How would you tap an internet phone call? [Archive]

FreakinWeasel

July 30th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Since Carnivore came out I doubt there has been any "real" privacy anyway. FW

What is Carnivore?
Carnivore helps the FBI conduct wiretaps on Internet connections.

The Red Pill: Carnivore is an FBI assistance program that helps ISP overcome technical difficulties when complying with court orders. The FBI is not allowed to put Carnivore on the network unless the ISP claims it cannot (or will not) comply with the court order. The Internet is not run by the government, so can only place Carnivore boxes on the Internet without permission from an ISP (which rarely gives permission without a court order).

The Blue Pill: Carnivore is a sophisticated new wiretapping/eavesdropping program that scans people's e-mail. There is a widespread

The FBI's story: "Carnivore is a computer-based system that is designed to allow the FBI, in cooperation with an Internet Service Provider (ISP), to comply with court orders requiring the collection of certain information about emails or other electronic communications to or from a specific user targeted in an investigation."

The FBI explains the origin of the codename: "Carnivore chews all the data on the network, but it only actually eats the information authorized by a court order."

Source of of above info:
http://www.robertgraham.com/pubs/carnivore-faq.html

Kyle06

July 30th, 2003, 01:06 PM

Go to radioshack they have everything

lol
I don't know for sure call the FBI and ask..

mojo-ris-in

July 30th, 2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by JennEmile
Now...how wrong would that be. There would most definitely be a rights fight in congress over that. If it were to happen, it would put a clear and complete signal to all internet users that there is absolutely no privacy over the internet. That would prompt me to start making donations to EFF. We all should. But the question still remains with myself...how could a person tap and how could you detect it? :mellow

Privacy on the internet? LOL If there ever was privacy on the internet there isn't now. You can be tracked, monitored, and watched fairly easy. Same thing with Cell and Wired phones and the kicker is it's all legal for our government to do that and probably won't change anytime soon. And I guarantee you it's going on now as we speak.

begoodbebad

July 30th, 2003, 04:59 PM

In UK every electronic communication is monitored by a series of US listening stations, the most famous being at Morwenstowe in Cornwall and Menwith Hill in Yorkshire.

here's a link about Menwith Hill (http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/mhs/)

Of course the fact that every item of communication is monitored doesn't mean it's noted by a human but certainly it will all be scanned for keys and triggers in terms of words, combinations of words, numbers , origins, destinations etc.

You had better believe that similar activity is ongoing in USA also.

Malakai1911

July 30th, 2003, 10:23 PM

Traffic analysis would uncover your voip call.

I suggest you find an encrypted way to chat. Say, PGPfone (available from www.pgpi.org).

Using your PGP key to encrypt voice is probably about the safest I can think of.

PowerMan57two

July 30th, 2003, 10:28 PM

Yeah privacy on the internet isn't much these days. I mean look at all the sites we own here on ZP we can find out information the the site user just like that. There are ways to prevent it but just gotta know how with a little money. I have all my sites blocked so people cannot get my info. But monitoring calls online is (what's the word) strange?

neoufo51

July 30th, 2003, 10:43 PM

I dunno what is people's problem with taps like Carnivore. Everybody acts like their personal life is something so juicy and gossipy that if anybody finds out, it will be the end of them. The government is not going to "out" your private life. They're aren't out there to use this info against you unless you are a criminal, terrorist, cult member, etc. Its mean't for security, people.

Extreme Hypothetical: Let's say you're telling your girlfriend sorry for prematurely ejaculating in her the other night. Big deal, the government has a number on that certain communication, but they aren't gonna care because you are NOT SMUGGING NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE US OR SOMETHING AND IT WON'T BE CONSIDERED "VIABLE" INFORMATION. As long as things are done to keep the bad guys, domestic or foreign, from hurting innocents, I say let them happen.

If the government begins using this kinda info against individuals, fine, tear the system down and reform.

isus

July 30th, 2003, 10:45 PM

http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-5056424.html?tag=fd_lede1_hed

mojo-ris-in

July 30th, 2003, 11:15 PM

FreakinWeasel

July 30th, 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by neoufo51
I dunno what is people's problem with taps like Carnivore. Everybody acts like their personal life is something so juicy and gossipy that if anybody finds out, it will be the end of them. The government is not going to "out" your private life. They're aren't out there to use this info against you unless you are a criminal, terrorist, cult member, etc. Its mean't for security, people.

