Computer Confiscation

[cecil21]

I have a question to ask. If you are sued by the RIAA, can they confiscate your computer to look for evidence? Thanks.

[Aaron73153]

Not if it is a civil suit, becuase a civil suit involves the 2 parties in the suit the police are not involved and cannot confiscte your computer. In the cases that have been settled so far the RIAA presented the IP addresses and the files traded as evidence.

[FileHoover]

Originally posted by Aaron73153
Not if it is a civil suit, becuase a civil suit involves the 2 parties in the suit the police are not involved and cannot confiscte your computer. In the cases that have been settled so far the RIAA presented the IP addresses and the files traded as evidence.
You could not be more wrong.

Here are two people whose houses got raided by a copyright holder's agents and the police. Watch the video on the first one if you want to know what it's like.

http://www.xenutv.com/legal/erlich.htm

http://www.lermanet.com/cos/raid.html

http://www.lermanet.com/cos/wpost.html

[Krell]

That was from 1995


Nineteen - Ninty - Five


And it was one judge who was falsely pursueaded . . . he was probably 70.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

When there is proof of the violation, then a warrent is issued to secure the evidence, which means it will be forensically examined. Siezing a computer as evidence is very common in fraud, pornography etc where experts determine if there is evidence to support the allegations.

[FileHoover]

You're right Krell. The laws since then have gotten much more lenient on copyright violators.

[Krell]

Your sarcasm is wasted here.

Its not plausible to think that everyone accused of copywrite vioations will have their doors kicked in and their computers confiscated. We're not talking about cocaine, and the judicial system isnt prepared to appropriate the resources of law enforcement and 3rd party experts because Martha downloaded a friggen MP3 or two.

The main target are pirates. Selling movies for profit is an obvious violation and a serious matter. In order to be considered a "pirate" as a file sharer, you would have to be pushin some serious volume and infingement.

[FileHoover]

It is within the parameters of the law to allow this kind of nazi kick-down-the door raid on someone in a civil suit. That was the question that was asked.

The people involved in the above raids only posted written material, but Scientology is a fanatic cult of religious whackos so maybe they went overboard, but, it was all legal and instigated as a civil suit. The point being, a civil suit can involve getting your home searched and your property seized, which was the question that was asked.

The problem the RIAA has is, if they don't make some kind of impression to scare people, it's all over for them. If there is no real penalty for massive p2p activity, copyrights are virtually unenforceable. If they don't raid your home, they have no evidence that would hold up in front of a jury. All they can hope for is the victim to settle out of court. If a victim chooses to defend himself, and they are lacking crucial evidence, and lose the case, the defendent can sue them for frivilous lawsuit and they have very deep pockets.

Notice one of the college students who had his life savings confiscated already re-posted his software. He obviously wasn't too impressed.

[ROMANTICGUY50]

Originally posted by FileHoover
You're right Krell. The laws since then have gotten much more lenient on copyright violators.

To Krell and the rest, I certanlly hope not. (that we can lose our computers) Personally I Hate the the RIAA & MPAA. with a passion.
:devil RIAA & MPAA:devil

[Theinfamousone]

It's no secret that the RIAA or wheover internet "experts" they have hired to track down illegal P2P users (Dealie for one, LOL) have messed up. A lady that lives near me got a letter from the MPAA for sharing a copyrighted movie and she doesn't even know what Kazaa is. If people actually defended themselves, I think most likely there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict someone unless they seized their computers. If the person knew what was good for them, all they'd have to do is use a file shredding utility and bye bye copyright infringement evidence and hello defamation of character and slander countersuit.

Anyoen seen "The Core"? I thought that is the funniest seen ever when the swat team comes and raids his house and he is destroying any evidence.

[notbob]

so don't share or store questionable files on your main computer

put that stuff on a hidden network box or a wireless box in an unusual area

cops that serve warrants are not computer pros--they'll just come in and grab the computer you are using and assume that's the one they want

[Arnie Lerma]

My name is Arnaldo Lerma, My home was raided by the Scientologists back in August 1995.

I often check my own website's server logs in real time to see where the site gets mentioned. And File Hoover posted a reply to a question about being raided in a civil suit.

I took the liberty of using File Hoover's nick as my 'referrer' to login on this board and join this discussion.

I think it is important for folks to know a few more facts about those raids by the Scientologists.

