why is p2p not stealing, REMIX

[isus]

can someone just ban the troll?

all his posts have been in those stupid ass threads... im just sick ofhearing this guy.

part 2 was a nice little discussion... now lets move on.

[wingnut2600]

I admire his tenacity, but I ignored whatever he posted every time... I just noticed that his threads were closed and he managed to piss off almost all of the mods. Ban him? I wouldn't be surprised if he already is. Will this stop him? Who knows?

Who am I to judge? The first without sin can cast the first stone.

Upon further reflection, I think that three strikes is out most of the time in life (even previous to the creation of baseball).

[Mel_Smiley]

ahmen bro. Tape players and VCR's never hurt a damn thing, P2P wont either. Its just an easy way for music CEO's to point a finger at where the money's going when its obvious the business is sagging because of econimic issues, mis managed profits(it cant all go in your pockets assholes) and just plain old bad music being produced. I write music myself and think music should be free. My music comes from my soul and im just happy when I can see some one enjoy something I created. FREE THE MUSIC

[metale]

Yeah... fuck off mark!!!


But in his first thread i was writting a looooong, msg and when i click on "post" krell had close the thread!!!! aaarggg!!!!!

lol.

[Winphuk]

If Mark truly has any questions, then this should answer it all.

http://geocities.com/winphuk

[Krell]

Yah I got plenty of aaarggg!!!!! for ya.


Listen guys, we ALWAYS have trolls, and lurkers, everyday. Why do you think that I and the other mods try to keep things on the up and up? Sephi commented about his in the crib, he's monitored them long before I ever did.


You cowboys that want to buck the system with warez talk and are always pushing the line, make us look bad, and jeapodise what we are really about.


These people will come and go, just dont give them any ammunition, and let it be done with.



And metale, . . pipe down already this week. : )

[Undermind]

I'm 50/50 with Krell on this one, I know it can get annoying hearing the same crap over and over, but once you've been here long enough it is inevitable, hell, even you said it Krell, or maybe it was another mod, but people are always coming and going and whatnot, you know what I'm getting at, lately I've been seeing a lot of the same old topics coming up as if no one does a thread search or anything, oh well, I just think maybe Krell was a bit too hasty, but either way I could care less, I'm still gonna p2p 'cuz I've already rationalized it in my head

[Ken17625]

hey metale, you cant say fuck here. Just thought I would tell you so you fucking know next time. actually you can say fuck, but alot of people dont like the word fuck so you might get in trouble using fuck so much here.

.................I give that a few hours to live......if Krell is not present on the boards because of the late hour(at least on the east coast). My post also for quoting yours.


Although he does live in Seattle, so he may get to it tonight

heres a bouncing frog for no reason

:fire

[Rickio]

it's all just funny, repetitive, boring and life at the zp news and zoo. lol


thing is folks forget that's it same ole stuff for us and new for someone else. but ahh heck who give's a heck.

still it does get hard seeing the same questions rehashed.

what can we do? re-invent the net and p2p and make new questions? lol
peace

[CTC Command]

Originally posted by Mel_Smiley
ahmen bro. Tape players and VCR's never hurt a damn thing, P2P wont either. Its just an easy way for music CEO's to point a finger at where the money's going when its obvious the business is sagging because of econimic issues, mis managed profits(it cant all go in your pockets assholes) and just plain old bad music being produced. I write music myself and think music should be free. My music comes from my soul and im just happy when I can see some one enjoy something I created. FREE THE MUSIC

I agree with you 100%--I write music too and all of it, copywritten or not, is sitting in "my shared folder." Along with a couple of Metallica songs, lol.

Originally posted by metale
Yeah... fuck off mark!!!

But in his first thread i was writting a looooong, msg and when i click on "post" krell had close the thread!!!! aaarggg!!!!!

lol.


Same here, what a coincidence--listen to this! I wrote a loooooong reply to his second thread, and when Hunter closed it I lost it so I sent Hunter a pm titled "aaarrrgghh!" Isn't that funny--great minds think alike, lol!

I didn't complain to Hunter that he closed the thread, but just that after all that work to reply, to see it go *poof* was frustrating. But as far as the topic, I feel as though I could re-explain it to whoever is interested, as long as they are not here to bust my balls. But if they're here to be obnoxious and piss in the pool, then fuck 'em, I say. With Ken17625's dick...

