenses like video recording?

Not all artists are born rich. they need some money to get started. I think price of music could be taken down. Illigal file sharing could be a reason for music prices to be soo high.

On the flip side the artist also needs to feed his family etc... if the artist gets too rich then they could give out music for free, it won't matter anyways.

Helena's idea is very thoughtful and i respect that but wouldn't it be funny to see a famous artist work with me at a low paying job, just to feed him self and make more music?

It really doesn't take much to make a recording yourself, all you need is software and a computer with a midi input on the sound card. People seem to think that they need to go see a sound engineer for their recordings and thats just stupid. Sound engineers can fix yours flaws, but if you suck you shouldn't be in the industry anyway. If your good the amount of editing should be minimal and could be done with the open source software audacity. As for a sound proof room, you can sound proof any room on the cheap with anything from cardboard to old sheets. Its a sound room its doesn't have to be pretty it just has to work. Anyway I bet if someone was willing they could record their music for as little as 500$ and have a room setup for multiple recordings.

As for video recording, Why? Music is about music not about the video. You don't need a music video to be popular or to fine tune your art. But if you do want to make a music video there is a ton of options in terms of video cameras. Again you don't need expensive equipment all you need is an idea. Also as I mentioned before you can go to your fans for that content, make it a contest.

[HelenaP]

...wouldn't it be funny to see a famous artist work with me at a low paying job, just to feed him self and make more music?

I thought many already had.

[curlywagner]

It really doesn't take much to make a recording yourself, all you need is software and a computer with a midi input on the sound card. People seem to think that they need to go see a sound engineer for their recordings and thats just stupid. Sound engineers can fix yours flaws, but if you suck you shouldn't be in the industry anyway.

True enough, you can record your music for a lot less nowadays. However, if you want to record acoustic instruments (guitar, brass, strings, real drums) a single midi input won't get you very far. Add a few mics and a preamp in there and the cost rises pretty quickly.
Sound engineers do a lot more than 'fix flaws'. Sure, they edit, but they also mix and master the audio, which is pretty much essential if you're going to release something to the public. In my experience, musicians prefer to concentrate on creating, arranging and performing the music and they leave the mixing & mastering to a sound engineer.
I reckon it's always been tough for someone to make a living as a full-time musician, file sharing regardless.

[Mels_Smileys45]

Most people dont even begin to understand what all goes into producing good music. (yes, Ive been in a real recording studio and have also played in one and a freind of mine is a sound engineer) Sure, everyone can record their own but who the hell wants to hear it. Why arent average joes getting famous and rich every day from recording shite in their bathroom? Because most people have no talent. Almost nobody here really gives a shit about the artists in any aspect, they just want free stuff. I wish everyone would just admit that. If you think youre helping others by helping yourself then you need to explain how that works.

The flip side

Its funny. Now that people can grab all the music they want for free they no longer feel that the artists deserve to be paid. That for some reason, out of the goodness in their hearts I guess, they should entertain you for free. This is insulting. No one is going to travel around and entertain people and not hope or expect to get paid. Making good music is hard. Its not an easy task. Why shouldnt people get paid for their efforts? If people like their music and want to take it home with them then they should be willing to support the musicians. Its sad that these artists are now treated like trash because they can no longer keep their rights when they have to battle against the raging internet.

I do play music in my own home for free because I like to play and write. Am I good enough to make a job of it? No. I wish I was. People who are talented enough to write and play their own music deserve to get paid. In years gone by people were willing to pay, without bitching, for music but now that things have changed lots of peeps make all kinds of excuses why they no longer buy. I dont make a single excuse. I admit that I dont pay because now its free to rip off. I use to run to the music store every payday, very excited, to buy all kinds of CD's and was happy and proud of my collection. I worked hard just so I could get these things. Was this a bad thing? No. It gave me simple goals in my life and that gave me pleasure. Now music is boring and not exciting at all. For me the whole scene is ruined forever.

[jospams]

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[ThaOne]

If your music is really good then the people who feel it will buy it anyway. ....unless their mad skanks

[empcaligula]

Most people dont even begin to understand what all goes into producing good music. (yes, Ive been in a real recording studio and have also played in one and a freind of mine is a sound engineer) Sure, everyone can record their own but who the hell wants to hear it. Why arent average joes getting famous and rich every day from recording shite in their bathroom? Because most people have no talent. Almost nobody here really gives a shit about the artists in any aspect, they just want free stuff. I wish everyone would just admit that. If you think youre helping others by helping yourself then you need to explain how that works.

