P2P users are US's biggest criminals

[dlowery06]

Isn't it funny how P2P users that share subpar music and movie files are seen by the RIAA and the US government as major criminals, worth giving so much time to stopping? Instead of using resources to go after drug dealers, the RIAA for ripping off the consumer, and other major crime lords, they go after the every day user that's just trying to enjoy a little bit of music without having to make the rich even richer.

P2P users are the worst criminals among everyone according the RIAA and the state legislators.

[Pebbles100]

Yeah, and the RIAA won't tell consumers that new music releases have dropped over 25% in the past year or so...nor do they mention the sluggish state of the economy - they are just so quick to point fingers at 60 million file "swappers". It's all about fine, sweet American GREED.

[If p2p networks were not around, I would never BUY 98% of the music I download - I would just rely on the radio like everyone else used to. How many people would really buy 100% of the music they download? come on!]

[Krell]

This has also been said about 1,000 times in the past 2 months, sorry but its really a stale and worn out subject matter.

[Sephiroth]

What are you talking about. The RIAA was busted for price fixing a few years ago. There has not been a law passed that has given the RIAA everything they have tried to get passed they are using the DMCA which was passed before file sharing got started.

The Record Companies are multinational companies too so there is no "american greed" just an industry who wants the power to force the consumer to their own will which they will never be able to fully succeed no matter how much they throw out inflated piracy losses figures and use file sharing as their scape goat for their other problems and as their justification in their war against the consumer.

[ATLien]

Originally posted by Krell
This has also been said about 1,000 times in the past 2 months, sorry but its really a stale and worn out subject matter.
This is why I've, "laid low" in this forum, because of repettish stuff like this, instead of subjects of P2P file sharing and other related subjects.

I miss the "good 'ol days"

[Theinfamousone]

Originally posted by Krell
This has also been said about 1,000 times in the past 2 months, sorry but its really a stale and worn out subject matter.

Is there a problem here Krell? *cracks knuckles*

[matt merch]

this thread qualifies for the
stating the bleeding obvious award
maybe you would also like to tell us gigli is a crap movie ?

[NDGAARONDI]

Originally posted by matt merch

maybe you would also like to tell us gigli is a crap movie ?

Guess that's why I haven't heard of it 'til now lol

[dlowery06]

Sorry for wasting your reading time, to the ones that feel this is repetitious. I didn't know there were certain things in here that we had to talk about.

Can you forgive me?

[Ken17625]

Sorry for wasting your reading time, to the ones that feel this is repetitious. I didn't know there were certain things in here that we had to talk about.

Can you forgive me?

As long as you promise to use the search function before posting a new thread.

Even though the search function sucks ass, even it gives you plentiful results on this subject.

Thats saying a lot.

[random]

the riaa just wants to blame their losses on p2p even though its their own fault, they just basically want a scapegoat

[NDGAARONDI]

Couldn't agree more

[Pebbles100]

Originally posted by Sephiroth
What are you talking about. The RIAA was busted for price fixing a few years ago. There has not been a law passed that has given the RIAA everything they have tried to get passed they are using the DMCA which was passed before file sharing got started.

The Record Companies are multinational companies too so there is no "american greed" just an industry who wants the power to force the consumer to their own will which they will never be able to fully succeed no matter how much they throw out inflated piracy losses figures and use file sharing as their scape goat for their other problems and as their justification in their war against the consumer.

American greed = suing innocent people for $700-$150,000 per song....

[NDGAARONDI]

ditto that

[MemeticMage]

Originally posted by Pebbles100
American greed = suing innocent people for $700-$150,000 per song....

I don't get the "American" characterization of greed here. Why is it "American" as opposed to Canadian or "international" or "materialistic" ??? American greed gave us the internet and the pc as tools usable by the masses. I am greedy. I like being greedy. Whats wrong with that? Doesn't mean I'm going to rip anyone off. Without a little greed we woulden't have p2p to talk about , computers to talk about it on or an internet to p2p over. Too much greed is bad though. Maybe you are smart and actually meant "superfluous greed" or something. Maybe not. Anti Americanism is passe and cliche. Those commited to being anti-establishment are better served by being against multinational corporations rather than specific political entities. If you HAVE to go after poltical entities in order to be right with yourself, at least go after the ones that really limit internet liberty like china and germany.

