Making the switch to Unix/Linux

[fishyMishy]

After downloading a couple of dozen patches for Win XP this year alone, after having to fear the Next Big Virus every week,
I've had enough with Windows.

I'm now interested in switching over to Linux... or maybe Unix?
The problem is that there are so many alternatives. I mean -
what is the difference between Linux and Unix, really?

I've looked up the following distributions:
freeBSD
openBSD
netBSD
Redhat
Mandrake
SuSE
Debian

Suggestions are very welcomed!

[cpugeniusmv]

let me begin by saying, linux/unix have just as many (if not more) security holes as windows. they just aren't exploited nearly as much because the larger percentage of the user base is running on the windows operating system.

if you really want to try linux...i'd recommend going with mandrake 9.1, it's the only one i've tried, and i've seen no reason to try any others...yet, although when i get the time i would like to. if you search the forums for linux, i'm sure you will find some very informative posts. i know that there have been some threads about this recently.

[RACKnRAIL]

Red Hat is excellent, but some code writing skills are necessary. Here their link if you'd like to learn more. Red Hat 9 (http://www.redhat.com/software/linux/)

[fernandez]

Unix is proprietary software. Linux on the other hand is an emulation of Unix, i.e it works almost like Unix, but it is open source.
I'd suggest that you either try Mandrake, Red Hat or SuSE.

Edit: You have to download security patches for Linux too.

[isamoor]

Well, first I recommend clicking the banner in my signature. That is a helpful page.

Then for starters, I recommend downloading a knoppix iso and booting into that. You can just try linux off of the cd that way and get used to it.

And then I'm gonna have to recommend Mandrake 9.1 too. It's probably the best for a newbie.

I'm suprised you listed the *bsds. They are nice oses too, but not so easy to start with. FreeBSD is by far my favorite among them.

Hope that helps,

Isamoor

[zab]

Originally posted by cpugeniusmv
let me begin by saying, linux/unix have just as many (if not more) security holes as windows.

Wrong. OpenBSD has not had a single remote exploit in 5 years. Get your facts straight before posting.

[cpugeniusmv]

Originally posted by zab
Wrong. OpenBSD has not had a single remote exploit in 5 years. Get your facts straight before posting.

where are your facts from? give me sources.

if freebsd is so secure, why don't all the servers in the world run on it?

[zab]

Originally posted by fishyMishy

I've looked up the following distributions:
freeBSD
openBSD
netBSD

are different unices released under the BSD license:

* FreeBSD is extremely stable, a lot more stable than most of the linux distros (even though some customly tuned linux kernels can outperform it).

* NetBSD runs practically everywhere, but I'm not aware of any other distinctive features

* OpenBSD is the most secure os in the world, more secure even than linux kernel with the NSA patches. but is pretty slow and doesn't have many fancy features.


Redhat
Mandrake
SuSE
Debian

Suggestions are very welcomed!

Redhat is easy to install, sort of works for servers. Mandrake's even easier, perhaps better choice for desktops. SuSe is a little better than Redhat for servers and a little harder. Debian is considered the hardest and best for server use.

[zab]

Originally posted by cpugeniusmv
where are your facts from? give me sources.

if freebsd is so secure, why don't all the servers in the world run on it?

FreeBSD is the stable one, and many many servers (including hotmail.com) run on it.

OpenBSD is the secure one, but is a lot slower. Its mostly used on firewalls.

I get my facts from BUGTRAQ, reading their documentation, source, articles and most importantly - trying them all myself. The only one I haven't tried yet is NetBSD.

Also, I used to work as a security analyst some time ago.

[cpugeniusmv]

thanks for correcting me, but you could have been a little more polite with your first post... ;-)

[zab]

Originally posted by cpugeniusmv
thanks for correcting me, but you could have been a little more polite with your first post... ;-)

point taken. I'll be more polite to you in the future. (notice I said to you, not to everyone in general :D)

[Theinfamousone]

I'd imagine that if as many people were running OpenBSD as Windows (nearly everyone), they would find a few security holes.

Could be wrong though...