Originally posted by Mel_Smiley
hey metale, you cant say fuck here. Just thought I would tell you so you fucking know next time. actually you can say fuck, but alot of people dont like the word fuck so you might get in trouble using fuck so much here.

As Eric Cartman once said "Fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck..." And I recently saw a bumper sticker that really says it all: Fuck you, you fucking fuck" That's fucking enough out of me...

[johnboy5501]

Ban him? You gotta be kidding me. Ok his post may have been a repetitive one, but are you going to penalize him that severely cus he didn't do a search? Lets open up the scenarios: what if someone did do a search and couldn't find his/her answers, what then? Would he/she not be allowed to ask the question?

And another thing, I haven't seen that question asked here before. I would have been more than glad to have answered his question. Just because some people felt frustrated at this question that has already been asked, others like me would be willing to add to his thread and reply.

Give others a chance to talk in the thread. Don't automatically close it because you've seen it several of times...I haven't, I would reply.

[metale]

Hey peopleeee!!!

caln down!!

What i said to krell was only a comment.... no problems man! that "aaarrgg" was only a way to say.....
"what the f*ck (mel_simley) ...it's close...oh bad luck" and nothing else!!!!

ok.. and by the way... i think Mark is a troll, and a bad apple too!!!
lol.

[Rickio]

Originally posted by johnboy5501
Ban him? You gotta be kidding me. Ok his post may have been a repetitive one, but are you going to penalize him that severely cus he didn't do a search? Lets open up the scenarios: what if someone did do a search and couldn't find his/her answers, what then? Would he/she not be allowed to ask the question?

And another thing, I haven't seen that question asked here before. I would have been more than glad to have answered his question. Just because some people felt frustrated at this question that has already been asked, others like me would be willing to add to his thread and reply.

Give others a chance to talk in the thread. Don't automatically close it because you've seen it several of times...I haven't, I would reply.

The other Mods been here so long they don't have patience for certain things.
I think they should have let the question go and if it turned as they thought (into flames) then kill it.

they basicly don't trust zeropaid members to behave and be civil and discuss things. they might be correct. but I would have given him half a chance at least.

apparently they don't trust that guy, but that's how it is cuz of so much abuse on this forum by certain peoples

but what the heck, whatya gonna do? complain?

btw go ahead and answer the question.

personaly I say it's stealing and that's because of current laws.

but I think we are in a age of flux and we will need to rethink societies rules.

peace

[Krell]

Although he does live in Seattle, so he may get to it tonight

Seattle never sleeps. I saw it long ago, you never give me credit for the stuff I DO ignore.



Now johnboy5501, since you think you are knowledgeable and well informed here, youre not.

Just because you sign up for a "name" in order to spread your propaganda, does not make you a member. It makes you a spammer. (I ban spammers and those with agenda too, thus the ban threat) The issue wasnt about not doing a search, YOUR issue is about not doing a search, and studying what was going on.

And last, as much as you think this is a democracy, it isnt. No one signs up and decides what gets debated here, or how they will in fluence this site. So if I do not feel that it is on out best interest to hurl this site in to a debate that we have repeatedly, thats instigated by outsiders, then I will defend our right not to be engaged by them. Not you.


Lastly, the fact that you cant spot a troll concerns me, greatly. You probably get stopped by Amway people a lot. Now you let us do what we do.


.

[johnboy5501]

Rickio, to me it is stealing too.

The mods may have been fed up, but they need to take in consideration that there are forum members such as me that would have liked to answer, and see the development of the thread. I'd like to know what others thought too.

He didn't seem to be one of those "trolls" to me. He spoke well, and politely set forth his question. Nothing wrong with that.

I can see how others maybe considered trolls, those who come here spam, insult, rudely insist on their comments and questions, and revolt against the ZP authority. But some others, who just propose a question, regardless of it being already reiterated several times, should not be punished to the point of being banned.

And as I previously stated, what happens if a person has done a search and can't find his answer. Then I believe that person has a right to ask.

[johnboy5501]

Krell, I've registered here long before ES5 came forth with their program. I had done about 100 posts before ES5 came out, so I didn't register to do propaganda. How could you accuse me of that, knowing that I've posted way before ES5?