1) In my case was RTC vs Lerma, Washington post, digital gateway, Richard Lieby, & Marc Fisher. The Judge was the same one Leonie Brinkema that is int he news for doing the Massoudi (spelling?) trial now..


Aaron73153 said "Not if it is a civil suit" and FileHoover stated quite accurately that Aaron was wrong, and cited my raid pictures site url as well as my freind Dennis Erlich and the Washington post's article about my raid for which they were rewarded with being sued ALSO and were added in an amended complaint.

Some details you folks should know about this sort of conduct. Years ago, the makers of bootleg 45' rpm records, would routinely get raided, and the thugs (RIAA) would bust up all their record presseing equipment...while 'seizing it'...the history of enforcement of copyright law is filled with examples of strong arm tactics.

Krell said ina reply to Aaron;'s post

"And it was one judge who was falsely pursueaded . . . he was probably 70. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. "


No...

February 1995:

Dennis Erlich was raided after Scientologists brought an Ex-parte ( means one party files a motion and gets a hearing - you have no chance to reply) motion in front of Judge Whyte in San Jose Calif. Both Dennis AND his ISP Tom Klemserud were sued, Tom got sued for refusing to cancel Dennis's account after Dennis posted some supposedly "trade secret and copyright" super duper secrets of Scientology, that must be kept secret in order for Scientology to continue to extract money from rubes.

August 5th 1995, Saturday morning at 9:30.. I was raided and sued.. after I scanned in a copy of an unsealed public court record that was in a public file in the Central District of California courthouse - Which became known as "The Fishman Affidavit"

Scientology was upbraided in open court for having "Unclean Hands"

I did have a cause of action, under a precendent setting case called BIVENS.. Where a man challenged and won for damages when a party 'under color of law' (eg they made a sham pleading to a judge ) raided and searched his property.

You see, RTC told Judge Leonie brinkema in 6" of ex=parte filings, affidavits, and legal mumbo-jumbo that Mr. lerma was "In possession of stolen property" belonging to the King of Con's (L Ron Hubbard)'s scam - $cientology.

Scientology was publically upbraided by Judge Brinkema, for not mentioning that what Mr. lerma had was an inncocent copy of an "unsealed public court record that was in a public file in the Central District of California courthouse"

However, the realities of litigation in america being as they are, no one wanted to do the counter suit... The only reason that we had money to defend Scientoogy's Trademark claims ( we won those outright ) and their copyright claims (they dropped their claims for the fishman document and nailed me on some downloads from a friggin .log FILE in order to avoid a public trial on the subject of XENU....( thats what the Fishman Doc was about ) was beacuse I had accepted an invitation to be a member of the Board fo directors for FACTNet.

As soon as Scientology found out I had insurance coverage, they raided and sued FACTNet and starteed another exepensive case in Denver Colorado under federal judge Kane.
(In order to run us out of insurance money, which they eventually did - now are you guys sitting down? We had TWO MILLION IN COVERAGE!

Scientology claimed in their own court filings to have spent one million sevent hundred thousand in RTC vs Lerma....

Judge Brinkema, having set my trial date, to be the birthday of
Thomas Pain, (http://www.lermanet.com/cos/libertyl.html) was so disgusted with Scientology's conduct, that even when they moved for (and won) for the innocent donloads (which just happened to be stuff that Dennis Erlich had posted in Februiary ) that when Scientology moved for their attorney fees.. She awarded them ZERO.

"the Court is now convinced that the primary motivation of RTC in suing Lerma, DGS and The Post is to stifle criticism of Scientology in general and to harass its critics. "

Judge Leonie Brinkema (http://www.lermanet.com/scientologylegal/main.html)

So who won the case? well, I did, cause I refused to take a gag, and I'm still here to tell you what scumbags Scientology is..

And the claim that the truth lies somewhere in between?

Judges sort of have to assume this, however, if one side is telling the truth and other side is lying through its teeth.. the Middle will still screw you royally, especially at $300 an hour.