Extreme Hypothetical: Let's say you're telling your girlfriend sorry for prematurely ejaculating in her the other night. Big deal, the government has a number on that certain communication, but they aren't gonna care because you are NOT SMUGGING NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE US OR SOMETHING AND IT WON'T BE CONSIDERED "VIABLE" INFORMATION. As long as things are done to keep the bad guys, domestic or foreign, from hurting innocents, I say let them happen.

If the government begins using this kinda info against individuals, fine, tear the system down and reform.

You obviuosly have no idea what the Constituion of the United States is do you. This is like being able to spy on you all the time. Just the mere mention of nuclear weapons would mean that now ZP is now on their watch list thanks to those keywords.

OK so I don't care how you splooged the old lady the other night, but I do care that I do all my banking online, talk to my brother online (not really juicy stuff but he has some real views on our govm'nt and gun control). In the future we will all vote online. And I think the bigger issue IS how it could be abused in the future. Did you know that if you even talk about killing the Pres. your ass can be sent off to the can with no trial. How would you like to be hangin with your homey's online and make some comment about how you hate the pres and wish he was dead, knock, knock, knock, Secret Service sir. Anyway, it sucks what they are doing to our privacy in general. But I guess it's a new world with the terrorists and if this helps, I'll keep my "rotten ass president" remarks in the USPS mailbox!

IsHaRe2000FilezSueMe

August 1st, 2003, 09:18 AM

I completely agree. Neoufo51 you are completely filled with arrogance, and ignorance. As FreakinWeasel said this country was based on the fact that everyone has certain rights. Freedom of speech, assembly, etc. Once they start listening to your convos, there goes your freedom of speech.

Vlet

August 1st, 2003, 09:46 AM

One way to avoid being 'tapped' is to use an encrypted transfer method; Haxial Netphone.

http://www.haxial.com/products/netfone/

"Haxial NetFone is an encrypted multi-user Internet telephone. ie it lets you talk (literally, without typing), to 1 or more people over the Internet. You can talk to multiple people at the same time, and your security and privacy is protected by encryption. Not surprisingly, if you want to talk, you will need a working microphone for your computer. If you do not have a microphone, you can still listen, but of course you cannot talk." - from haxial.com

Vlet

August 1st, 2003, 09:52 AM

Actually, this has given me an idea ~ instead of a private key encryption method like Haxial Netphone, one could craft a public key system which some (many) will agree is more secure than a private key system (because in order for two or more people to be trusted, you must have exchanged keys - see below).

In theory, if such a product existed, you and your friend could send eachother your public keys via email etc, but if big brother were watching everything you did, this would negate your privacy tactics. The best thing to do with such a (theoretical) system would be for you and your friend to make eachother CD's with your public keys on them, and send them through snail-mail, that way you could be 100% sure no one has access to them. You could bet your life on that security.

Krell

August 1st, 2003, 11:28 AM

Were you under the impression that your calls were NOT recorded?

Silly wabbit.

Setting up encryption screams "pay attention to me !"

99.9999999% of you dont have anything to say thats worth paying attention to anyways. Whats all the fuss about?

All telephone calls are network traffic, there's no "Rosy the operator" swtching calls. All calls are logged, and they can be listened to in real time or unarchived.

It's not that the question doesnt have relavence, it just 20 years behind the times.

.

Vlet

August 1st, 2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Krell

Setting up encryption screams "pay attention to me !"

99.9999999% of you dont have anything to say thats worth paying attention to anyways. Whats all the fuss about?

So why bother use a firewall? Why bother maintain any level of security at all then?

The fact is that personal privacy is dying, and protecting yourself from invasion of it should not be viewed as a scream for attention, but a firm statement that you aren't going to let authorities monitor your every move.

neoufo51

August 1st, 2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by FreakinWeasel
You obviuosly have no idea what the Constituion of the United States is do you. This is like being able to spy on you all the time. Just the mere mention of nuclear weapons would mean that now ZP is now on their watch list thanks to those keywords.

First of all, yes, I do talk about how much better off this country would be if Bush was assassinated, or choked on that pretzel, or if Ashcroft fell down a flight of stairs. It would be good news to me, and I'm not hearing any knocking on my door, nor will I in the future.