[NDGAARONDI]

Originally posted by MemeticMage
I don't get the "American" characterization of greed here. Why is it "American" as opposed to Canadian or "international" or "materialistic" ??? American greed gave us the internet and the pc as tools usable by the masses. I am greedy. I like being greedy. Whats wrong with that? Doesn't mean I'm going to rip anyone off. Without a little greed we woulden't have p2p to talk about , computers to talk about it on or an internet to p2p over. Too much greed is bad though. Maybe you are smart and actually meant "superfluous greed" or something. Maybe not. Anti Americanism is passe and cliche. Those commited to being anti-establishment are better served by being against multinational corporations rather than specific political entities. If you HAVE to go after poltical entities in order to be right with yourself, at least go after the ones that really limit internet liberty like china and germany.

I don't see how Germany fits in. America isn't that good on civil liberties so don't be such a newb. I see you have spelt America with a captial A and Germany with a small G. I guess you have something against Germany I bet, oh and China. So what was this about cliche?

[aqlo]

*squints*
What is Germany doing to internet liberties? (dammit I hate it when I miss stuff)

[NDGAARONDI]

I doubt if what he said was correct. I don't mean to be bias toward Europe as I am European but we take civil liberties and human rights etc quite seriously. I'd luahg if he said France though, because their human rights law must be obeyed, not discretionery etc. Dount if he'll reply about Germany anyway. China I can understand, but Germany?

[Pebbles100]

Indeed, corperations make up the backbone of our economy. But I don't know if you have checked the news lately, --- corperations such as Enron / Worldcom --- fixing the 'bottom line' so that the company officers can cash their stock options - worth millions, meanwhile they screw their employees out of their RETIREMENT funds - all wiped out within a day without ANY warning whatsoever. Now how would you feel if you where one of those employees left standing empty handed while the CEO gets to keep his $10 million dollar home in Boca Raton & cash his options? That's greed.

The RIAA & the companies that they represent [ie - the Big 5]pad the pockets of our politicians. Do you really believe that they are suing people soley because their profits are down? Come on! It's about control. That's what I mean by 'American' greed. It's not 'Anti-Americanism' - but the truth.

Have you no conscious whatsoever to think that greed is a good thing? You must sleep very well at night....

[NDGAARONDI]

lol :fire :fire

[tMoD]

Another one of these?

[Pebbles100]

lol :upside

[Ne007]

Originally posted by MemeticMage
If you HAVE to go after poltical entities in order to be right with yourself, at least go after the ones that really limit internet liberty like china and germany.

Let me get this straight....you ACTUALLY think that the government gives a shit about internet liberty?! LMFAO!

[MemeticMage]

Pebbles, I think you misunderstand me. The basic points I was making was that greed has its good and bad side and that huge corporations generaly represent the bad side of greed. The good side of greed is that out of greed people make better and cheaper products and are inspired to advance technology and make things people want to buy. Things like computer operating systems that most people can use and programs that allow you to surf the web. Things like cars and medicine and medical technology and houses etc etc etc. Greed is what fuels civilization. The bad side of greed is when people get too greedy and form monopolies and generaly rip people off. Corporations train people to get screwed and to like getting screwed. I'm just asking you to see that things have more than one side to them.

As far as American civil liberties are concerned, I don't think we are overall much worse or better than most other western countries. My comments about going after Germany and China were stupid, I'll admit. It just seems really trendy to target American government anymore and trendy to me always means less than original or at all well thought out. What your saying is right pebbles, but associating Americanism with greed is really going to win more enemies than friends (in the us anyways) and is hardly going to make regular people- the majority- think of any anti-riaa movement as anything but a bunch of reactionary extremists. It would be far more effective to spin the riaa as being unamerican themselves, against the constitutional liberties and freedoms of the little guy and for the anti-american anti-consumer corruption of the big guys, the wealthy and the crybaby celebrities. Basicaly: you want to be taken seriously? Don't use such blatent and cheesy mottos and cliches. We can be taken seriously or just looked at as a bunch of angsty fringe troublemakers who are simply looking for the next thing to protest or be against.