I am a supporter of ES5, but I'm not a spammer. I'd wish everyone at ZP would stop making that association. I support them, I don't publicize, solicit, spam for them...end of story.

[Rickio]

johnboy5501, excuse me but I think it's best not to take anything online so seriously.

It's all really rather silly and imature wouldn't you say?

laugh instead of stressing. personaly I really can't take anything seriously online. unless I'm communicating with friends and family. lol


peace out dude!

[Rickio]

Originally posted by Mel_Smiley
If I thought it was stealing I would no longer use P2P. Im no theif and its against my beleifs to steal anything. This is a liberation. A gawddamn revolution if you will, make no mistake about it. Free the music. A real performer can make alot more money by touring than off some one sided contract to sony records. Sadly, most acts today can't tour because they can't perform. Glam rock is far from dead. Excuse me for being bitter, I've got my own personal reasons, but the whole music biz makes me gag. Support your favorite "acts" by seeing them in concert, the way music is meant to be heard

I relate to what your saying but as I said we are in a state of flux and technicaly it is stealing. but that is defination and not what I feel to be the spirit of what it's all about. I believe all information should be free.
yeah the corporations have ruined the music for the masses, but there is and always will be good music. it just becomes underground and real music lovers always find it.

music is truly a mirror of our collective soul and good music reflects that so much more purely than music powered by greed.

lol

peace

[Krell]

I'm not going to let you walk away thinking I called you a spammer when I mean ANYONE . . . . you . . . plural . . they . . . whoever. It wasnt about you.


Here watch this:

"Just because A PERSON signs up for a "name" in order to spread THEIR propaganda, does not make THEM a member. It makes THEM a spammer"

THAT was the intent, the thought of you personally being a spammer never crossed my mind. Altho I admit if I had read it from your angle I would probably take it that way.

Dang, you caught on to that whole "you" thing so quick, but let this guy with his secretary and marketing survey off on a technicality . . . . . throw a flag FOUL FOUL

Personally, I have no intention of being in some bodies report. Now I want everyone to look at how much time has been expended because some asswipe strolls in here and decided we're going to bury ourselves, anyone see this as ironic yet?

[metale]

Originally posted by Krell

Now johnboy5501, since you think you are knowledgeable and well informed here, youre not.

Just because you sign up for a "name" in order to spread your propaganda, does not make you a member. It makes you a spammer.

Ok.. Krell you know i am your "friend" or something like that.... i don't know why you haven't deleted my account on zp yet, but i must say thanks for that.

Talking seriouslly (thing i never do), and with all the respect you diserb, i really think that, yes.. you were talking about johnboy. You said his "name". Or at least, you make that we all here understood that.
Ok.. may be is just an "interpretation mistake", but you must be more careful with that.

Peace.

[Krell]

In all honestly "friend" your command of English doesnt qualify you to interpret things that are figuratively speaking, but thx for stopping by.


example: Or at least, you make that we all here understood that

It's called clarification

Have some Chili for me wont you?

[Mel_Smiley]

Holy Christ! Thats the most I've seen you post Metale!!! Ever! Keep it up jabber jaws

[Rickio]

Originally posted by Krell
In all honestly "friend" your command of English doesnt qualify you to interpret things that are figuratively speaking, but thx for stopping by.


example: Or at least, you make that we all here understood that

It's called clarification

Have some Chili for me wont you?

Can we call it frijoles for peace?


nothing like a few beans to cement a friendship. lol


peace

[Feather]

well if i were a newbie here this would almost be entertaining. but since i have been here ofr over a year and a half this is getting stupid.

people whining why cant we do this why cant we do that. all the mods are assholes for doing thier job. why do i have to follow the rules.

get over yourselves people. this is a society of rules and we all must bide by them. do you all run around cussing at the police because they wont let you break the rules.

there are rules here and we have mods to enforce these rules. so let them do thier job and you do yours by following the rules. just like i tell everyone that complains about the laws here in the US if you dont like it leave and go where the rules are different.

Grow Up People

[d-koolest]

Did anyone actually read WinPhuk's rant? I haven't heard that good an argument on the subject for a long time.

Y'know what could be done - a paypal donation site or something for artists. Everytime you download a CD, donate a doller.

Just a thought.