Uhhh, Poly Sci major here, yes, I do. YOU don't, we have freedoms, but they can be changed, the interpretation of Amendment 1 is well, subject to question everyday now. It's our job as a democracy to apply what is best for us.

Ok, listen, there isn't gonna be tapping of that magnitude anytime soon. You say im ignorant, huh? This coming from some REALLY freakin paranoid people. If you have such a problem with it, why not try to lobby and fight against such laws rather than try to hide behind a corporate software that makes money off frightened sheep like you. You're just buying into the fear of "evil men" that allows such extreme measures to take place. I'm not afraid of "large scale attacks" and "red level alerts" but if they ever do happen, this country, and you will suffer. You can't take the position that the government can't keep an eye on what is going on, thats just stupid, you need SOME kind of security, the world isn't perfect. You have to take a moderate stance.

I don't trust the government either, but listen, we have to take security measures as well. Now I know you envision an Orwellian future, blah blah. But come on, do you really that that will happen with such warnings this generation has received? As long as we stem the taps now to mere email and radio communications, phone, etc, I'm fine with it as long as nobody is in my house tapping me on a camera. You act as if you're entire life will be taped and if you say "Bush is an asshole." (Which he is, kinda, an asshole puppet, rather) NO, buddy, you're not gonna get watched like that, the people behind such systems are computer savvy young guys just like us, fresh out of college, working on a CIA mainframe. Go to the FBI or Langley someday, you'll see that the guys who work these systems, most of them, look just like the guys that post on this forum. You're making too much out of this, our democracy won't let it happen unless we let it. Get idiots like Bush and Ashcroft out and you'll have a nice, moderate, security system that will protect the country (what else will???) and keep away from your bedroom walls.

FileHoover

August 1st, 2003, 07:02 PM

One BIG reason government is not trusted, is, it tries to enforce moral judgements on personal behavior, on things we do that are our OWN business.

1) Whom we are fucking.
2) What drugs we choose or not choose to put into our bodies.
3) What pictures we choose to look at.
4) What movies we choose to watch.

If government would stay out of people's personal lives, it would be a lot more trusted. Whatever two or more consenting adults do with or to each other is none of the government's business.

If the government would stay out of people's person lives, it would get a lot more support from its citizens. I literally seethe when I think about how many people are in jail over consensual sexual behavior like prositituion, drug use and looking at adult porn. I have to stop thinking about it because it makes me sick.

If a person takes drugs to get off, maybe their life sucks. The government cannot fix that. Let the person zone out as long as they don't drive. Anything that is fun, the MAN crushes out. If it doesn't fit the 9 to 5 world of economic slavery that most of us live in, the MAN tries to crush it out.

I'm getting sick now. I have to stop .....

FreakinWeasel

August 1st, 2003, 07:06 PM

neoufo51:

Lets not turn this into another personal battle thread huh. I never called you ignorant but maybe I did come across like that. Sorry. If your OK with the government erroding your liberties that is your business. I don't like it. I have very different views about this and my opinion is that this is how the problem starts and it seems that once a law is passed it never goes away but gets added to repeatedly. Case in point there are over 20,000 gun control laws. Why? Who knows, but laws get added and the old ones don't get taken off the books. So when they started(and they started many years ago) to restrict what I believe is our freedoms and basic rights then that says to me that we can never go back. We will go forward but with less ability to enjoy life. It is a different world since 9/11 but it seems like they are reacting by encroaching on us rather than pay attention to the intelligence data that they already have. I may have a more unique perspective into this or skewed perspective if you want to call it that, but it's mine and they can't take that from me!

Rickio

August 1st, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by JennEmile
I'm sure many of you have heard about the FBI wanting to tap internet phone calls. Well, I wondered if anyone here would know exactly how you could do this? And, is there software that could "sense" a tapped phone call? :mellow

Phone calls over the net can be encrypted and not even fbi cannot un-encrypt them

Common sense will tell you that every call cannot be payed attention to.

And no one really has anything worth hiding. If you do then that's your problem.