When it came down to actually filing a claim against them for the conduct of the raid - The Federal Marshal's lounged on my couch while the Scientologists ransacked my home. This was done STAZI style, with intent to invoke terror and drive me over the edge..Under the Bivens precendent I could have sued RTC ( Scientology) for the raid, and likely would have won, - but I was unable to raise the funds demanded by the only lawfirm willing to touch this sort of 'scientology litigation' - they wanted $120,000 up front... and I raised only $61,000 before the statute of limitations ran out..)




http://www.lermanet.com/images/warrenmcshane.jpg

Above: Warren McShane President of Scientology's "Religious technology Corporation" (guffaw) just before he searched my bedroom

The REST of the story of that raid, which I fired rooms full of lawyers to tell, ( you see they did not want me to tell what really happenned ) is in a motion I filed pro se in that same federal court case. Which might scare the hell out of you, but I dont have a great memory for details, so I just tell folks the truth, and that way I dont need to keep track opf what i say or do...
Here is the real story of that raid.: (http://www.lermanet.com/cos/motion22.html) http://www.lermanet.com/cos/motion22.html

Oh and re "forensic exampination" - The "Independent Expert" Scientology hired, a guy named Jim Settle, who was once FBI, and I heard he left the FBI under 'a cloud' but I cannot prove this rumor, This supposed "Computer Expert" returned piles of the diskettes I had in my office. About 20 of them came back marked unreadable...

You know what? Those were MACINTOSH DISKS!!!.

I am of the opinion now that Jim Settle has a relationship that could not be called "independent' with scientology...

Anyway.... The complete OUTRAGE of the raid, and all the legal ramifications of that raid were outlined in a motion in RTC vs Lerma filed HERE (LONG but a hell of a read )

http://www.lermanet.com/cos/5janfile.html

more about this stuff is here:http://www.lermanet.com/scientologylegal/main.html

Well, now you likely know MORE than you ever wanted to know, about this. but we are past the era where folks can roll their own pro-se replies to a brutal, expereinced, dirtbag legal team.

Our founders intended for us to have a Government OF the people , BY the people and FOR the people... NOT what we have today :

OF the money, BY the MONEY and FOR the MONEY...

We are rapidly approaching living under a corporate dictatorship.

Our Federal Government's main job seems to be to MAKE the public think they have a voice and to make it appear to be a democracy.. while throwing great spectacles in the 21st century version of the Circus Maximus...

Sincerely

Arnaldo Lerma
Citizens Against Corruption (http://www.lermanet.com)

"The dispute in this case surrounds Lerma's acquisition and publication on the Internet of texts that the Church of Scientology considers sacred and protects heavily from unauthorized disclosure. Founded by L. Ron Hubbard, the Scientology religion attempts to explain the origin of negative spiritual forces in the world and advances techniques for improving one's own spiritual well-being. Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts" [Judge Leonie Brinkema 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion]

sorry for the long winded reply... Ive done 3 hours straight of late night radio and havent run out of things to say, if you want to listen to a couple go here (http://www.lermanet.com/xinger.htm)

[isus]

Originally posted by notbob
so don't share or store questionable files on your main computer

put that stuff on a hidden network box or a wireless box in an unusual area

that's the best idea. sure, you hafta pay for two computers, but... it is safe, for everybody and it is practical really.

think of it like this:
you connect wirelessly to your box in the attic.
you upload your quicken files and other important documents.
you get to dl'ing some exe, and you get struck with a new virus your av defs dont cover.

just clean your hd, and get rid of the virus. then you can easily replace anything you lost. also good for hard drive failures etc.

that's my plan... wifi'd box sitting in the attic... or maybe a closet... hmm...

[notbob]

Originally posted by isus
that's the best idea. sure, you hafta pay for two computers, but... it is safe, for everybody and it is practical really.

think of it like this:
you connect wirelessly to your box in the attic.
you upload your quicken files and other important documents.
you get to dl'ing some exe, and you get struck with a new virus your av defs dont cover.

just clean your hd, and get rid of the virus. then you can easily replace anything you lost. also good for hard drive failures etc.

that's my plan... wifi'd box sitting in the attic... or maybe a closet... hmm...

seeing things my way eh?

i won't tell if you don't

it really is a nice setup

[a97441]

does anyone know how, say for a random example you strapped explosives to a removable Hard disc, then when they knock on your door, you rip it out and throw it outside whereupon it explodes. now theres no hard evidence?

what can they do?

[FreakinWeasel]

What Arnie says is a bit scarry and then I see this story.
the fishmonger calls "Law Enforcement for Sale!"




Police Departments Turn to Private Money
By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN, Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK - In the nearly two years since the World Trade Center attack, the Police Department has posted detectives overseas, taught officers exotic languages and acquired a mobile lab to detect chemical or biological attacks — all of it courtesy of Pfizer, Motorola and other donors.