And wtf does "another one of these" mean?

well...sorry for all the typos and I would really like to be able to discuss this at legnth so I could be better understood but due to planned obsolesence, my regular pc is in the shop and the backup one I am on sucks so bad that it takes about a minute for me to even be able to see the words when I am done typing out a sentence.

[Raven]

Isn't it the canadian version of the RIAA that forced all of canada to pay a cd-r tax that goes directly into their pockets?

Besides, the RIAA is funded by several non-american entities. Ozzy Osbourne is a perfect exaple. He's an englishman on a Japanese record label that allows the bulk of his record sales to go to the RIAA and Sony.

Don't tell me that Ozzy doesn't have the stature and publicity to stray from the oligopalies and keep his profit for himself. What record store in an english speaking country would be crazy enough to NOT sell Ozzy Osbourne CD's???? He could easily neglect to resign the upcoming record contract and put the entire family (as well as a few friends) under a new RIAA-Free "Osbourne Records" record label. After all, Sharon knows how to do all the booking work and i'm sure that she could easily pass the skill on to Jack, seeing that he has no musical talent to support himself on.

Ozzy, what a lazy arse. People like him are our real problem, not stereotypes of americans.

[CaptainMorgan]

Can we do the French next? I love bashing the French.

[REDO]

Originally posted by CaptainMorgan
Can we do the French next? I love bashing the French.

yeah!!! me too. Those cheese-eating surrender monkeys... :fire

[Pebbles100]

[i]Originally posted by MemeticMag[/B]

In America, we SUE file-sharers. That was my entire point behind my origional post. No hidden meanings. You can twist and call my words 'Anti-Americanism' or whatever you wish, but can you explain why we are the only country that resorts to suing people for sharing files? If I were to 'shoplift' a cd from a store, I would recieve less of a punishment than I would if I was trading tunes. Why isn't there any less of punishment for those caught sharing music? How about probation? [that's the usual punishment for shoplifting] No -- it all falls back on money. You can't even write it off in bankruptcy court. These judgements could financially ruin someone's life. Origionally, that was my ONLY point behind my statement 'American greed'. I clearly stated that in the beginning.

[NDGAARONDI]

Agreed. :fire

[jonnymnemonic]

Only the U.S. cares enough about creators to protect their work from piracy, and the rest of the world doesn't care about the rights of creators. That will likely be good for the U.S. in the end, since creators will go where their rights are protected, their work respected, and their time and effort valued.

How you view it is really just a matter of perspective. But put yourself in place of some writer who spends three years writing a book and would like to make $150k off the book (or $50k/year, a middle-class wage). If you are that writer, would you want people to strip you of the freedom to price your work as YOU see fit by pricing it at $0 FOR you? Or would you rather someone is out there trying to make sure you get paid so that you can make those mortgage payments and avoid living in a cardboard box? If I was that writer, well, that choice would obviously be pretty simple: Protect me! Please!

Now, you can say that writer is a greedy sumbeotch for wanting to get paid for his work. I mean, how dare he ask such a thing! Or you can look at it as the people who want to reap the rewards of his work while paying nothing are greedy. Both are probably correct to some degree. But if you don't get his book for free, what's the worst that happens? You don't read the book, or you do read it but pay for it. Not a major hardship either way. On the other hand, if the writer doesn't get paid for those three years? He could be living on the streets, his children might go hungry, his wife might have to forego her cancer treatments, all kinds of truly horrible things could result.

Everything is not black-and-white. Life is all shades of grey. And there are always two points of view (and usually far more) for every topic.

[NDGAARONDI]

Originally posted by jonnymnemonic
Only the U.S. cares enough about creators to protect their work from piracy, and the rest of the world doesn't care about the rights of creators. That will likely be good for the U.S. in the end, since creators will go where their rights are protected, their work respected, and their time and effort valued.