I mean simple encryption should be good enough and if it isn't you got bigger problems

peace

Vlet

August 3rd, 2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by neoufo51
Extreme Hypothetical: Let's say you're telling your girlfriend sorry for prematurely ejaculating in her the other night. Big deal, the government has a number on that certain communication, but they aren't gonna care because you are NOT SMUGGING NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE US OR SOMETHING AND IT WON'T BE CONSIDERED "VIABLE" INFORMATION. As long as things are done to keep the bad guys, domestic or foreign, from hurting innocents, I say let them happen.

Ok, but what if you're talking to a close friend of yours who happens to live somewhere like Armenia about how you both feel the United States government is failing, and you both wish to see a new form of leadership take hold. You the begin to ponder the various ways something like this could happen, as well as the 'ups' and 'downs'.

If the FBI were listening in, suddenly you would be added to the NSA's (National Security Agency) and the DHS's (Department of Homeland Security) databases of possibly dangerous people, yet this manner of discussion should be completely protected by our first ammendment.

Krell

August 3rd, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Vlet
So why bother use a firewall? Why bother maintain any level of security at all then?

The fact is that personal privacy is dying, and protecting yourself from invasion of it should not be viewed as a scream for attention, but a firm statement that you aren't going to let authorities monitor your every move.

Dont preach to the choir, I was citing examples before you were here. The point is, that software is employed to scan conversations using voice recognition for key words while everyone else is busy doing other things. How do I know? I used to install these types of telephony servers.

Data mining software is looking for key words on the web, and in communications traffic. So I bid you not to use words like assasination and president in the same sentence.

Let me also remind you, that you do not own what traverses the internet. You may think that you do, but you dont. Privacy on the internet is is a false sense of security, and if youre really that concerned about what you say, by all means encrypt it.

What I stated was that most of all your "having a great time wish you were here" bullshit, doesnt need to be encrypted.

If you really want to encrypt everything you do just so you can "stick it to the man", then move to Idaho and have your issues.

If the FBI were listening in, suddenly you would be added to the NSA's (National Security Agency) and the DHS's (Department of Homeland Security) databases of possibly dangerous people, yet this manner of discussion should be completely protected by our first ammendment.

This would only be discovered if key words are flagged and I doubt anyone will add you to a list just for speaking your mind. If you made threats etc, then you door could be kicked in, in under an hour. Rightfully so, anyone that threatens the sovereignty and security of this nation should be dealt with immediately, lest we risk more 9\11.

.

Rickio

August 3rd, 2003, 07:03 PM

God you guys try and make things sound and be over complicated.
Phone calls can be encrypted with pgp or any number of other means and it would be a waste of time and energy to decypher it and most likely never would be dycyphered.
Sheesh....

So according to someones imagination someone gots hold of the huge pipe and can monitor every bit of data going through it?

doubt that , but oh well. lol

peace

TipYourBartender

August 3rd, 2003, 08:03 PM

A story:

Two years ago, the student newspaper I write for published an editorial. The basic point of the editorial is that the author was asing God to smite down and kill President Bush, along with several members of the government. It was supposed to be sarcastic and funny; we would not actually advocate anyone taking out the Commander In Chief, no matter how much of a jackass he is.

The editorial was printed, but the issues never made it to the public. In fact, if you were to do a google search on it, you would never find a copy of it. Ever.

The reason is that, somehow (we are still not quite sure), it was read by the US Secret Service. They busted into our offices, went through our Macs, burned all copies of the issue containing the article, and grilled the author and several members of the Press for hours about it, all in the name of national security.

Now, what does this article have to do with this thread?
I have two points:
First, that anything can be found out by the US government. Anything.
Secondly, even things that you think are frivolous conversations and jokes can be construed differently by people with flak jackets and large, large guns.

overdo

August 4th, 2003, 09:49 AM

the "keyword" search does not just extend to emails, it also applies to all phone calls in the US, most probably the UK as well and then *use your imagination here*. menwith hill in the UK monitors radio transmissions from europe and there are numerous other listening stations around the world. The NSA has an entire basement full of crays devoted to monitoring electronic communications, so if u say the words, they'll be camping outside your house by the following morning. as for encryption, if u are a known terrorist then i doubt any encryption will help except perhaps one-time pads (time consuming form of encrpytion used only once and agreed beforehand.) if however you are just telling your g/f how the sex was great last night in an encrypted email, i can't imagine the NSA wasting the millisecond of processing time to find out why.

if u think that email and internet voice calls will be any different then try it out, i think TYB has shown that they won't take it as a joke.