The money is contributed to the New York City Police Foundation, a little-noticed charity whose marriage of philanthropy and public safety is being replicated nationwide.

Police departments with shrinking budgets and a growing list of duties are using nonprofit foundations to solicit donations for new, and sometimes controversial, projects.

"Running a modern police department is not a cheap proposition," said Karen Wagener, president of the Los Angeles Police Foundation. "The model of having these public-private partnerships is the way things are going."

In the past five years alone, at least 10 foundations have been launched around the country, said New York City Police Foundation president Pam Delaney, whose group gives seminars on establishing them. Atlanta, Detroit, Omaha, Neb., and Oakland, Calif., all have police foundations based at least in part on New York's.

In Oregon, the Portland Police Foundation sent the chief and seven officers to a 10-day Spanish-immersion course in Mexico. In Los Angeles, the foundation bought digital cameras for domestic violence investigations and telescoping mirrors that enable bomb squads to examine hard-to-see places.

Los Angeles' new chief, former New York Police Commissioner William Bratton, is personally raising hundreds of thousands of dollars for L.A.'s foundation.

Critics question whether the practice of mixing private money and police work subverts the usual government protections against favoritism and conflicts of interest. Los Angeles, for example, has been criticized for designating money for consulting contracts with Bratton's former associates.

"When the police foundation goes out and buys things on its own, or hires consultants on its own, all of those protections are not followed," said Erwin Chemerinsky, a University of Southern California law professor.

Police and foundation officials say they guard against the possibility of wealthy donors winning undue influence.

Without question, some donors are helping themselves. The handbag manufacturer Coach, Major League Baseball and the Motion Picture Association of America earmark their donations for the NYPD's trademark-infringement unit, contributing to a $200,000 account that is used to make undercover purchases of counterfeit CDs, clothes and other goods.

Supervising Sgt. Tom McFadden said the funding does not compromise his unit's independence.

"We're not doing it on behalf of Ralph Lauren; we're not doing it on behalf of Tommy Hilfiger. We're doing it to get the person who's doing the counterfeiting," he said.

The New York City Police Foundation has been around for 32 years, but until recently, it funded traditional items, such as police horses. Nowadays, it supports more ambitious projects and has far more money to spend.

Its annual budget has nearly tripled since the World Trade Center attack to roughly $6.8 million in the just-ended fiscal year, enabling the NYPD to undertake projects without having to deal with City Hall red tape.

"It's just an easier, quicker way for us to fund things we need," said New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

The foundation provides $200,000 annually to pay the expenses of detectives posted overseas in cities such as Tel Aviv, London and Lyons, France. It arranged for Agilent Technologies to donate a van stocked with gear to detect a chemical or biological attack.

And it funded a $1.2 million high-tech counterterror operations center and $50,000 worth of lessons in Urdu, Farsi, Pashtun and other languages for detectives assigned to intelligence and counterterrorism.

The NYPD is also using the Police Foundation to move into marketing and make money on the new post-Sept. 11 affection for the police. The foundation has hired a marketing agency, the Joester Loria Group, that says it is licensing the NYPD logo for use on action figures, a stuffed plush German shepherd rescue dog, children's bicycles and sleepwear

[notbob]

Originally posted by a97441
does anyone know how, say for a random example you strapped explosives to a removable Hard disc, then when they knock on your door, you rip it out and throw it outside whereupon it explodes. now theres no hard evidence?

what can they do?

if you are that obvious about it, they'll charge you with destruction of evidence/ obstruction of an investigation

if they see you blow it up, illegal possession of an explosive device, endangering public safety, possibly endangering an officer, littering, environmental crimes whatever they see fit

[Wolfie]

Originally posted by a97441
does anyone know how, say for a random example you strapped explosives to a removable Hard disc, then when they knock on your door, you rip it out and throw it outside whereupon it explodes. now theres no hard evidence?

what can they do?

Aren't we taking things a bit extreme? I mean we are talking the real world not the movie Speed, lol.

[MusikBeatz23]

I downloaded some type of program "trojan like"(i had to save it to a floppy for it to work.), that will wipe out my whole hard drive in a matter of seconds just by instering a floppy, there where warnings saying it might mess up my hard drive but i take that as a better thing, as long as I dont get caught im happy.