And no you shouldn't ake online stuff that seriously.:wings

[grab_grab_the_haddock]

so the guy wants to start a debate which forces us to justify why we download music/videos etc.

I dont have a problem with this, and id be perfectly prepared to justify myself.

Maybe he was trolling, maybe he wasnt. Given that he is a newbie he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. His original post was well argued, polite and free of flames and contained no bad language or spam. Im betting his original post would not have been closed if it had been posted at UTC.

maybe in future we should just encourage newcomers to make posts on their new avatar or their post count.

[eivioolla]

Well said, as usual.

About the original question "why is p2p not stealing". When you steal something from somebody, the real owner no longer has what you stole.

Just as we can pretend that information is property, we can also pretend that copying is stealing, but it isn't.

[Siskabush]

well, gotta view it like me.

Its not stealing, im just sharing and showing off all my music to 250 million of my closest friends.

lol

oooo, 200 posts.

[Krell]

Originally posted by grab_grab_the_haddock
so the guy wants to start a debate which forces us to justify why we download music/videos etc.

I dont have a problem with this, and id be perfectly prepared to justify myself.

Maybe he was trolling, maybe he wasnt. Given that he is a newbie he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt. His original post was well argued, polite and free of flames and contained no bad language or spam. Im betting his original post would not have been closed if it had been posted at UTC.

maybe in future we should just encourage newcomers to make posts on their new avatar or their post count.

A wolf in sheeps clothes is still a liar by any other name, no matter how polite they are. While you may be willing to entertain this person who puts so much research and effort in a first post just to "help his son" , I am not.

You dont post like that, hell even scorchie didnt post like that, and he loves to see his own writing.

[NDGAARONDI]

They should pass a law so that artists have say x amount of commission from x sales etc. make it more favoured to the artist - bet the record companies would complain about that too.

Say I decided to watch one of my old classic wrestling tapes, started from the beginning and what did I see? "Video piracy is theft"......well......like yto know how they got to this.......oh well it's been said soooo many times.

I'm kinda getting used to these trolls now! That shankho person was one of them too. Oh and if they're trolls I'm an ent! lol :fire

[Tremaine]

In my opinion even if he was a troll he still got treated unfairly, he didn't cause any problems, and he didn't flame, so by now we should let it go because even if he is a troll the fact is he's gone.

[cheewei]

is kazaa consider illegal? I mean is p2p file sharing illegal?

[Dark Messenger]

Originally posted by Tremaine
In my opinion even if he was a troll he still got treated unfairly, he didn't cause any problems, and he didn't flame, so by now we should let it go because even if he is a troll the fact is he's gone.

i haven't really read this thread...maybe I should...but I will say this "trolls" are mythical fairy tale creatures...i won't characterise the person who asked the question a "troll"

but I will agree or defer to you that I am aware of what a "troll" is at it now relates to messageboards and or usenet postings..but now is more commonly becoming a part of most major bulletin boards like zeropaid and a few others.

A wise woman once said to me..that when you argue with a troll...he wins...when you curse at a troll...he wins...when you debate a troll...he wins.

so the only real solution we have against trolls is to ignore then..ignore them and eventually they will grow bored and move on...keeping up talking about their actions (if such was the intent of this person in asking the question) only accomplishes the mission of the "troll" if that was the person who originally asked the questions intent.

A troll as it relates to messageboards is usally a statement designed to stir up much emotion and illicit great debate and or discussion among the members of a bulletin board...drawing their attention away from topical matters and focusing all the intention upon the 'troll post' whether this was a troll or not it seems clear it has detracted from more 'topical posting' and has become a distraction to the board.

As a 'member' of this community I urge the mods to be digilent in considering these things and act in accordance to their good judgement in the matter.

good day all.

-DM

[Krell]

A troll as it relates to messageboards is usally a statement designed to stir up much emotion and illicit great debate and or discussion among the members of a bulletin board...drawing their attention away from topical matters and focusing all the intention upon the 'troll post' whether this was a troll or not it seems clear it has detracted from more 'topical posting' and has become a distraction to the board.

That's why I shut him down to begin with.

[killswitch1968]

Ridiculous. This site is here to promote file sharing. Calling people trolls for disagreeing is NOT the way to serve this sites functionality.