Huh?

[Pebbles100]

Copyrights are needed, indeed. Other countries do have copyright laws - not just the US. But as for the punishement of file sharing - it dosen't fit the crime.

[NDGAARONDI]

That's what I thought. Nearly every country has copyright laws and signed to worldwide treaties so the fact that only work in the US is protected is just bull.

[MemeticMage]

Here I am back with my crappy computer. Who the hell are "we", when you say we are the country that resorts to suing people for file sharing? Do you mean you and I??? I'm not suing anyone, are you? Who do you think owns most of the companies that make up the riaa? Is it only American corporations with flags on the walls and congressmen as shareholders?? Do they only sell music in America and do they promote soley American "artists"? No, no, and no.

CORPORATIONS ARE NOT POLITICAL ENTITIES. Don't include me and the rest of the country in your "we". I'm not twisting anything. I am replying directly to your statements. Americans are people who happen to live in America. My guess is most of them don't sue anyone. So who is this we? If you have a problem with our civil liability system, civil litigiation attorneys or trial-lawyers (I do, I hate them) your beef needs to be with them. The civil litigation system, corporations, and lawyers do not make up America, rather it is the people who are routinely screwed by these entities that make up America.

Thats why I am saying you are using a cheesy motto that normaly only misinformed, confused, easily lead people use. Such simple-minded, retarded anti-Americanism usually only serves to debase the same people that are screwed by the things which most people with that retarded veiw think they are against. I'm offended because I am one the people getting screwed and so are you but yet somehow you think both of us share in the guilt because we are Americans. You said it yourself when you said, "we". Its an idea that is infectuous and which alot of people believe but really only serves to divide people and make them easier to control as consumers and voters. Dont' be so fucking easily lead!

[Jello]

No one is innocent when it comes to copyright violation.

P2P users are just the easiest to find and prosecute.

That's why they are even bothering.

[MemeticMage]

Originally posted by jonnymnemonic
Only the U.S. cares enough about creators to protect their work from piracy, and the rest of the world doesn't care about the rights of creators. That will likely be good for the U.S. in the end, since creators will go where their rights are protected, their work respected, and their time and effort valued.

How you view it is really just a matter of perspective. But put yourself in place of some writer who spends three years writing a book and would like to make $150k off the book (or $50k/year, a middle-class wage). If you are that writer, would you want people to strip you of the freedom to price your work as YOU see fit by pricing it at $0 FOR you? Or would you rather someone is out there trying to make sure you get paid so that you can make those mortgage payments and avoid living in a cardboard box? If I was that writer, well, that choice would obviously be pretty simple: Protect me! Please!

Now, you can say that writer is a greedy sumbeotch for wanting to get paid for his work. I mean, how dare he ask such a thing! Or you can look at it as the people who want to reap the rewards of his work while paying nothing are greedy. Both are probably correct to some degree. But if you don't get his book for free, what's the worst that happens? You don't read the book, or you do read it but pay for it. Not a major hardship either way. On the other hand, if the writer doesn't get paid for those three years? He could be living on the streets, his children might go hungry, his wife might have to forego her cancer treatments, all kinds of truly horrible things could result.

Everything is not black-and-white. Life is all shades of grey. And there are always two points of view (and usually far more) for every topic.
I have to take some issue with this because I am an argumentative prick. I'm not sure what you are talking about. Most of the best artists I've ever heard, read, seen etc. aren't published by any of the big publishers. Big publishers are concerned with cash, and as concerns the recording industry that means the creative process is largely controled by the marketing department. Do you think the most popular groups today actually write their own music? If they do they usually only have a hand in it. The music, the image, the sound, everything is controled by the Company so as to produce maximum profits. That is a far cry from true artistry or "creation".