The flip side

Its funny. Now that people can grab all the music they want for free they no longer feel that the artists deserve to be paid. That for some reason, out of the goodness in their hearts I guess, they should entertain you for free. This is insulting. No one is going to travel around and entertain people and not hope or expect to get paid. Making good music is hard. Its not an easy task. Why shouldnt people get paid for their efforts? If people like their music and want to take it home with them then they should be willing to support the musicians. Its sad that these artists are now treated like trash because they can no longer keep their rights when they have to battle against the raging internet.

I do play music in my own home for free because I like to play and write. Am I good enough to make a job of it? No. I wish I was. People who are talented enough to write and play their own music deserve to get paid. In years gone by people were willing to pay, without bitching, for music but now that things have changed lots of peeps make all kinds of excuses why they no longer buy. I dont make a single excuse. I admit that I dont pay because now its free to rip off. I use to run to the music store every payday, very excited, to buy all kinds of CD's and was happy and proud of my collection. I worked hard just so I could get these things. Was this a bad thing? No. It gave me simple goals in my life and that gave me pleasure. Now music is boring and not exciting at all. For me the whole scene is ruined forever.

I don't know about you or other filesharers, but I still do spend money on CDs because I have the disposable income to do so and I am a music fanatic...I buy about 10-15 CDs/records a month. However, I also have about 1 TB of music on my computer and about half as much archived, some of which I would never admit to liking let alone purchasing. And, I don't think I am unique amongst most music fans; in fact, I'm active in a couple of trackers where the user base is driven to actually purchase their own material to upload. I would not have purchased many of the albums I own today nor would I have seen many of the bands I have if not for filesharing, which is likely true for a lot of music listeners.

Filesharing can be an extremely effective marketing tool, especially for unsigned artists. unsigned artists can get their music to the masses much easier than in the past, increasing the likelihood that they will be signed. For a good example, and in contrast to your first statement that no one would want to hear self-produced music, look to Basshunter who produced his own music using Fruity Loops. If you have the talent, it will be recognized and you will be rewarded. Through his own talent and his online activities, he was able to gain an international following that has been very rewarding for him. So, perhaps independant artists need to adapt to a changing industry and stop complaining that filesharing is killing the little guy. There was and still is a large amount of artists that are happy to even get an album out there for people to hear, they don't do it for the money, they do it for the art. For instance, amongst my favourite genres of extreme metal, very few signed artists can get by with their music and many of them have a day job. As a matter of fact, there is a relatively large contigent of black metal artists that only release their material in extremely limited quanities and rarely perform live, driving up the secondary market price of any available material sometimes to over $1000 for a LP. Another example, I grew up with a bunch of guys who did get signed with the one of the largest metal labels and they still keep day jobs, despite numerous international tours and 4 LPs released to critical acclaim...they continue to play and produce the music not for the money, but because they are living their dream.

And, to address your final point, I do not think that your attitude is shared by the majority. The CD and music in general has had to compete with a lot of other forms of entertainment that were not there 25 years ago. A wide selection of movies were not readily available for purchase, video games were not nearly as popular and computers were a geek thing. Over the years, music has had to compete more and more for our entertainment dollar. So, its no surprise that sales suffered. Add to this a major shift in consumer demands, as Thalus999 pointed out 5 years ago. With mp3 players widely available at low prices, the mp3 has become the preferred format for music listeners. And, I think that the success of the many mp3 retailers available on the net speaks for itself. People are still willing to pay for music.

[mungopw]

when the money is gone the real musicians will be left to play

[w31n3r]

I don't know about you or other filesharers, but yada yada yada.

i agree with most of what you say, i have almost 1TB music on my disks, but nowhere near that figure on my CD collection. but i'm not going to try to justify that discrepancy. talent should be rewarded, if you're good at your job, you'd expect to get promoted. sometimes sleeping with the boss will do, but mostly the former holds true.

i don't understand why file sharers get so defensive. what we do is wrong, we get away with it, happy days. why try to justify it? there has to be a middle ground. i download music because i can't afford all i listen to. i buy what i like, so the industry has to find ways to lower prices for me to buy more, or they clamp down on me, and i don't even listen to the rest of the shite they put out, thereby losing a potential sale. yeah they need to get their act together, but we can't go expecting musicians to be paupers either.


when the money is gone the real musicians will be left to play

yeah, on street corners with tin cups in front of them.

[HelenaP]

when the money is gone the real musicians will be left to play

Yes, they will.

...
yeah, on street corners with tin cups in front of them.

And this is a bad thing? I think not.

I would also say that they play on their front porch, living room, bedroom...
wherever they are moved to play.

@ Mels: I was not suggesting that they don't be paid. Far from it.