Not even I worry about viruses, I've gotten maybe 2 in my life that did basically nothing, and even if they did, I have everything backed up so it just gives me a good excuse to reformat. That being said, if you are so worried about viruses in Windows, you probably aren't technically advanced enough to run...say Red Hat.

Again...could be wrong though...

[dverma75]

Originally posted by fishyMishy
After downloading a couple of dozen patches for Win XP this year alone, after having to fear the Next Big Virus every week,
I've had enough with Windows.

I'm now interested in switching over to Linux... or maybe Unix?
The problem is that there are so many alternatives. I mean -
what is the difference between Linux and Unix, really?

I've looked up the following distributions:
freeBSD
openBSD
netBSD
Redhat
Mandrake
SuSE
Debian

Suggestions are very welcomed!

The Best Distro:

Go Here For Linux (http://www.mslinux.org)

[Theinfamousone]

Whoa, MSLinux? Have you tried it yet? Is it open source?

[cpugeniusmv]

Originally posted by Theinfamousone
Whoa, MSLinux? Have you tried it yet? Is it open source?

lmao...it's a hoax ;)

[zab]

Originally posted by Theinfamousone
I'd imagine that if as many people were running OpenBSD as Windows (nearly everyone), they would find a few security holes.


Its usually used in corporations and banks as a firewall host, and to do some limited serving. It has some use in the military as well.

That being said, if you are so worried about viruses in Windows, you probably aren't technically advanced enough to run...say Red Hat.


Hate to admit it but that's true. You better know your windows inside out before starting linux. That knowledge is not going to help you because everything in linux is different, but if you can't be bothered to learn the easy stuff, there's no point trying the hard.

If you're just starting to use linux, you need patience and desire to learn new things. Otherwise you're just wasting your time.

[shawners]

Windows is for the ones who like to do patches, and run virus, firewalls, Unix is made for getting around all those pesky Bill Gates ideas..
UNIX = Soon to be hacker ?
Windows = Soon to download another patch because of unix =)

[fishyMishy]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback :D

Right now, it stands between openBSD and mandrake.
I don't really mind taking on a hard to learn OS, after using
windows I've realized that the hard way, although longer, takes
you much further.

zab, I was mostly interested about the various *bsd alternatives
so thank you for the info on them.

I don't want to switch just because of security issues; it seems
to me that Windows is developing into a wrong direction.
Microsoft is adding more and more technology that limits
the user's freedom and choice.

BTW, I know you can run Windows based games/apps on linux,
but how good is this support? I still want to use the games and
some apps I have.

[zab]

Originally posted by fishyMishy

I don't really mind taking on a hard to learn OS, after using
windows I've realized that the hard way, although longer, takes
you much further.

that's right, but I forgot to mention that all BSDs are much harder than redhat, mandrake or SuSe. They're a little easier than debian, but still very hard, esp. if you haven't tried any linux before. The good news is that all BSDs come with much better documentation than linux, however it will still require many many hours of reading.

Also, you won't be able to run many p2p progs on *BSD. Just like linux has wine, the BSDs have wine and a linux emulation mode which is just as buggy :( If you get kaffe running on OpenBSD you may get Limewire and the other java-based progs to work. QTella and GTKTella may work too under linux emulation. XMule claims it works under FreeBSD, but I haven't tested it. Some proggies may work under wine, but wine is generally much better under linux than under the BSDs. MLDonkey will perhaps run on FreeBSD and under all others in Linux emulation mode.

If this is your first venture into non-MS world and your goal is to do filesharing, you should definitely go with Mandrake, Redhat or Knoppix. If its more of an academic interest or you want to learn some skills that will help you get a job in the IT field or you want to learn about computer science, definitely go with FreeBSD. You can try OpenBSD later, its really not for the faint-hearted.

[RJ5500]

Originally posted by zab
Wrong. OpenBSD has not had a single remote exploit in 5 years. Get your facts straight before posting.

Actually, that's not quite accurate. Check:

http://www.linuxsecurity.com/advisories/openbsd.html

There are plenty of holes that have surfaced in OpenBSD.