About your writer metaphor- This is a bad metaphor for "piracy" because if "book-sharing" is piracy than anyone who ever leant another person a book to read is a criminal and your hometwon head librarian one of the most devious and dangerous criminal minds of our time. About your idea its self- the work that generates only 150k a year for its creator doesn't have enough mass appeal to cause sharing on a large enough scale to lessen the money generated. On the other hand, if the artist is LUCKY enough that his work is just so damn good that it does end up stimulating mass-appeal and mass-sharing, the very act of such mass sharing will propagate the artists reputation, make him famous to the point where his next work will sell-out and he will make a hell of alot more than that 150k. If I am an artist and a publisher puts out a 100k run of a work I did, and everyone who buys one of those 100k reproductions, shares it with ten other peope and they in turn share it with ten other people and they all like it then I am euphoric because now there are 10 million people who like my work and at least several million who I know will buy my next work.

File-sharing, and sharing of works can only HELP the up and coming artist. By the time an artist is so popular that people actually share his work en masse, that work is generating so much cash that almost no amount of sharing is going to actually hurt him. Unless he is a greedy pig and thinks that making 100 million instead of 105 million is substancially hurting him. But at that point he is no longer really an artist anyways because his goal is no longer to express himself through his art to as many people as possible but rather to make cash. He is no more an artist than some crusty whore is a beautifull woman. The whore might look good and get you off quick but shes hardly a lady and I would never say that her appeal is anything like beauty.


I do agree there are many sides to everything, I just think its important to point out that the "little guy" doesn't get screwed by file-sharing, and if anything it actually helps him.

[Pebbles100]

Originally posted by MemeticMage
I'm offended because I am one the people getting screwed and so are you but yet somehow you think both of us share in the guilt because we are Americans. You said it yourself when you said, "we". Its an idea that is infectuous and which alot of people believe but really only serves to divide people and make them easier to control as consumers and voters. Dont' be so fucking easily lead!

**[sigh]**

It's obvious you have a chip on your shoulder towards this subject. Your keep taking this out of context - [or you like toying with me]. Don't you get it? This has nothing to do with 'Anti-Americanism'.

Should I not be upset that the RIAA is $SUING$ people? It's WRONG the way they are handling this matter. Wait - maybe I should really believe that it's fine the way they plan to steam-roll over people. It's all about money - they are 'entitled' to compensation by law. But laws can be changed. Don't you think 750-150,000 per song is a bit excessive? To me, it seems a bit $greedy$. They are using unfair, 'strong-armed tactics' to enforce control [Wait - was that a cliche? lol]. Maybe if I would just roll over with the rest of the 60 million file-sharers, and REALLY start believing that file-sharers deserve to $pay$ through their noses, then the Recording Industry Association of America would win. Then again, if America's ancestors would have just 'rolled over' in front of England, we might not be here today.

Ps - you really don't have to talk to me with such nasty language. I gave you the same respect, now I think I deserve a bit.

[NDGAARONDI]

Originally posted by Pebbles100
**[sigh]**

Then again, if America's ancestors would have just 'rolled over' in front of England, we might not be here today.

Ps - you really don't have to talk to me with such nasty language. I gave you the same respect, now I think I deserve a bit.

I liked that bit about the ancestory lol. I can see this being closed, pity really.

[Pebbles100]

Really? Thanks :)

Yeah - I really don't appreciate people cursing at me.... :(

[NDGAARONDI]

Yeah you get people like this, I had someone like this with me, thing is, he got banned soon after lol

[Pebbles100]

Seems to be alot of useless bickering going around lately....I can't tell if he really did take my statement offensive or he's just trying to argue. I never meant it the way he's making it seem. It's horrible to have someone come down on you so hard. :(

[NDGAARONDI]

It is.

[MemeticMage]

Pebbles,
You still are totaly failing to justify your characterization. You are saying, and saying well, that the riaa is wrong but your aren't backing up the characterization one bit. If it had nothing to do with ani-Americanism or any kind of "Americanism" at all, you would not have made the characteriation. I am not arguing the content of what you said, but the characterization you made when you said it. Check out my other posts, you have to see that I agree with you. All I am saying is that the way you characterize things is going to have a huge effect on the way people take what you are saying. Its the difference between being understood or being written off.