Rather, engage in a discussion, convince him otherwise, or just ignore the post. If you're sick of answering the same questions over and over, make an FAQ sticky, and quote from it. If he's posed something not in that sticky, then it's PERFECTLY valid. Searches are nie impossible since wading through posts generated by ambiguous strings is futile.

Make a sticky, name calling is silly.

[Winphuk]

I think P2p is not stealing because..it's..it's just not!

[vcheewei]

if p2p is not stealing then what is it?
If you spend so much time developing a software, and people just post it to the Internet and let others download for free. What do u feel?

I think its stealing but what can we do? It there on the Internet. so we let others download it. We should also join in to download too. hehe...

[Winphuk]

Originally posted by vcheewei
if p2p is not stealing then what is it?
If you spend so much time developing a software, and people just post it to the Internet and let others download for free. What do u feel?

I think its stealing but what can we do? It there on the Internet. so we let others download it. We should also join in to download too. hehe...

If I was a software developer, I would make something useful for a reasonable price, so that the average consumer can AFFORD IT.
If it was something to benefit the p2p community, i would distribute it for free.

[Dark Messenger]

incidentally the search function for the forums was kinda dodgy last time I checked...so (hehe...forgive me) but until it works accurately and efficiently i can no longer diss nyoobies with "use the search button...that's what its for"

[Psilaxs]

Originally posted by Winphuk
If I was a software developer, I would make something useful for a reasonable price, so that the average consumer can AFFORD IT.
If it was something to benefit the p2p community, i would distribute it for free.

No offense, but i somewhat disagree, if you have ever spent time programming anything, even simple programs, you understand why they charge so much.


But on the whole, i do feel that a lot of software is grossly over priced.

[MGump]

Hello All,

Well, it has been several weeks now since I started a string asking the question if p2p was stealing. I have intentionally not added to this current string because I thought it was more interesting to see what this forum's community had to say to each other.

I found it interesting that these posts on the subject seemed to have drawn more people looking at and offering their thoughts on the subject than virtually all the other strings in this particular forum. Hmmm... I wonder what that says about the subject. Could it say that I hit a subject that many people have thought about and have feelings pro or con about? I suspect so.

I think it speaks highly of some of the people who responded to see that they were willing to say the subject should be debated and discussed. It was encouraging to me to see the results of the poll were in favor of not "booting" me. This shows open mindedness on the majority of the people's part. You folks are to be congratulated.

Those who favored booting me and thought it was wrong or a waste of time to discuss the question are entitled to their opinions but I think it shows their general unwillingness to have open minds and rationally defend their positions. I feel sorry for such people as they won't grow much taking close minded positions like that.

Finally, I found it most interesting that there were several posts that either flat out said or inferred that they felt p2p was stealing. So, it sounds to me like some people do think p2p is stealing but they still do it. We all do things we know are wrong at times to varying degrees but most of us feel some sense of guilt and remorse that we do so. It is those who don't have any feelings of guilt when they do something that is wrong who worry me. If a person does something that they think is right or justified in some way, as many of the posters on this subject seem to feel, then I am OK with saying that they should continue to act in that way just as long as they are willing to be open to consider what others opinions on the practice are and that maybe they could be wrong. Of course, the other people who have opposing opinions (like myself) could be wrong too. We won't know unless we are open to discussions like this though.

I find this subject most interesting and have enjoyed following the responses. I think the root cause for many of the people involved in the p2p community is this feeling that big business is screwing the artists and consumers. This may or may not be true. As I said in an earlier post, I am not at all involved in the industry or the music community enough to speak with any authority on this subject. What I do feel I can speak to with some authority is the idea that some person(s) or business who spends effort and money to create something like music should get rewarded for their efforts. The degree of reward is debatable which I think is really the question but the p2p file sharing seems to me to favor mainly the consumer and not reward the producers of the product who are the musicians, technicians, record company producers, distributers and retailers. A fair return on investment should be and must be made or the business will eventually fail and the product will not be available. There is another thread on this subject in this forum that has some good discussion so we probably don't need to go into it any more here.

In the long run, this p2p concept will prove right or wrong by itself. I find it interesting to discuss it and appologize to anybody who might have felt I was attacking them. That was not my intent. My purpose was to foster a discussion and maybe help people see other people's opinions on the subject and maybe change their own opinion if they heard pursuasive arguments to the contrary of their own.