Actually, as shown in:

http://www.linuxsecurity.com/advisories/

There are holes in every major linux/BSD distro. No OS is 100% secure.

[Theinfamousone]

LOL, ah man, after reading that again, I feel like a fool. I didn't read all the comments and other news stories...

[indx]

I was reading this forum about a month ago with a similar thread saying something along the lines "Is it time for p2p users to switch to Linux?". After reading some of the comments made I made the decision to install Mandrake 9.1.

I downloaded the three ISO files and burnt them to CD's, made a new partition so I can still dual boot with Windows and then attempted to install Mandrake!

I admit I was real excited before I installed it (ummm yes that does sound sad doesn't it) but it's a brand new operating system! Who wouldn't be excited?!

Anyways, the Mandrake installation went real smooth and everything installed without errors. Before-hand in Windows I made sure I downloaded all the patches and drivers that were Linux compatible so I didn't think it would be too hard to get things up and running.

After the installation all I was doing was getting used to it and to get a feel of how Linux was, looking through different options and looking through lots of settings, you know, just to get a feel of the "Linux environment". For about 4 hours I got distracted because I became addicted to that Ktron game that is included.

After my Linux exploration I thought it was time to install my drivers and apps. I successfully installed: Sound card, graphics card. Unfortunately, that's about it. The modem was the most vital hardware I had to install and I couldn't do it. I did have the Linux drivers but it all got complicated when I had to compile the source code for so many things. After booting up in Windows and browsing some forums I came to the conclusion that hardly any newbies were successful in getting the drivers working with Linux. One even said he has been working solid 9 months trying to get the drivers to work but still had no luck. There were quite a few complications involved such as downgrading the Linux kernal, but I tried for hours and hours without any luck getting it to work.

Basically, that was that. Maybe it was just the luck of a "bad" modem that let me down but I also wouldn't of been able to use some of my other hardware such as webcam etc. so I thought I may as well just stick with Windows. I deleted the partition and now single boot Windows 2000 Professional.

Maybe I gave up too easy but I did try hard to get the drivers working. If all hardware was Linux compatible it would make things so much simpler, but as Windows continues to dominate the mainstream OS market, the problem will still remain.

Just thought I'd share my experiences with everyone.

[keyshawn]

indx,

don't give up !!!!!!!
Granted linux can be more difficult than windows, but I feel it's truly worth once you're accustomed to linux.
Your modem most likely is a winmodem if you're on 56k. That pretties much spells out trouble and hassle, since MS decided to partially integrate the modem with windows itself.
If need help, the best place probably would the webiste - : http://www.linmodems.org/

Often, it takes a long time to make the plunge [I've been in linux for 6 months now, and still feel like I have much more to learn before I go solely on linux.
[including a user-freindly native linux P2P, but that's another story]

Anyways, just remember that when you first started with windows, you weren't an expert and it took time to learn.
If you ever feel flustered and frustrated, just return to windows [using a dual-boot]
for that comp session and research\ask for help through here, linux forums and www.google.com/linux

-keyshawn-

[Lucian]

"let me begin by saying, linux/unix have just as many (if not more) security holes as windows. they just aren't exploited nearly as much because the larger percentage of the user base is running on the windows operating system."

Show me evidence.

I n my experience you are Wrong, half the servers are running Linux. Linux is standard for servers. When someone hacks a website thats well built, its usually running Apache on Linux.

There are more people trying to deface websites than writing viruses to destroy random computers, so just accept the fact that Windows is a buggy peice of crap, most of the exploits for WIndows exist because Microsoft put them in when they release some stupid service pack, or because Microsoft just hires cheap indian labor to write their code.

Linux does have exploits, but those exploits are often fixed in the same day. Also theres so many different versions of Linux that its impossible for a hacker to know which one you are running and hack you, finally Linux is very secure, its impossible to be infected with a virus, worm, or trojan.

So Linux has a few things going for it. Its virus proof, its trojan proof, its very difficult(not impossible) to hack.

Now, it does depend on which Linux you use, if you want the best security use Redhat, if you want the worst security use Mandrake or Lindows.