[shawners]

All my songs arent copywritten, thats what the ID3 tag says =). okay I have a internal hard drive, i have txt files and playlist of my songs. I have list of burnt songs and mp3s i put to cd to store incase it comes to an place in time where i cant keep anything on the pc because of the raid. The guy arnold mentioned that they didnt care where anything was, they raided, searched and stripped every part in the home. Do we need to get a safety deposit box, or does it seem that anyone at anytime can come in, take all that they want, put a lien on your home, take account for what you are worth.. And sue you and drag you to court on daily basis, when you need to be working for the home you have. I am sorry but no amount of mp3 is worth this kind of mess, even 4000 i own. I dont sale my mp3, i dont make any profit, if anything technology and artist make more from me then i make for myself. I use ink to print the songs out, i buy the cd-r, the plastic cases, The fancy nice printer, the new pc that can burn fast, the mass hard drive, THE mp3 player i own to take music on the go. THe 50 amonth DSL connection. I believe what they do to kazaa is a major scare tactic to get the USERS to drop massivly to slow the spread of MUSIC and video, to make examples of people and the power they have. But whos to say that do or die that you wouldnt see a single CD-r costing 11 dollars each to give back to the RECORDING industry. Or that a teenager cant own more then a 4gig hard drive. or cd burners who have to be linked to a network to monitor what songs your burning, or a software operating system that wont delete a mp3 after three days. Everyway they have fought in the past marks these things happening that much more closer. The TAX they may put on internet highspeed connections, to paying a only service fee to even have media that plays.

[isus]

Originally posted by a97441
does anyone know how, say for a random example you strapped explosives to a removable Hard disc, then when they knock on your door, you rip it out and throw it outside whereupon it explodes. now theres no hard evidence?

what can they do?

that's a little detail called 'destruction of evidence', and you could probably see some jail time for disrupting an ivestigation and what not.

[oops, notbob beat me...]

[FreakinWeasel]

How about just buying a removable sled to mount your drive to and get one of those small fire safes. When you not FS just keep the damn thing locked up. Unless they have an active search warrant for anything more than computer equipment, I don't believe they can't take anything they want. But there again I am not a lawyer.

[Krell]

Why not just entomb the whole thing in 8' of concrete, in a fire safe, that's packed with 20Lbs of C4 and nails?

Put tracking laser in each corner of every room, and when your house is raided, cut them to shreds.

[FreakinWeasel]

Here Krell, this guy did at least part of your request. Funny stuff for sure. http://www.phildowd.com/funny/techsupport.php

[isus]

Originally posted by FreakinWeasel
Here Krell, this guy did at least part of your request. Funny stuff for sure. http://www.phildowd.com/funny/techsupport.php

that was interesting. what if you kept the cement crap out of the areas that need ventilation? or maybe you could make better circulation by putting molding the cpu's fan up towards the power supply's 'in' fan hole. and then put a back blower to take care of the gpu, and bam. all done.

heavy, and still functioning. maybe. if you're careful. heh. but, most likely, not.

[PowerMan57two]

Originally posted by FreakinWeasel
Here Krell, this guy did at least part of your request. Funny stuff for sure. http://www.phildowd.com/funny/techsupport.php

Hehe, funny.

[Lehk]

Originally posted by a97441
does anyone know how, say for a random example you strapped explosives to a removable Hard disc, then when they knock on your door, you rip it out and throw it outside whereupon it explodes. now theres no hard evidence?

what can they do?

well... they can get you for POSESSION OF AN EXPLOSIVE DEVICE

and DESTRUCTION OF EVIDENCE... you would be much better off just hiding the external drive when the cops show up

[Lehk]

Originally posted by isus
that was interesting. what if you kept the cement crap out of the areas that need ventilation? or maybe you could make better circulation by putting molding the cpu's fan up towards the power supply's 'in' fan hole. and then put a back blower to take care of the gpu, and bam. all done.

heavy, and still functioning. maybe. if you're careful. heh. but, most likely, not.

cement is messy... weld in lead blocks untill it cannot be moved... or weld the case to something heavy.... like an old iron safe filled with rocks

[FileHoover]

What happens to a hard disk if you put it in a microwave?

[Krell]

the electronics will fry on the bottem, but the data on the metal platters will be insulated and protected inside the metal housing, youd be better off throwing in hot coals, or set the oven to Self Clean.

[FutureIverson]

The quickest way would be to use a magnet, i don't know how many times growing up people warned me about magnets and computers i would love a shot to try it.