Lehk

August 4th, 2003, 10:38 AM

I'f i recall correctly, the "carnivore" system is powered by a 500 mhz PIII, anything other than a very specific targeting of already suspected individuals would fail miserably... also if you don't want the scanner bots to know what you said...

7YP3 |_1|<3 7|-|15 ... 3\/3|\| 7|-|0|_|G|-| 17 15 "P0551b|_3 70
D3C0D3 \/\/17|-| 4 C0/\/\P|_|73r 17 \/\/0|_||_D B3 4 B1g
P41|\| 1|\| 7|-|3 455

(type like this...even though it would be possible to decode with a computer it would be a big pain in the 455)

having to rewrite their data-mining software to find and recognize unknown-length strings as representing a single character would be time consuming... also there are many ways to alter your implementation on |-|4x0r 5p34|< ...unless sending special characters over the internet <§> is made illegal then data-miners are going to hava alot of work to do...
|-|4x0r 5p34|< also gets around most internet filters

Lehk

August 4th, 2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by TipYourBartender
A story:

Two years ago, the student newspaper I write for published an editorial. The basic point of the editorial is that the author was asing God to smite down and kill President Bush, along with several members of the government. It was supposed to be sarcastic and funny; we would not actually advocate anyone taking out the Commander In Chief, no matter how much of a jackass he is.

The editorial was printed, but the issues never made it to the public. In fact, if you were to do a google search on it, you would never find a copy of it. Ever.

The reason is that, somehow (we are still not quite sure), it was read by the US Secret Service. They busted into our offices, went through our Macs, burned all copies of the issue containing the article, and grilled the author and several members of the Press for hours about it, all in the name of national security.

Now, what does this article have to do with this thread?
I have two points:
First, that anything can be found out by the US government. Anything.
Secondly, even things that you think are frivolous conversations and jokes can be construed differently by people with flak jackets and large, large guns.

If i was in charge of the student newspaper the story of the events along with the editorial would have been front page of the next issue... I am actually a bush supporter (on most issues anyway) but that is the kind of thing that pisses me off real bad, and as long as you never suggested that a PERSON kill the president than what the secret service did was totally unconstitutional.

Krell

August 4th, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Lehk
I'f i recall correctly, the "carnivore" system is powered by a 500 mhz PIII, anything other than a very specific targeting of already suspected individuals would fail miserably... also if you don't want the scanner bots to know what you said...

7YP3 |_1|<3 7|-|15 ... 3\/3|\| 7|-|0|_|G|-| 17 15 "P0551b|_3 70
D3C0D3 \/\/17|-| 4 C0/\/\P|_|73r 17 \/\/0|_||_D B3 4 B1g
P41|\| 1|\| 7|-|3 455

(type like this...even though it would be possible to decode with a computer it would be a big pain in the 455)

having to rewrite their data-mining software to find and recognize unknown-length strings as representing a single character would be time consuming... also there are many ways to alter your implementation on |-|4x0r 5p34|< ...unless sending special characters over the internet <§> is made illegal then data-miners are going to hava alot of work to do...
|-|4x0r 5p34|< also gets around most internet filters

Man thats laughable, please dont make these kind of statements in public. I dont know where you get your information, but if you tell me that the FBI uses crayons next, I'm going to fall out of my chair.

I want you to read this S L O W L Y . . .

I Installed these types of servers, and the software, and I taught people how to use it. I showed them how to tap a live call from a location and listen to the stream, how to query records by any criteria you can imagine, such as time, date, location, length, phone #, person ID, . . .

This data is ALL saved for a specified amount of time, and can be burned to CD with encyption with 2 clicks.

This same technology can be employed to record and archive video surveillance, cell traffic, txt messaging, everything.

Do you honestly think, that the full on resources of the FBI, CIA, NSA, is limited to one shitty box at one location, and that the voice recognition or data mining software can be thwarted by your leetness?! Try $100K + per setup. ( and lots and lots of them) And that's your big solution, sitting around all day typing hoxor nonsense? I'm dyin here, tell me more!

Btw . . . what the Secret Service did was not unconstitutional, go read their charter, go to their webpage, that's WHAT they do.

.