I myself use Redhat. I suggest you go with Redhat. The reason Linux cannot be infected by viruses easily is because its impossible for one program to take control of the whole operating system, in Windows because of how its designed, I can write a program which can take control of your entire operating system (a virus/trojan)

Also because how how Windows is designed, I can write a worm which will take control over your entire operating system and because all Windows users have the same software, basically Internet Explorer and other Microsoft crap, its easy to write a virus which then uses Microsofts own software to spread.


I suggest you use Linux, Redhat to be precise, and if you really want security, Use Mozilla, dont touch IE ever againn, use only products which are open source, compile the programs yourself, and run it.

#


# 5/9/2002 17:34 : OpenBSD: Local DoS and root exploit
- On current OpenBSD systems, any local user (being or not in the wheel group) can fill the kernel file descriptors table, leading to a denial of service.


Those are LOCAL exploits not remote. see the "local DOS and root Exploit" in plain english?

OpenBSD is secure as hell, its actually too secure to be useful and this is why people use Linux. Linux is secure as hell compared to Windows, there are very few remote exploits for Linux, yes theres exploits, but 90% of the time those exploits do not allow an attacker to hijack your entire machine, usually the most the exploit will do is make your machine crash.

So yes you can find exploits to take down Linux servers, you might even be able to find a way to deface a website running apache, but this wont give you root access, its very rare for remote root exploits to happen under Linux.

In Windows is common, any trojan or virus basically gets remote root access, thats the difference. Its hard as hell to get root acces in Linux and its easy as hell to get it in windows and this makes all the difference. Trojans cannot work without root access, viruses cannot do any damage without root access, and the most a person can do to you is maybe deface a website, and cause you to upgrade Apache.

If you arent running Apache, Telnet or any of the server programs its almost impossible to hack Linux, dont run anything which allows an outsider to access your computer as a server and theres no known way to hack Linux.

[Lucian]

IdnX I was the one who started the switch to Linux thread.

Linux Mandrake has weak driver support, it is not enterprise quality Linux, its for newbies such as yourself.

You might be better off trying Lindows or Redhat, but if you dont have a real modem "A Winmodem is a software modem" do you expect Linux to detect it? Your modem is a software modem, its going to be very difficult to get a software modem to work in Linux, I've done it before, but it was difficult even for me.

I suggest you buy a real modem, they only cost $10! Get a 56k modem for $10, then you'll be able to install Linux.

A $10 investment and you'll never have to worry about another virus, worm, hacker, etc.


I actually was glad MSblaster hit, maybe now people will take the Linux community seriously, and if not well maybe Microsoft will take software development seriously and fire all their Indian workers and hire Americans.



Hate to admit it but that's true. You better know your windows inside out before starting linux. That knowledge is not going to help you because everything in linux is different, but if you can't be bothered to learn the easy stuff, there's no point trying the hard.

Come on guys, Linux is not "Hard". Its different but its no harder than learning Windows was. Redhat 9.0 is actually well built and easy to use, its about as easy as Windows 98/2000.

Yes there are differences, but how many of you truely use WIndows? Do you guys actually peek into the registry and edit it? How many of you know dos? How many of you have recovered your system via Dos?

Most of you guys dont even fully know WIndows, and everyones using Windows just fine, I'd say someone could use Linux just fine and not know whats going on under the hood, as long as they dont go crazy and edit scripts or mess with the kernel they shouldnt have any problems.

Once again I HIGHlY suggest Redhat Linunx, its the most secure/stable version of Linux, its easy to use, and every piece of hardware and software seems to be compatible with it.

For games to run in Linux you might have to pay a bit of money, there is some software called Transgaming/WineX which I use to play my windows games in Linux. Most of the games work but not all of them.

http://www.transgaming.com/


I know you are going to complain about not wanting to pay, but if you want games in Linux, I think its worth the $10 a month fee that they require to port these games.

[indx]

Hello,

I will first like to say that I have an ADSL connection with F2S (http://www.f2s.com) (UK based) and my connection speed is 512Kbps downstream / 256Kbps upstream. The modem I use was the cheapest I can find, it is PCI Conexant based chipset which was £30 (approx $50). Not many people have been successful with this modem under Linux, but I prefer to have a PCI modem rather than an external router/NAT because I literally have NO space left around my computers environment.