Mark (your favorite Troll you love to hate - or at least some of you do) :-)

P.S. I suppose I should be considered a troll since what I think of as the idea of trolling in the fishing sense is to put some bait out and move it along in hopes of attracting fish. This was part of my intent, to raise a question to get some discussion and opinions expressed. It appears to have worked!

[Ken17625]

P2P networks themselves I don't consider illegal, as it is up to the users to share what they share. It might be copyrighted material, it might not be. Downloading/Sharing copyrighted material IS stealing. Its theft.


Now with that out of the way, i'd just like to say that I really don't care.

I guess i'm a theif!

[NDGAARONDI]

Oh God...........here we go again.............filesharing is theft..............oh well tried explaining how it wasn't damn lol

:fire :fire :fire

[Krell]

Finally, I found it most interesting that there were several posts that either flat out said or inferred that they felt p2p was stealing. So, it sounds to me like some people do think p2p is stealing but they still do it. We all do things we know are wrong at times to varying degrees but most of us feel some sense of guilt and remorse that we do so. It is those who don't have any feelings of guilt when they do something that is wrong who worry me. If a person does something that they think is right or justified in some way, as many of the posters on this subject seem to feel, then I am OK with saying that they should continue to act in that way just as long as they are willing to be open to consider what others opinions on the practice are and that maybe they could be wrong. Of course, the other people who have opposing opinions (like myself) could be wrong too. We won't know unless we are open to discussions like this though.

You're an RIAA troll if there ever was one. I hope youre done with the guilt trips and manipulation, because I am done with you.

The rest of you, stop being so DAMNED naive!

[riderx]

confessions from a file sharer part 1 of 10 million.

serious though this is a p2p site and sure u must understand that people share files etc.
No one needs to hear people say that p2p file sharing is wrong.
i think u should dedicate or make a site called *againstp2psharing.org * or something.
I do think since you presented your self in a respectable manner then people can hear u out. I read what you said and it seems to me that you want to get opinions but yet try to make others feel bad for p2p.

I may be wrong but this isnt the place for it.
precisely the opposite will occur people will outright tell you to go fuck yourself or mind your business.
i am going to be nice *since my new persona is friendly today*
this is what you should do if u want to be takin serious stay in one thread with this issue of yours.

now my opinion on the issue of filesharing.
I do p2p and i share. i do respect artists and i do support them.
I just think its up to other individuals to decide whether they should do p2p sharing or not.
and they dont have to read the thread u posting about your feelings and stuff.
but to me it seems like u want others to get an idea about the consequences of p2p sharing. ok u made your point but now its time to let it go and let others express themselves and if u want to respond fine. but dont judge others if they tell you that u a spammer or whatever.
best thing to do is just read others opinion and if u had something else to add do it.
and one other note just because people do p2p it doesnt mean they arent still supporting the artists.
i do p2p for several reasons. to get to know new artists.
to get exposed to new music, movies etc.

i support them. btw i remember way bak when i had a dial up connection and was new into the computer scene i use to buy shareware cds and try it out and then after that i brought the software for the shareware i like.
u know to me p2p is like samplin stuff if u like it u buy it. sometimes people cant afford to buy stuff and p2p lets them get it otherwise. for education purposes i think p2p should be legal and regardless if its illegal or not p2p sharing will be around. and btw p2p is legal in the court of law.
anyhows i ran my mouth to much.
peace dude
or dudeette


special shout out to a couple of peeps
xs*
and t*
later

[NDGAARONDI]

I never heard anyone use this comparison, but this is what I do: P2P is a better alternative to libraries and rental stores. Especially true if you live in a small town, and not a city or even worse, a village lol

Well that's all I'm saying........

[Winphuk]

Gump,

People that post on this site are generally grounded in the philosophy which morally supports file sharing. It's not closed minded to be wary of a Newbie stumbling into our forums and start posting threads questioning the morals of file sharing.
I think the least to say, that it's off color. If you want to know more about the file sharing community, I suggest a little more reading and less posting, and you should definetly wait a while before starting any threads, except to ask technical problems or just to introduce yourself.
By signing this : Mark (your favorite Troll you love to hate - or at least some of you do) :-) , you have made that distinction between you and us.
I don't believe in banning you, but you should at the least, be ignored.
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