I apologize for being mean to you, Pebbles. In part I was toying with you. I think I was just frustrated because we probably agree on the basic issues but you felt compelled to characterize the greed of the riaa as "American" and refused to admit just how counterproductive that motto is. Its a label, and labels suck. They suck especially when you are applying them to the same people that need to be on your side in order for you to win. What angers me the most about it is that really such labels are used to divide people against each other and control who we vote for. As a label it tends to marginalize the ideas of the people who use it.

I was also fishing for some subtanciation of the label and considering that you gave none I can only conclude that you are simply repeating a label you heard others say and that feels cool and fitting for you to use. I was looking for a debate but now I feel bad because you returned my slap with a frown instead of a punch.

I was being a jerk, and I do apologize, but at least we agree. The vast majority of people who don't agree with you will, upon hearing "American greed" either totaly ignore you, or shout you down and look at anything else you have to say in the light of how they feel about that one single statement. You have good ideas and I want you to be taken seriously. I want people to hear what you are saying and really think about it.

But I'll take my own medicine and acknowledge that by being so harsh I've hardly won any thought from you. Just as you probably read what I said and thought, "Whats wrong with this blowhard?", others will hear "American greed" and afterwards only hear, "Oh, just another extremist with veiws that are not worth my consideration".

Peace.

[Pebbles100]

I just get really worked up over issues dealing with the RIAA – I can’t stand the way that they are handling this. I never meant to offend you, or anyone else when I made the statement of ‘American greed’. I was just trying to associate the RIAA with greed / control – maybe it didn’t come out exactly right, but whatever.
Also - I don't punch back when someone hit's below the belt

[Rickio]

well i guess it happens once in awhile huh? lol
cooling out before I have to step in that is hehe...

thanks for smoothing it out between yourself pebbles and MemeticMage.

yeah discussing certain issues can get heated. lol

peace

[mojo-ris-in]

Originally posted by Rickio
well i guess it happens once in awhile huh? lol
cooling out before I have to step in that is hehe...

thanks for smoothing it out between yourself pebbles and MemeticMage.

yeah discussing certain issues can get heated. lol

peace

Nice. Ya see Rickio people do listen to your words sometimes....LOL

Anyways good job you 2. You can have differences, even major ones, and still show the respect that everybody deserves. Now if the rest of us can learn from this wisdom [myself included ;-) ]

[MemeticMage]

Pebbles, its cool. Don't worry about offending me, I don't take it personaly. I generaly don't get angry with people but rather with ideas, though I guess it comes out as being twords the person. You deserve alot of credit for not letting yourself get baited.

oooh, I just ran adaware on my crappy computer and suddenly it runs like ten times faster woohooo

[Pebbles100]

:) I have adaware - love it. First use, it deleated over 150 files.

[MemeticMage]

yup...I got 77 right away. Gotta love the free, low-production-value, and aggressively commercialistic nature of the web. I'll be glad to run ad-aware on my pc every day of the week if it means we get to keep file-sharing. They put and end to the freebees though- they better also get rid of the scum, the spam, the malware and adware and spyware etc etc etc. A clean, nice, internet with no adware (or any other -ware crap), little spam, and no freebies. That would suck. Lets keep this the wild west.

[NDGAARONDI]

I thought malware was the term used to collect scumware, adware, spyware etc all together.....?

[aqlo]

Used properly "malware" indicates actual harm, like viruses and agressive spyware and so on, as opposed to mere adware.

[NDGAARONDI]

Thank you for that.

[stevenkao]

Originally posted by Pebbles100
American greed = suing innocent people for $700-$150,000 per song....

well..im not so sure that it applies ONLY to americans, SONY a major proponet of RIAA is actually owned by japanese.

[Pebbles100]

True...the companies that the RIAA represent have branches in many countries throught the world, difference being that their laws are different. In some countries, copyright violators face jailtime. Ours, it's both - criminal and civil, that is.

The US needs to tighten the laws regarding how they conduct these lawsuits. What gave the RIAA the ease to file thousands of lawsuits was when they no longer needed a judges signature to approve subpoenas. In my opinion, this gave them even more momentum to go after many, [thousands], of file sharers.