It may not be relevant, but I am 16 and do not get hardly any money so I really don't fancy buying a new modem which will not necessarily guarantee me Linux compatibility. A friend recommended a USB ADSL modem which he got running with Linux but it is £90 (approx $140). I really don't want to spend money like that.

I have a cheap budget modem yes but it works perfect under Windows 2000 and to be honest, I had no intention of even thinking about moving to Linux when I first bought the modem a year ago.

I would really like to get this modem working with Linux but from looking at the modem's forums I see no hope in that happening. The main question here is:

Is it worth buying a new modem (for probably over £50) just so I can run it under Linux?

I really do not know. But I do know that if I decide to buy a new modem, I have to be guaranteed before-hand that it will be moderately easy to get working because I am definitely not planning on buying two or more new modems.

Another concern I have is my HDD. It is 80GB, which suited me fine when I first purchased it, but now I am getting cautious of space. I have split this partition into two, one is for my downloads and one for Windows and installed files. My 'downloads' partition is 35 GB and the Windows partition is 40 GB (I know it doesn't add up to 80 GB, but you know how it is, you lose space when you format for the first time) so basically, I have to split the 40 GB partition into two also, which only leaves me with about 20 GB each. I really don't feel happy just having 20 GB because I don't know how big or how many files I will be installing. Maybe I need to buy a new HDD as well.

Finally, my last question I need to address in this thread is about music creation programs. I produce hip hop beats and that's the only way I get my money these days, and the following programs are essential for me to use Linux in:

CoolEdit
Cubase
FruityLoops
Reason

These are my main production programs which I am familiar with and probably the most used programs overall. If any of you know if I can get these programs working in Linux I would be greatful, such as, if you know that they work with Wine or any other possible ways to get them working.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[DIMA2001]

first of all: linux is currently only a tick harder than windows - because of the deps prob.
But on Mandrake you can configure your rpm client (in software management) to resolve the deps itself and download needed packets from the internet.
Linux is much more secure than windows.
First: the privileges - a standard user cannot screw the system without root's rights. So, virii are not very dangerous (you could lose some data in your home dir - but that's all).
No software is perfect, everywhere are holes, but linux software has defenitely less holes than windows. Here i don't want to talk about Apache & mySQL *cough*, but for example about the browsers or email clients.
I don't know any eMail client for linux which has a "function" or a possibility to send an incoming mail automatically to other users or to start a binary by-itself.
Also, mozilla is really attack-proof (while IE has hundreds of holes).

And if there is a hole and it is found, it is patched by someone emmediately and not like on MS "wait until the hole is found - maybe it won't be found - and if, then patch in 3-5 days)

Because also no one works normally while being root, it is very unuseful to take remote control of a machine - you can't change anything on it ... alright except the data of the current user.

The autoupdate features in mdk, rh and suse are really good and useful.

If you just like watching videos (yes, and dvds - it is possible with a lib), listening to music, surfing, p2p-ing, working with office programmes or developing own software - linux/*nix is the perfect choise for you. If you like playing games ... urgh, you're currently wrong here - the game developers are either too conservative or too dumb to change from dx to ogl and to release also linux versions (althouhg there is some movement - q3-based games for example FAKK2, RtCW, UT win to lin patch, native ut2003 build etc.etc., but that's still not much ... unfortunately.

You can try linux and remove it again.
I would say that you will need 2-3 days to become familiar with common features (configuration, rpm, firewall, apps, common webpages).
BTW: if you lack on rpm, check www.pbone.net - you will find everything there.

My favorite distro is mdk (i bought it :] ) because of the great rpm support and easy-to-use interface (& configuration)

The ZP admins might wonder why i then report Mozilla 4.0 / Windows XP - that's because i send it from my friend's PC - im not in the town right now :]

[Lucian]

I will first like to say that I have an ADSL connection

You need PPPOE, and you can get the software from http://www.roaringpenguin.com/pppoe/